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Considering how badly the previous BA thread has been received I thought I'd start up the
conversation again with a brand new idea that (hopefully) makes BA competitive, fun and able to
stick to their theme, whilst (again hopefully) promotes some constructive and critical thinking on the subject.

Bare in mind this is from an Eldar player who has only played against the boys in red - please forgive me if I make some small mistakes here and there

Now the first problem about their character is that they are an assault based army like SW but don't have the overwhelming amount of special rules that let get there or hit hard enough. Unfortunately since basic marines are very easy to kill and a CC unit's offensive output drops significantly with each loss, and the sheer amount of firepower they have to make on approach is staggering and even then, a basic CC attack is hardly threatening. So we need improve their durability or ability to get into CC and increase their offensive output, as I'm sure Martel would agree - a Riptide shouldn't be beating these guys in close combat.
Secondly, BA have been treated like marines -1 for a while now with reduced stats for some units or flat out absent from BA's catalog of units for some inexplicable
reason, that's unacceptable for me...

So lets get started:


House keeping:

Scouts are WS/BS 4

Dreadnoughts of all variants get 4 attacks base (unless stated later on)

Blood Angels get access to Stormhawk Interceptors and Storm Talons

Blood Angels get access to Centurions of both Variants with their full compliment of weapons

Predators, Vindicators, Whirlwinds, Hunters and Stalkers get squadron benefits (if they are not in the codex, have them added)

(Since BA have some pretty potent psykers themselves) Blood Angels have access to the Librarius Conclave formation - Librarian Dreadnoughts and/or Mephiston may taken as part of the formation.

BA have access to Chapter Masters to represent successor chapters (if they haven't already got them in the 'dex)

Devastators get their full compliment of weapons

Flavor rules:

Chapter tactics:
- Units equipped with Jump packs inflict D3 Hammer of Wrath attacks in close combat
- Models with Blood Angel chapter tactics have a Feel No Pain (4+) against wounds caused in Overwatch and Interceptor based attacks.
-Jump packs may be used in both the Assault phase and Movement phase.

If a Captain/ Chapter Master or Chaplain is equipped with a jump pack, Assault Marines become troops choices

Jump packs may be used in both the Assault phase and Movement phase

Assault Marines, Sanguinary Guard, Death Company and Death Company Dreadnoughts gain Furious Charge (don't know if they have that naturally or not)


Unit Updates:

- Assault marines:

For every 2 marines in the unit a model may replace a close combat weapon for a power weapon (5 points per model) a Power fist (15 points) or a Thunder hammer (20 points)

- Sanguinary Priest:

Friendly units with the Blood Angels chapter tactics that are within 12" of the Priest gain Feel no Pain (5+). Blood Angel units that are within 12" of the priest and are also in close combat gain Feel no Pain (4+).

- Death Company:

Death Company have Rage, Rampage and +1 initiative when they initiate a charge

At the beginning of either player's Assault phase if the Death Company are within 8" of an Enemy unit they must declare a charge regardless of any rule that would normally not permit them from doing so. If there are multiple Enemy units within 8" of the Death Company you may choose the target.

For every 2 Death Company marines in the unit you exchange a model's boltgun/close
combat weapon with a Power Weapon (5 points) a Power fist (10 points) or a Thunderhammer (15 points)

The Death Company have Feel No Pain (4+) this becomes Feel No Pain (3+) when in combat.
(This may seem over the top but for their price point and the addition of Wulfen/ Thunder Wolves and all other nasties out there I think it's alright. Whilst they are tanky in combat, a plethora of high strength weaponry will really hurt them outside of combat ... plus charging out of turn sounds fun and unique whilst at a price point that it shouldn't really be spammed.)


- Sanguinary Guard:

Sanguinary Guard have 2 wounds each and a 4+ invulnerable save at 35 points per model (in comparison to T6 Wraithblades and takes up a valuable Elite slot I think it's fair
to increase their durability inside and outside combat)

One model must be equipped with a banner.

- Furioso Dreadnought:

has 5 attacks base

May be taken in units of 3

Has Rampage

Friendly units within 6" of the dreadnought reroll failed moral and pinning checks.

- Death Company Dreadnought:

May be taken in units of 3

Has Rage, Rampage, Furious charge

Death Company Dreadnoughts ignore every result on the vehicle damage chart other than
'Explodes' (they still must take a hull point of damage for every penetrating or
glancing hit taken) and may never be immobilized due to a dangerous terrain test

Death Company Dreadnoughts have the It Will Not Die (5+) Special rule, for every dreadnought that is still alive in the unit past the first, adds a +1 modifier to the roll (so if 3 Death Company Dreadnoughts are in a squad, you would pass the 'It Will Not Die' test on a roll of a roll of a 3)

At the beginning of either player's Assault phase if the Death Company Dreadnought is within 8" of an Enemy unit they must declare a charge regardless of any rule that would normally not permit them from doing so. If there are multiple Enemy units within 8" of the Death Company you may choose the target.



