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I don't intent do use any such HQ , but I'm curious just how durable they can be. Let them jetbikes shoot all day long to no avail!
Let's allow choosing permanent buffs within reason. So choose your warlord trait, choose one! chaos boon and so on.
No psychic powers, no random mutations such as the possessed mutations that only last a turn. No warpstorm effect etc.
Unit synergy allowed, assuming its semi permanent as long as they stick around. For example, gaining a special rule from joining a unit. But only from one unit or IC, just to keep things manageable.
Including getting access to a relic from a battle brother codex, as long as it's something like the crimson slaughter crozius, that gives everybody within 6" zealot. All the time.
No Points limit. Forgeworld allowed. No formation bonus. Multiple relics per character still allowed where they were before the draft.
Offensive stats like higher initiative can be counted for defensive properties too. At least in melee it will mean taking less hits.

I only really know csm, so here's my take. I'm torn between a Crimson slaughter Juggerlord or a CS Nurgle lord on palanquin.
Both would have similar gear. Both roll feel no pain from the personal warlords traits and don the daemonheart with their respective mounts and marks. The one boon is spent on eternal warrior.
So in terms of stats, they both have T5, eternal warrior, fnp, iwnd, fear and a 2+/4++. Juggerlord has 4 wounds, nurgle lord has 5 wounds. Fear may not matter 50% of the time, but that means it's still going to be useful 50% of the time, so it does help.
The Nurgle lord is slightly tougher and can eat almost 300 bolter rounds before he collapses, not counting iwnd! and thanks to T5 they can both still fnp powerfists. The nurgle lord can't get a decent weapon though and the khorne lord gets the aobf and is much faster thanks to cavalry, which will make it that much harder for the opponent to put wounds on him.
The juggerlord gets shot at less due to getting in to assaults faster and more reliably and he's more comfortable once there. Though, if you can somehow fuel the blade of the relentless fast enough with the nurgle lord, I'd give it to him.

**edit** I forgot to add the dimensional key to both. Once activated, it makes it harder for people to charge you due to difficult terrain and when they do, they take dangerous terrain and go last unless they have grenades.

Nurgle lord has nifty shrouded rules right?

Not in the configuration that I chose. Though it would be enough to join him to a unit that has shrouded to get it. Wouldn't do him much good though, short of sitting in a ruin, he already has a 4+ invulnerable. But if you give him a bike so he can jink, then he's down to only 3 wounds. I'd rather stick with the sigil on palanquin then.

Potentially Urien Rakarth. Or commander Smashfether. But hey I am DE and CSM biased, yes I am sure a Nurgle Lord could do better.

If you can choose stuff, I would say the Great Unclean One.

Iron Arm makes it a T10 model and it can receive 3+ armor from Gifts and a 4++ innately. It can also gain IWND I believe and this is all on top of Shrouded. Smashfether might have incredible armor and invul saves, but the GUO just has straight up toughness and wounds.

I gotta note that this is purely DURABLE. The GUO is so ridiculously slow that it might not be able to actually do anything.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
If you can choose stuff, I would say the Great Unclean One.

Iron Arm makes it a T10 model and it can receive 3+ armor from Gifts and a 4++ innately. It can also gain IWND I believe and this is all on top of Shrouded. Smashfether might have incredible armor and invul saves, but the GUO just has straight up toughness and wounds.

I gotta note that this is purely DURABLE. The GUO is so ridiculously slow that it might not be able to actually do anything.

Choose yes, but only to a degree. I said no psychic powers. They're just too random. It's random to get the power you want, then random to manifest it and then it still might get cancelled by the opponent. Plus pretty much everybody gets those. I'm more interested in raw durability. Choosing a warlord trait is a once per game thing that lasts all game long and you get to reroll it more often than not, so I figured it would be ok. The Gifts are ok in that sense, you roll once and keep them. So T10 is out, but he's still pretty scary even with T7.

Overall, pretty similar to the nurgle lord. More toughness and 1 more wound but no feel no pain? How about eternal warrior? How useful is shrouded though without the ability to jink? Most of the time his 4++ will be better I'd say. Deepstriking him is pretty nice though. You'd need dreadclaw for that with the nurgle lord.
The GUO can't hide in a unit though. Still, the GUO seems much more feasible to actually play. And probably better right up until you face a weapon with instant death, assuming it doesn't have EW.

You can do some crazy stuff with an Iron Hands Chapter Master. Jacked up Nurgle-lord, Troll-mode Orikan.

25 point basic Inquisitor held back in reserves for as long as possible and then deployed in the most remote part of the board, out of line of sight.

As a martial arts instructor once told me... best way to win a fight is to not be there.

 Zan wrote:
You can do some crazy stuff with an Iron Hands Chapter Master. Jacked up Nurgle-lord, Troll-mode Orikan.

Like? I want examples, details ^^.
I've never heard of orikan, what's that? And I know Smashfether is a thing, but I don't know the details. Something 2+/3++/silly fnp roll with T5 and EW? He's not played around here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kriswall wrote:
25 point basic Inquisitor held back in reserves for as long as possible and then deployed in the most remote part of the board, out of line of sight.

As a martial arts instructor once told me... best way to win a fight is to not be there.

XD

Realistically thought, you need to define what you mean by toughest. Is it who can stand still and eat the most bolter shots in a row? Who can stand the most rounds of shooting from a basic 10 man Tactical Squad? Who can stand still and take Orbital Bombardments over and over? Who can survive the most rounds of combat with infinite waves of Orks?

All of these are going to have different answers. Each "toughest model ever!" isn't as tough as someone else in a different situation.

An AM Tank Commander can absorb an infinite number of bolter rounds. After all, S4 has a hard time glancing AV14. That makes him tougher than the Nurgle Lord who can only take ~300 bolter shots, right? Only if we're talking bolter shots. Vehicle can asplode pretty easily these days.

If that's the case the GUO can end up with:

7 wounds (Greater Gift)
3+ FnP (one Daemonic Gift and a Warlord Trait)
IWND (same gift as the 7 wounds)

Without Iron Arm, the GUO loses a lot in the form of the T10 and EW. This loadout is instead pretty much impervious to anything short of a lascannon or railgun round (even autocannons and Krak Missiles will find it hard to harm the GUO). However a single Instant Death wound will put him down. Compared to Smashfether, the GUO is a lot more durable against small-arms fire and near-equal durability against single-shot high strength attacks. Against D and the likes though, Smashfether beats him out simply because the latter has EW.

However I would still include Iron Arm as the majority of GUO strategies I've seen are to fish for that single power and casting it at all costs.

Necron Overlord on Catacomb Command Barge (13/13/11 3HP) or (11/11/11 3HP) the Overlord is T5 3W
Nightmare Shroud (2+)
Solar Thermasite (Reroll Saves of 1)
Phylactery (IWND for him and Barge)
Phase Shifter (4++)
Reanimation Protocols (basically a 5+FNP)
Plus i can choose who you're hitting with your shots

Its Dirty

 Kriswall wrote:
Realistically thought, you need to define what you mean by toughest. Is it who can stand still and eat the most bolter shots in a row? Who can stand the most rounds of shooting from a basic 10 man Tactical Squad? Who can stand still and take Orbital Bombardments over and over? Who can survive the most rounds of combat with infinite waves of Orks?

All of these are going to have different answers. Each "toughest model ever!" isn't as tough as someone else in a different situation.

An AM Tank Commander can absorb an infinite number of bolter rounds. After all, S4 has a hard time glancing AV14. That makes him tougher than the Nurgle Lord who can only take ~300 bolter shots, right? Only if we're talking bolter shots. Vehicle can asplode pretty easily these days.

Ah good point. Let's limit it to infantry in its various flavours(infantry, bikes, etc) and monstrous creatures then. They all use comparable stats at least.
I suppose I meant tough vs common threats. So lots of small arms fire aka bolters as well as some high strength/low AP weapons and their melee equivalents. So either tons of S4, maybe 5, attacks or a bunch of high strength/low AP. So nothing too fancy.
Feel free to mention anything else as a bonus, such as maneuverability. And no D/stomps, unless your suggestion is somehow especially resilient against it. Nothing is safe of the D as far as I am concerned. One 6 and everything short of an actual titan is dead...

Like the GUO, I'd consider him very durable indeed, but his lack of speed and inability to hide in a unit detracts a lot from his resilience. More so than the lack of EW, since only very specific weapons will threaten him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

commander dante wrote:
Necron Overlord on Catacomb Command Barge (13/13/11 3HP) or (11/11/11 3HP) the Overlord is T5 3W
Nightmare Shroud (2+)
Solar Thermasite (Reroll Saves of 1)
Phylactery (IWND for him and Barge)
Phase Shifter (4++)
Reanimation Protocols (basically a 5+FNP)
Plus i can choose who you're hitting with your shots

Its Dirty

ALL saves of 1? Oo

Roknar wrote:

 Zan wrote:
You can do some crazy stuff with an Iron Hands Chapter Master. Jacked up Nurgle-lord, Troll-mode Orikan.