- Commentary -


Now don't get me wrong I'd love to add Grav cannons on attack bikes and Vehicles etc etc but i'm only going with units that have kits for them and I also didn't really want to have Blood Angels Grav dependent (although then have now been given access to it for fairness) but rather have their power in their unique units.

So with Sang Priest bubbles and IWND/FNP given to a few units I think their survivability is increased somewhat (as I imagine certain blood thirsty vampire super soldiers would be) and their power in CC is vastly increased with easier access to CC weapons and more attacks.

Cheese wise we have drop podding Death Company and their respective dreads coming out to charge out of reserve but can be countered by screening units and is expensive (plus DC lose their fairly significant jump pack bonuses by doing this) so they are too OP.


Soooo what do you think?

I don't see why BA should get things like Chapter Masters and Centurions when DA didn't seeing as in terms of their non-unique companies they're both codex compliant and DA don't have Chapter Masters for their Successor Chapters either.

pm713 wrote:
I don't see why BA should get things like Chapter Masters and Centurions when DA didn't seeing as in terms of their non-unique companies they're both codex compliant and DA don't have Chapter Masters for their Successor Chapters either.

It’s an issue I have with the DA codex as well, there should be DA successors and as such there should be Chapter Masters to represent them (as well as giving their special characters Ravenwing/ Deathwing special rules) they don’t have the Stormhawk which is fine because at least they get a unique flyer of their own I guess (which could use buffs to be honest). Green wing should have Centurions as well, it boggles the mind why they restrict units that bog standard normal marines have access to… so yeah I have enhancements in mind for DA as well but considering bikers are good and jump packers are terrible, I figure BA are probably more deserving of the first ‘enhancement’.

Fnp 3+ is ludicrous, and 2 wounds 4+ inv guard is crazy for a measly 35 points, they're just better terminators. Change d3 just to 2, we don't need more dice rolls. Take off using jump packs in Assault and movement, otherwise you become raven guard +1. Interceptor fnp makes no sense, just make it like blackmanes fnp when you deepstrike, or get rid of it entirely.

Why are normal assault marines getting power weapons? Those are reserved for veterans. And the point reduction for DC is far too large. Make it 5 or 10, but not 15.

And Martel won't be happy until BA get grav

At least this one doesn't have heavy jump packs

 Torus wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I don't see why BA should get things like Chapter Masters and Centurions when DA didn't seeing as in terms of their non-unique companies they're both codex compliant and DA don't have Chapter Masters for their Successor Chapters either.

It’s an issue I have with the DA codex as well, there should be DA successors and as such there should be Chapter Masters to represent them (as well as giving their special characters Ravenwing/ Deathwing special rules) they don’t have the Stormhawk which is fine because at least they get a unique flyer of their own I guess (which could use buffs to be honest). Green wing should have Centurions as well, it boggles the mind why they restrict units that bog standard normal marines have access to… so yeah I have enhancements in mind for DA as well but considering bikers are good and jump packers are terrible, I figure BA are probably more deserving of the first ‘enhancement’.

Honestly if you gave the same things to DA and either did the same or did an equivalent for SW then I don't have any problems with it. I just want to avoid the stupid situation of "both of these Chapters follow the same rules but these guys have special tanks and these guys don't because they lost them or something."

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Fnp 3+ is ludicrous, and 2 wounds 4+ inv guard is crazy for a measly 35 points, they're just better terminators. Change d3 just to 2, we don't need more dice rolls. Take off using jump packs in Assault and movement, otherwise you become raven guard +1. Interceptor fnp makes no sense, just make it like blackmanes fnp when you deepstrike, or get rid of it entirely.

Why are normal assault marines getting power weapons? Those are reserved for veterans. And the point reduction for DC is far too large. Make it 5 or 10, but not 15.

And Martel won't be happy until BA get grav

At least this one doesn't have heavy jump packs

3+ FNP is solely for one unit and only when they get into close combat for a very expensive unit, and with the plethora of high strength weapons with high ROF I think that’s a fair concession. I have special weapons on the assault marines to actually give them some punch in CC (especially against MC’s or other marine equivalents that they would normally bounce off – I thought giving them an upgrade to CC that is chargeable is the most reasonable change, other than giving them an ungodly amount of attacks I don’t know where to go with them to keep them relevant.)

Fair point with the Death Company weapons, but again I want them to be sledgehammers in CC and to be able to go toe to toe with Wulfen, Imperial knights, Wraithnights and other hard targets so I thought weapons were the way forward, I figure weapon availability was the way to go.

Sanguinary guard need defense, 2+ armour followed by 4+ is reasonable when you consider they are up against Wraithguard with D- scythes for the same cost, compared to Wraiths (fast and survivable) and Command Squad bikers (T5, jink, more offensive output) I think it’s fair.

Having more survivability against Interceptor shots really helps for an army that is reserves dependent and has limited fire power whilst increased survivability just screams ‘I’m a psychotic killer who is also a vampire’ it just makes sense they’d shrug off more pain when they are just about to reach into hand to hand… so I stick by that decision being somewhat fluffy.

Remember I am judging this in comparison to the Eldar Codex so I do intend for it to be at a similar power level.

I think this is pretty okay, the only two complaints I have is the "for every two models etc" in the Assault Squad and 4++ 2W in the Sanguinary Guard.

The Assault Marines are literally just marines that progressed past Devastator and are not yet counted as Veterans. That is no reason to give them that access to power weapons and the like. Leave them as Vanilla, but the extra jump pack traits BA have should counterbalance this and make them more viable.

The Sanguinary Guard are literally Honour Guard with jump packs, right? Give them their Glaive Encarmines, Angelus Bolters, and just leave them like Honour Guard with jump packs - it would not make sense to give them a second Wound. If you want to proceed with the 4++, fine, but give it to base Honour Guard too.

I like DCs compulsive and illegal charges. Very disruptive but it's a double-edged sword. Which is great, it creates a niche for both DC Dreads and Vanguard, who would otherwise be strictly inferior to Furiosos and DC.

I like the idea of an expanded Chapter Tactic.

- Furious Charge
- Rampaging Dreads
- FNP during Overwatch
- Dreads ignore vehicle damage during Overwatch
- Some reserves tricks

Interceptor is a good point, but maybe there's some other ideas that would also work. It doesn't have to be another FNP roll.

Anyways, don't forget BA still have Flyers, Speeders, Rhinos, Baal Tanks, Tac Marines, Termies, Land Raiders, special characters, and their own psychic discipline to worry about. Ideally it isn't just Codex : Jump Pack and Sang Priest.

Overall it's a decent start. Just don't overdo it with unit upgrades. If BA could bring in all their Reserves on T1, they'd need less survivability because they aren't arriving piecemeal.

Yoyoyo wrote:
I like DCs compulsive and illegal charges. Very disruptive but it's a double-edged sword. Which is great, it creates a niche for both DC Dreads and Vanguard, who would otherwise be strictly inferior to Furiosos and DC.

I like the idea of an expanded Chapter Tactic.

- Furious Charge
- Rampaging Dreads
- FNP during Overwatch
- Dreads ignore vehicle damage during Overwatch
- Some reserves tricks

Interceptor is a good point, but maybe there's some other ideas that would also work. It doesn't have to be another FNP roll.

Anyways, don't forget BA still have Flyers, Speeders, Rhinos, Baal Tanks, Tac Marines, Termies, Land Raiders, special characters, and their own psychic discipline to worry about. Ideally it isn't just Codex : Jump Pack and Sang Priest.

Overall it's a decent start. Just don't overdo it with unit upgrades. If BA could bring in all their Reserves on T1, they'd need less survivability because they aren't arriving piecemeal.

True enough, thats why I added the vehicle squadrons, Grav devs and Stormhawks and such, you're right that it's not just codex jump packs and just not sure where to go with vehicles to make them unique and not tread on other chapter's toes (maybe +2 strength when resolving ramming attacks?

I chose FNP for a defensive mechanic because whilst it's powerful, the absence of bikes makes that T4 very vulnerable to ID in comparison to other codexes and suited the crazed nature of BA, that said I'm open to more suggestions...

Reserves coming on T1 sounds good but I'm very conscious about the possibility of making BA a one trick pony with Alpha Strikes and stepping on other chapter's toes again (Grey Knights)

Sure, let's give BA's better versions of unique Chaos rules, because why should Chaos ever have anything that Codex: Plot Armour of Various Colours not simply get better versions of?!

Experiment 626 wrote:
Codex: Plot Armour of Various Colours

Lol, that's great.