Like? I want examples, details ^^.
I've never heard of orikan, what's that? And I know Smashfether is a thing, but I don't know the details. Something 2+/3++/silly fnp roll with T5 and EW? He's not played around here.

Smashfether is basically taking an Iron Hands captain, using Angels of Death Fists of Medua detachment. Give him: Cataphractii Terminator armour, Iron halo, Gorgon's Chain. He'll have: ATSKNF, Eternal Warrior, FNP boosted by Fists of Medusa and possible warlord trait roll, Invulnerable save with reroll on 1's, IWND. Grab command squad with apothecary to complete the picture.

Orikan is a Necron special character. Basically "team him up with a Destroyer Lord bodyguard with the Nightmare Shroud, Phase Shifter and Phylactery (add in Resurrection Orb and the Solar Staff for added fun with re-rolls and Blind). You now have a unit that tanks shots on majority T6 with a re-rollable 2+ armour save thanks to Orikan, in addition to a 4+ invuln with the ability to re-roll 1s and reanimation protocols on a 4+ on top. Even if he takes a wound to the few things that can hurt him though all that (beware of Vendettas and Destroyer Weapons), he'll probably just shrug it off thanks to It Will Not Die."

Pure durability wise? With no Psychic Shenanigans? I would say that Ghaz is probably up their. When you put him in the ridiculously Over Priced Orkurion he gets a 2++ the entire game, then take a bunch of nobz and a Warboss in Mega Armor with DLS to tank regular wounds and Mad Dok Grotsnik to hand out some FNP and you have a 2+ rerollable a 2++ invul a 5+ FNP and a bunch of models to LOS onto for those rare occasions when your worried he might die. Of course to do this your going to be spending around 1,200 points and the unit will not be very mobile and won't do much and has almost zero shooting abilities....or psychic for that matter.

Potentially?

Wouldnt that be saint celestine?

potential to absolutely never die.

Ghaz technically isn't an HQ choice though, and if you go into the LoW characters, the Daemonlords become an option (and are heinously durable due to the Gargantuan Creature rule).

 Desubot wrote:
Potentially?

Wouldnt that be saint celestine?

potential to absolutely never die.

You can only use Miraculous Intervention once unfortunately, and T3 sucks. I've always wished they'd stretch the fluff a bit for the sake of crunch and give Sisters T4 on account of the power armour. I know they get the better save and all but I think it should be applied to a little extra toughness as well.

 Desubot wrote:
Potentially?

Wouldnt that be saint celestine?

potential to absolutely never die.

Didn't they change that to be only once per game now? Effectively simply doubling her wounds for the purposes of this thread?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Ghaz technically isn't an HQ choice though, and if you go into the LoW characters, the Daemonlords become an option (and are heinously durable due to the Gargantuan Creature rule).

^ This ^

That is correct.

 Zan wrote:

Roknar wrote:

 Zan wrote:
You can do some crazy stuff with an Iron Hands Chapter Master. Jacked up Nurgle-lord, Troll-mode Orikan.

Like? I want examples, details ^^.
I've never heard of orikan, what's that? And I know Smashfether is a thing, but I don't know the details. Something 2+/3++/silly fnp roll with T5 and EW? He's not played around here.

Smashfether is basically taking an Iron Hands captain, using Angels of Death Fists of Medua detachment. Give him: Cataphractii Terminator armour, Iron halo, Gorgon's Chain. He'll have: ATSKNF, Eternal Warrior, FNP boosted by Fists of Medusa and possible warlord trait roll, Invulnerable save with reroll on 1's, IWND. Grab command squad with apothecary to complete the picture.

Orikan is a Necron special character. Basically "team him up with a Destroyer Lord bodyguard with the Nightmare Shroud, Phase Shifter and Phylactery (add in Resurrection Orb and the Solar Staff for added fun with re-rolls and Blind). You now have a unit that tanks shots on majority T6 with a re-rollable 2+ armour save thanks to Orikan, in addition to a 4+ invuln with the ability to re-roll 1s and reanimation protocols on a 4+ on top. Even if he takes a wound to the few things that can hurt him though all that (beware of Vendettas and Destroyer Weapons), he'll probably just shrug it off thanks to It Will Not Die."