Maybe giving CSM more units with Fear will help. Fixed

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I think this is pretty okay, the only two complaints I have is the "for every two models etc" in the Assault Squad and 4++ 2W in the Sanguinary Guard.

The Assault Marines are literally just marines that progressed past Devastator and are not yet counted as Veterans. That is no reason to give them that access to power weapons and the like. Leave them as Vanilla, but the extra jump pack traits BA have should counterbalance this and make them more viable.

The Sanguinary Guard are literally Honour Guard with jump packs, right? Give them their Glaive Encarmines, Angelus Bolters, and just leave them like Honour Guard with jump packs - it would not make sense to give them a second Wound. If you want to proceed with the 4++, fine, but give it to base Honour Guard too.

It seems like the Assault marine changes are not very popular so far, my main comparison was in fact the Devastators. They are the newest power armed brothers for the chapter and although newly inducted they can carry some of the most rare and sacred weapons available to the chapter (such as Grav Cannons) so my reasoning is why not on the other hand would Assault marines for BA be any different in how they arm their brothers? From a gameplay perspective, having every member of a squad armed with upgrades is not a new thing (see scatbikes) I thought adding more punch weapon wise to a key stone unit (and unfortunately floundering aspect) of the army.

Giving Honour Guard 4+ invul sounds like a good idea in perspective considering how restricted they are wargear wise... It just because that I never see Honour Guard on the table at all, I didn't want to try and replicate what I saw as a failing unit with the Sanguinary Guard - point for point you are going against Wraithguard/ blades and I figure heroes of the chapter should have that survivability in contrast to the DC's and Wraithguard's offensive output. (I just want to keep some of the coolest models relevant ) What about keeping the same stats but having them as 1 per detachment?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Sure, let's give BA's better versions of unique Chaos rules, because why should Chaos ever have anything that Codex: Plot Armour of Various Colours not simply get better versions of?!

Chaos deserves it's own enhancements - including legions tactics... I'll be doing that later

You don't fix the disparity between shooting vs. assaulting in the game by giving one army a bunch of special rules & added wargear/abilities that effectively make them completely OTT in assaults...
Instead, you fix the basic core rules that are the main cause for said massive disparity.

Otherwise, if/when a new edition comes that dials back shooting and makes assaulting easier & deadlier, we then end up with BA's being god-mode, while everyone else gets a wet fart gun in comparison.



BA fixes are relatively simple... give them the basic Vanilla fixes, (Scouts/Dread stat boosts, Grav cannon, slightly enhanced CT's, vehicle squadrons, relevant formations, 'Bloodcurion'), and slightly boost their under preforming stuff, such as the basic Glaive Encarmine which is actually a worse power sword, pts reductions were needed, etc...

What we don't do is give them Death Co. Dreads that are cheaper yet 10x better versions of 'Fiend deamon engines, superfied Beast of Nurgle abilities, FnP++ because 'Mary Sues must always win', etc...

Experiment 626 wrote:
You don't fix the disparity between shooting vs. assaulting in the game by giving one army a bunch of special rules & added wargear/abilities that effectively make them completely OTT in assaults...
Instead, you fix the basic core rules that are the main cause for said massive disparity.

Otherwise, if/when a new edition comes that dials back shooting and makes assaulting easier & deadlier, we then end up with BA's being god-mode, while everyone else gets a wet fart gun in comparison.



BA fixes are relatively simple... give them the basic Vanilla fixes, (Scouts/Dread stat boosts, Grav cannon, slightly enhanced CT's, vehicle squadrons, relevant formations, 'Bloodcurion'), and slightly boost their under preforming stuff, such as the basic Glaive Encarmine which is actually a worse power sword, pts reductions were needed, etc...

What we don't do is give them Death Co. Dreads that are cheaper yet 10x better versions of 'Fiend deamon engines, superfied Beast of Nurgle abilities, FnP++ because 'Mary Sues must always win', etc...

That's an interesting question to which I don't have an answer, how do you balance Assault with Shooting? Can't take away overwatch now that it's an established mechanic for a faction, adding reliability to assault ranges does not stop the ungodly amount of shooting some factions have, even being able to consolidate into another means nothing if you can't get there in the first place. Shall we make it harder to hit and absolutely destroy Imperial Guard and Tau in the process and making it easier to get cover saves means nothing if entire armies can ignore it. Shall we remove the amount of ignores cover in the game then and again damn more armies that cannot do a thing in CC?

Does making it easier to get into CC help vast disparages in Strength, toughness and mobility (wyches vs marine bikers for example) no it doesn't...