Does reanimation protocol stack with fnp? Given how you can choose to get the fnp trait if you want to for this. How many wounds would that be? And you say majority toughness, does that mean orikan him/her/itself could get instagibbed if it takes a high strength wound?
Also, when I said no formation bonus, I also meant no detachment bonus. Just to keep things somewhat neutral. How many wounds does smashfether end up with? Same for fnp (without the meduas detachment).

 Kriswall wrote:
25 point basic Inquisitor held back in reserves for as long as possible and then deployed in the most remote part of the board, out of line of sight.

As a martial arts instructor once told me... best way to win a fight is to not be there.

25 points to deny slay the warlord? Sounds alright.

Thunder wolf lord with that relic 2+ armour and eternal warrior?

Puts juggernaut lords to shame for the same points cost!

While probably not the most durable, a DP of Tzeentch with the Impossible Robe is actually hilariously durable.

He can get the "rerollable 2++" and a 4+ FnP with just a single greater Reward and Warlord Trait, along with the Impossible Robe.

Unfortunately like the GUO he ends up dying miserably to an ID weapon. Unlike the GUO though, he has almost no chance of being wounded due to the rerollable 2++ (that does NOT require a psychic test or the Grimoire to activate).

Sure, sure. You asked what Smashfether was in a general sense so I explained. Just using C:SM, he's T5 W4 2+ Sv with eternal warrior, FNP 6+, IWND 5+, Invul 3+.

Reanimation protocols doesn't stack with FNP, you choose one or the other. However, RP can be rolled against ID so it's pretty useful in that regard.

Orikan runs around with: Master Chronomancer: Model and all models in same unti get +1 to RP rolls, and re-roll armour saves of 1

Orikan himself is standard WS 4 BS 4 S 4 T 4 W 2 I 2 A 2 Ld 10 Sv.4+/4++ BUT you roll D6 each turn and if the result is lower than your current turn number he becomes Empowered Orikan: WS 5 BS 5 S 7 T 7 W 4 I 4 A 4 Ld 10 Sv.4+/4++

 Konrax wrote:
Thunder wolf lord with that relic 2+ armour and eternal warrior?

Puts juggernaut lords to shame for the same points cost!

How so? The juggerlord gets a 2+ too with crimson slaughter. And EW thanks to a mutation, though that's obviously only for mental excercise.

the old one piece plastic terminators from space hulk were pretty durable, one solid piece of abs plastic, super tough, have had one fall down a flight of stairs and it only chipped the paint.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
While probably not the most durable, a DP of Tzeentch with the Impossible Robe is actually hilariously durable.

He can get the "rerollable 2++" and a 4+ FnP with just a single greater Reward and Warlord Trait, along with the Impossible Robe.

Unfortunately like the GUO he ends up dying miserably to an ID weapon. Unlike the GUO though, he has almost no chance of being wounded due to the rerollable 2++ (that does NOT require a psychic test or the Grimoire to activate).

Wow, plus he gets wings. I didn't go with a csm DP since the wings are fine and all but one grounding test fail and they end up worse than lords lol. At least in terms of durability.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zan wrote:
Sure, sure. You asked what Smashfether was in a general sense so I explained. Just using C:SM, he's T5 W4 2+ Sv with eternal warrior, FNP 6+, IWND 5+, Invul 3+.

Reanimation protocols doesn't stack with FNP, you choose one or the other. However, RP can be rolled against ID so it's pretty useful in that regard.

Orikan runs around with: Master Chronomancer: Model and all models in same unti get +1 to RP rolls, and re-roll armour saves of 1

Orikan himself is standard WS 4 BS 4 S 4 T 4 W 2 I 2 A 2 Ld 10 Sv.4+/4++ BUT you roll D6 each turn and if the result is lower than your current turn number he becomes Empowered Orikan: WS 5 BS 5 S 7 T 7 W 4 I 4 A 4 Ld 10 Sv.4+/4++

Np^^. I'm kinda suprised though. That's pretty close to the nurgle lord actually. Kinda makes me wonder if that's how GW balances things . Like, see? Random is extra fun and he can end up just as strong and even more so if get's extra lucky...totally balanced.
And that empowered orikan rings a bell now. Only faced him in that weird Campaign arena minigame though. Kicked my ass lol. Doesn't he also regain any lost wounds when he transforms?

Hah, yeah he's a real fun guy to be around. What happens with his wounds vis-a-vis transformation is that if he's suffered a W before empowerment he becomes W 3 instead of W 4, so in a sense he does regain it.

Fateweaver and someone with the Grimoire to put on him has been pretty indestructible in my experience. 2++ re rollable and can potentially re roll grounding tests if you managed to even wound him. And he's an eternal warrior...