The only solution I can find is to make CC units good at getting into CC and being good at CC itself not because it a faction that's popular or has a predictably boring/ heroic storyline but because it's the most effective approach to making the combat mechanics work... make Daemons better or faster so they can work like the units they are supposed to be and survive in a meta that is dominated by shooting, not simply because shooting is good but because the vast majority of units in this game are shooting units...

Your solutions don't help units get into combat or even to succeed in combat once they are there, compare them Space Wolves or Harlequins in CC and they'll be beaten everytime point for point

Khornekin is the single most assault oriented army in the game, and it even works because it has the basic rules to make it so... Just giving them a mechanic that allows for army-wide/near army-wide boosts such as basic FnP is enough, coupled with their innate speed.

BA's have the innate speed - they really do! Between 'Fast' type transports, Drop Pods, Jump Packs, Bikes, Stormravens... they have the tools to get there. Add proper terrain density & terrain types, and the 'getting there' problem is moderately solved.
Yes, some of their units still cost too much, and/or are still stuck with their old 5th/6th ed statlines vs. the newer 7.5ed stats that Vanillas & DA's have. Add the relevant new wargear options formations & Decurion style detachments than came out well after the current BA book, and they're mostly alright.

Do BA's absolutely NEED Thunderwolf/Wulfen level assault units though? Gak NO!!!

Fix those few problem units and either tone them down and/or increase their pts to better reflect their actual power in the game!


How would *I* fix BA's to make them relevant? Well, for starters;
1. Chapter Tactics: Furious Charge, Descent of Angels (Jump Pack units only deviate D6"), innate FnP 6+

2. Boost relevant Codex Marine units, ie: Scouts WS/BS4, Dreads to A4, add Grav Cannon (remove amp across ALL Loyalist books), add Land Speeder Storm + Stormtalon/new fighter + Hunter/Stalker.
(absolutely no to Cents however, as BA's get enough other stuff to compensate, plus the fact that Cents really don't fit their image at all!)

3. Add relevant formations, ie: Libby Conclave (allow Mephy/Libby Dread) + add Telepathy, Skyhammer, relevant Flyer/Scout/vehicle formations.

4. 'Bloodcurion' detachment.
Ideally, I'd slightly alter the composition of the Demi-Company, dropping the required Tac Squads to 2, plus mandatory Assault squad w/Jump Packs, add 1 Bike or Land Speeder (in place of the 3rd Tactical). Hence, a BA demi-company would look like;
- 1 Captain OR Chaplain
- 0-2 Sanguinary Priests
- 0-1 Honour Guard
- 2 Tactical Squads
- 1 Assault Squad (unit *must* be equipped with Jump Packs)
- 1 Land Speeder or Bike squad
- 1 Devastator Squad

Add a formation bonus that gives all units +1I on the charge & re-roll failed assault distance.

If two demi-Companies (1 w/Capt other w/Chappy) & 1+ auxiliary are present, add Rage and +3" to all Run moves to all units in the detachment. Vehicles instead re-roll failed Dangerous Terrain tests.
- 'Free' Rhino or Razorback (upgrades must be bought as normal) to all units within the two Demi-Companies.
(free Pods is too gross, as they're already criminally cheap for what they do)

5. Fix under preforming units and/or wargear.
ie: Glaive Encarmine is Chaos levels of awful... Encarmine Sword becomes Str. user +1/ap3/Master-crafted/Two-handed, while Encarmine Axe becomes Str. user +2/ap2/unwieldy/Master-crafted/two-handed.

BA's are supposed to be near immortals who spend centuries learning art/weapon crafting... Thus, BA Artificer armour can re-roll failed FnP saves to represent the master craftsmanship & additional support systems that go into crafting it.
Likewise, each BA character can chose 1 melee weapon they carry, and count it as a Master-crafted weapon. (does not apply to any Chapter Relics)

Death Masks are fine with causing Fear, it's the Fear rule itself that needs fixing... (ie: ATSKNF shouldn't be 100% immunity, but rather allow for re-rolling failed Fear tests... failed Fear test should be 'fight at WS1/I1')

Boost their psychic Lore slightly.



Done. BA's are now solidly mid-lower top/upper middle tier.

We don't continue breaking the game by making everyone Eldar/Vanilla/Tau levels of obnoxious... Ideally, we make everyone DA/SW/Khornekin/Daemon level, and tone down the most offensive parts of Eldar/Marines/Tau to match everyone else.

Torus wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I think this is pretty okay, the only two complaints I have is the "for every two models etc" in the Assault Squad and 4++ 2W in the Sanguinary Guard.

The Assault Marines are literally just marines that progressed past Devastator and are not yet counted as Veterans. That is no reason to give them that access to power weapons and the like. Leave them as Vanilla, but the extra jump pack traits BA have should counterbalance this and make them more viable.

The Sanguinary Guard are literally Honour Guard with jump packs, right? Give them their Glaive Encarmines, Angelus Bolters, and just leave them like Honour Guard with jump packs - it would not make sense to give them a second Wound. If you want to proceed with the 4++, fine, but give it to base Honour Guard too.

It seems like the Assault marine changes are not very popular so far, my main comparison was in fact the Devastators. They are the newest power armed brothers for the chapter and although newly inducted they can carry some of the most rare and sacred weapons available to the chapter (such as Grav Cannons) so my reasoning is why not on the other hand would Assault marines for BA be any different in how they arm their brothers? From a gameplay perspective, having every member of a squad armed with upgrades is not a new thing (see scatbikes) I thought adding more punch weapon wise to a key stone unit (and unfortunately floundering aspect) of the army.

Actually, the newly inducted members of Devastator Squads are the bolter marines in it that no-one takes. They aren't immediately thrown in with heavy guns - the SM codex states that the new brothers hang back and call out targets for their heavy weapon brothers. AFAIK, they only get Heavy Weapons at the Tactical Marine stage when they move squads. I still don't think that such ready access to strong weapons is a good idea - leave that to the Vanguard Veterans.And scatbikes should not be the medium we judge ASM by - make scatbike more reasonable instead.

Giving Honour Guard 4+ invul sounds like a good idea in perspective considering how restricted they are wargear wise... It just because that I never see Honour Guard on the table at all, I didn't want to try and replicate what I saw as a failing unit with the Sanguinary Guard - point for point you are going against Wraithguard/ blades and I figure heroes of the chapter should have that survivability in contrast to the DC's and Wraithguard's offensive output. (I just want to keep some of the coolest models relevant ) What about keeping the same stats but having them as 1 per detachment?

Agreed. 2+ without a method for FNP or invuln hurts them, and forces them into a vehicle for transit. Sanguinary Guard would at least have added mobility. As for Glaive Encarmines, why not just make them mastercrafted relic blades?
Just treat Sanguinary Guard just like HG - can be taken in a Strike Force Command or as an Elites choice like any other.

Eldar and tau aren't getting nerfed. Aiming for middle tier ends a list up back in the basement again real fast. 626 doesn't understand just how ineffectual every current ba list really is. If fw is allowed, csm should be beating them.

This problem is NOT simple and if every change to make a unit effective in 7th ed is considered op then you might as well squat the army. TWC run over everything without trying hard and ba can't even beat any real assault unit in the game.

I think both Sanguinary and Honour Guard could work with an Invul Save. However, I think that they should doubly pay for it like Vanguard do.

Basically, the Storm Shield is how the Vanguard get their Invulnerable Save. An new piece of Wargear that acts similar to the Storm Shield in eliminating Additional Attacks, but provides a slightly worse Save may be in order for this type of situation. Maybe it would come with a bodyguard option for Look Out Sir?

 Torus wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Fnp 3+ is ludicrous, and 2 wounds 4+ inv guard is crazy for a measly 35 points, they're just better terminators. Change d3 just to 2, we don't need more dice rolls. Take off using jump packs in Assault and movement, otherwise you become raven guard +1. Interceptor fnp makes no sense, just make it like blackmanes fnp when you deepstrike, or get rid of it entirely.

Why are normal assault marines getting power weapons? Those are reserved for veterans. And the point reduction for DC is far too large. Make it 5 or 10, but not 15.

And Martel won't be happy until BA get grav

At least this one doesn't have heavy jump packs

3+ FNP is solely for one unit and only when they get into close combat for a very expensive unit, and with the plethora of high strength weapons with high ROF I think that’s a fair concession. I have special weapons on the assault marines to actually give them some punch in CC (especially against MC’s or other marine equivalents that they would normally bounce off – I thought giving them an upgrade to CC that is chargeable is the most reasonable change, other than giving them an ungodly amount of attacks I don’t know where to go with them to keep them relevant.)

Fair point with the Death Company weapons, but again I want them to be sledgehammers in CC and to be able to go toe to toe with Wulfen, Imperial knights, Wraithnights and other hard targets so I thought weapons were the way forward, I figure weapon availability was the way to go.

Sanguinary guard need defense, 2+ armour followed by 4+ is reasonable when you consider they are up against Wraithguard with D- scythes for the same cost, compared to Wraiths (fast and survivable) and Command Squad bikers (T5, jink, more offensive output) I think it’s fair.

Having more survivability against Interceptor shots really helps for an army that is reserves dependent and has limited fire power whilst increased survivability just screams ‘I’m a psychotic killer who is also a vampire’ it just makes sense they’d shrug off more pain when they are just about to reach into hand to hand… so I stick by that decision being somewhat fluffy.

Remember I am judging this in comparison to the Eldar Codex so I do intend for it to be at a similar power level.

"Plethora of hight str weapons with a high rate of fire" where's the rapid fire str 8 weapons? And yes, only one unit has it, but it's not like they can't have more than one squad of them. And how is a power weapon going to save you from an mc? Its the guy holding it, not the weapon itself. Give them 2 attacks base if you want them to have kick, but then you must update the other books aswell. And death company should not be able to kill imperial knights, or wulfen. Both are miles ahead in price. And why are sanguinary guard being compared to Wraithguard? That's like a 10 year old comparing himself to a heavyweight boxer. 40k doesn't need more cheesey gak. You're not as much fixing it as turning the notch up to 11. And you know blood angels aren't always succumbed to the black rage, right? They're only "psychotic killer who are also vampires" when they succumb to the black rage. Which doesn't happen every single time they enter combat, it is rare, because when they do they become death co.

Oh. You're comparing it to the eldar codex.

Recall that Vanguard are sacrificing an attack to get 3+/3++, this would be to gain a 2+/4++, which can be a significant difference. SG already don't get a dual-wield bonus. I think just making it an upgrade that must be paid for would be sufficient.

Martel732 wrote:
Eldar and tau aren't getting nerfed. Aiming for middle tier ends a list up back in the basement again real fast. 626 doesn't understand just how ineffectual every current ba list really is. If fw is allowed, csm should be beating them.

This problem is NOT simple and if every change to make a unit effective in 7th ed is considered op then you might as well squat the army. TWC run over everything without trying hard and ba can't even beat any real assault unit in the game.

Chaos beating marines? Lol.

Getting to the serious bit, if we're doing wishful thinking about blood angels why can't we have wishful thinking about nerfing the other dex's? Everything is possible in proposed rules. What do you think the chances are of sanguinary guard getting 2 wounds in the new codex? And of course TWC run over stuff, they're 40 points a model, 55 if you're playing them right. Is an assault marine 55 points? And it is OP, that's why it's being called op. And if you can't tell from the threads, most of them you yourself have commented on, overpowered crap is not welcome in 40k. Something I'm sure you can agree with on the riptide, although BA should get special treatment?

Because "OP" is the new normal if you don't want to autolose.

OP stuff may not be welcome, but GW is going to stuff it down your throat. I can justify all kinds of gak because codex Eldar exists. If they get why shouldn't everyone get it? Labeling something as "OP" doesn't help me as I'm being tabled by it.

Martel started the whiny Blood Angels doom chant a while back. Petulant, nay-saying that rivaled any positive statements or constructive collaboration.

But now he's right. OP, over powered, FREAKISHLY over powered is the new norm. There is no USR you could clumsily bolt on to the BAs codex and make it too over powered. Its either 3rd ed style reboot for all of us or, we cut the USR section of the BRB into confetti and pour it into our codexes.

 Red Marine wrote:
Martel started the whiny Blood Angels doom chant a while back. Petulant, nay-saying that rivaled any positive statements or constructive collaboration.

But now he's right. OP, over powered, FREAKISHLY over powered is the new norm. There is no USR you could clumsily bolt on to the BAs codex and make it too over powered. Its either 3rd ed style reboot for all of us or, we cut the USR section of the BRB into confetti and pour it into our codexes.

I don't know about that. A 7th Edition Dark Angels reboot is more what is needed.

I think Blood Angels could be half decent if you took the 30k rules for them as a base.

Encarmine Fury > Furious Charge any day of the week.

 Frozocrone wrote:
I think Blood Angels could be half decent if you took the 30k rules for them as a base.

Encarmine Fury > Furious Charge any day of the week.

And the same thing could be said for all the Chapter Tactics and incorporated in to Legion Tactics for CSM as well.

And I don't know who to blame more for inconsistencies between the two, GW's Citadel side or GW's Forgewrld side.

Honestly, I think that both sides should get together and nail them down for both Horus Heresy as well as the arrival of the Tyranids.

The biggest things I want for BA are:
-jink for jump packs. Apparently giant bikes are harder to hit than a guy flitting about both horizontally and vertically?

-keep furious charge/rage when doing disordered assaults. With 7e firepower, plenty of units don't make it to the fight. The ones that do have to pull extra weight and usually need to multiassault, which not only knocks out charge attacks but also kills our chapter tactic and the DC's rage. I'd be fine with still losing the charge attack as long as the other abilities worked.

-Oh and of course give them their full chapter tactic back instead of having it split into the CT, a warlord trait, and a detachment bonus.

Some other nice ideas are:
-terrifying strike: Whenever a BA unit wins a combat that it charged into this turn, all enemy units within 6" of any model in the combat must pass a morale test with the same modifiers as if it was also involved in the combat. Units may only be forced to take one morale test by this ability per assault phase.

-Hammer of fury: Any BA model may use an equipped weapon's profile in place of a standard hammer of wrath hit. This does not change the initiative of the hit, regardless of special abilities on the weapon.

Wild fury: BA units (pure) may always attempt a charge, even if normally not allowed. If the unit would not have been able to charge without this ability, remove 1d6 from the charge roll.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
I think Blood Angels could be half decent if you took the 30k rules for them as a base.

Encarmine Fury > Furious Charge any day of the week.

And the same thing could be said for all the Chapter Tactics and incorporated in to Legion Tactics for CSM as well.

And I don't know who to blame more for inconsistencies between the two, GW's Citadel side or GW's Forgewrld side.

Honestly, I think that both sides should get together and nail them down for both Horus Heresy as well as the arrival of the Tyranids.

Exactly this, I only omitted it as this is a Blood Angels thread.

I think the FW team should write all the rules, since they are having to design rules for both 30k and 40k models with their sci-fi releases (not too sure if they do the AoS/hobbit rules/specialist games too).
But with a single team writing the rules, there shouldn't be exploitable combos within the game. Main thing would be for a core ruleset release/update.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
The biggest things I want for BA are:
-jink for jump packs. Apparently giant bikes are harder to hit than a guy flitting about both horizontally and vertically?

-keep furious charge/rage when doing disordered assaults. With 7e firepower, plenty of units don't make it to the fight. The ones that do have to pull extra weight and usually need to multiassault, which not only knocks out charge attacks but also kills our chapter tactic and the DC's rage. I'd be fine with still losing the charge attack as long as the other abilities worked.

-Oh and of course give them their full chapter tactic back instead of having it split into the CT, a warlord trait, and a detachment bonus.

Some other nice ideas are:
-terrifying strike: Whenever a BA unit wins a combat that it charged into this turn, all enemy units within 6" of any model in the combat must pass a morale test with the same modifiers as if it was also involved in the combat. Units may only be forced to take one morale test by this ability per assault phase.

-Hammer of fury: Any BA model may use an equipped weapon's profile in place of a standard hammer of wrath hit. This does not change the initiative of the hit, regardless of special abilities on the weapon.

Wild fury: BA units (pure) may always attempt a charge, even if normally not allowed. If the unit would not have been able to charge without this ability, remove 1d6 from the charge roll.

Not adding much here, but, quoting for posterity: I really, really like these ideas. Terrifying Strike could be ruinous against the right armies. (It could be OP if the uninvolved units are subject to Sweeping Advance, but it sounds like they wouldn't be).

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The Assault Marines are literally just marines that progressed past Devastator and are not yet counted as Veterans. That is no reason to give them that access to power weapons and the like. Leave them as Vanilla, but the extra jump pack traits BA have should counterbalance this and make them more viable.

#1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

Why are normal assault marines getting power weapons? Those are reserved for veterans.

See this is just not true, because assault marines, in their true form, have power weapons. The only thing that suggests they don't is that the game at the moment doesn't give them any, but the game, at the moment, is wrong.

Assaults squads in the game could equip every model with a power weapon or power fist, and they could in the background, although that's not really a detail that the background cares about. The same Codex that stopped allowing power weapons also stopped allowing anything that wasn't an HQ ru have more than one wound or to be an IC. The only way you could get a tech marine was to upgrade a member of the command squad to have its equipment. There has never been any suggestion that tech marines are members of command squads and never allowed to leave that squad to do anything else; that was just the somewhat dumb convention that applied at the time.

There were also attack bikes that didn't have two wounds, they just had a 2+ armor save to simulate there being two riders. You just weren't allowed to have a space marine non-HQ model with more than one wound, and you weren't allowed to have marine non-characters with optional ccw upgrades.

So there is only one thing that shows assault squads not having ccw upgrades, and that only exists for some kind of weird distortion that happened when GW started making the rules better for high model count games. If the Codex were just about verisimilar squad equipment, then normal assault squads would have PW and PF options for any number of members.

It's not like it would actually be good, it's just a 1a s4 model.