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Made in au
Sneaky Kommando






tneva82 wrote:
Fine whatever but if we go for "take only boyz" no point discussing.

But it's pointless to start pointing the FAQ change for me since the FAQ change has zero impact for my stormboyz. Never used the fly during since spring FAQ so the stormboyz are 100% identical before and after fall faq for me. I don't use the 3 pointing thing so whatever. And I never have had reach to reach anything beyond screens anyway so have been just charging into whatever I can charge.

If you look at it nothing what I take matters because even boyz gets blown apart so frankly even if I go for boyz only it will be same. Stormboyz cost 33% more but get to combat on turn 2 rather than turn 3 so enemy has 1-2 turns of shooting rather than 2-3 turns. That means cutting down firepower by 33-50%. Not that bad deal and maybe something reach combat so I can actually roll some other dice than just armour saves here and there. Either way orks will be blown off the board but rolling some attacks for a change might be fun.

Look, I don't mean to be rude or put you on show, but the way you describe using stormboyz is a critical misstep for orks. Tripointing, charging out of LOS, charging HQ over screens. These are gameplay tactics, that you are willingly/intentionally not using. They will definitely be the difference between success and failure in EVERY game you charge with a stormboy. That is not an exaggeration.

It may also be a significant reason some people think Orks are terrible and others think they are awesome. If you're playing stormboyz without tripointing, charging from inside a building, or jumping over screens EVER, you're not playing the same xenos army as me. You throw these mechanics away as if they are meaningless, but they win games. Tactics like this may seem "small" and "unfluffy" to you, but they are the edge we need to win. Unfortunately, they have been undone in the FAQ. This is why I consider it a significant downfall of the stormboy, and you are unperturbed by these changes. That says a lot, right?

Now this may be controversial, but I personally think that if you are not doing these basic tactics, you have no right to complain about Ork effectiveness, because you are not trying to win. So when you say "nothing I take matters" I imagine you say that because you are not trying to take every edge you can, and you falsely believe that means you will always lose. But perhaps another Ork player could take your army to significant victory by trying harder with their tactics.

I honestly don't mean to be rude, but perhaps just attack that contradictory frame of mind that you find yourself in. And if I am honest, I suspect a lot of people are also in your shoes, which is why I made a big deal out of this.

   
Made in fi
Fixture of Dakka





Tripointing is abusing illogical game rule for advantage that breaks all sense of suspension of disbelief. Not to mention requires enemy to put another unit nearby to charge so that I can consolidiate conveniently AND that opponent doesn't prevent tri stepping by positioning of own models which is quite doable.

Charging out of LOS and HQ over screen I haven't been able to do because opponent funnily enough knows that's possible so don't allow it. You assume opponents park their characters conveniently in place I can charge them with fly rule. They don't. Threat range of stormboyz is known variable so they simply keep characters far enough so I have option of either charge screen or park my stormboyz front of screen for next turn because I dont' have movement range to reach screen. So which one should I take? Charge screen, wipe it and see if I can survive or simply wait there in the open being shot including by that screen...

I don't play against bad players who let me charge whatever I want. They measure how far my stormboyz are to their character and then put characters so far that I need to roll 13" to charge them. Good luck doing that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/12 06:38:59


“Nothing has a definite nature, so people cannot be purely evil. Even so-called evil people will aspire to follow a moral path when they feel a sense of community.” – Kukai

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Made in au
Sneaky Kommando






I think you'll find that once you start tripointing, you'll be able to very easily threaten HQ. It changes the game, man.

edit: i played orks in tournament settings, alright not gakky players. This was not uncommon:

1: charge a screen that ends next to another screen.
2: delete the charged screen, tripoint the second screen.
3: kill the 2nd screen in combat on their turn
4: move and charge HQ + surround tanks etc.

You can often do this turn 1 with stormboyz if you deploy aggressively.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/12 06:42:34


   
Made in fi
Fixture of Dakka





a) that requires abusing gamey rules breaking suspension of disbelief
b) that assumes opponent parks multiple units nearby so that I can charge one without charging other AND doesn't then deploy units so that tripointing is impossible which is easy to do particularly vs stormboyz that arent' even that fast.

So abusing rules and expecting opponent to be bad player. Yeah thanks but no thanks.

and T1 charge with stormboyz? 12"+3d6"=23.5" threat range. WTF? Even if you roll 2 over average you shouldn't get anywhere nearby against competent player. Only fool deploys exactly 24.01" front of orks unless they are h2h army that will then tear up anything orks throw at. Gunlines starts 28" away from you MINIMUM. Good luck T1 charging that. And then even being able to tripoint. Are you playing against idiots or what?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/12 06:44:39


“Nothing has a definite nature, so people cannot be purely evil. Even so-called evil people will aspire to follow a moral path when they feel a sense of community.” – Kukai

~12200 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights
 
   
Made in au
Sneaky Kommando






Look I'm obviously hitting a wall here. What you call "abuse" I call "tactics". Agree to disagree.

   
Made in lt
Aspirant Tech-Adept






I think most people call it tactics. Tricks like these make the game way more interesting than just rolling dice and seeing who rolls better.
Through this trick I can destroy an opposing gunline with ONE melee unit that makes it in combat if they don't know how to deal with it. And there are ways to deal with it:
1. Interrupt to go base to base first so I can't move during pile in.
2. Use one big unit to screen me away 12'' from your army so I can't even declare a charge against them
3. Use FLY screens so you can retreat
4. Use a lot of smite
5. Use melee units

My last tournament I went up against a gunline and once I got a unit in combat - their game was DONE. I tripointed 3 turns in a row and they didn't understand what to do - they can't shoot my melee blob, they can't shoot my characters(blob is closer and characters are surrounded in it), everything else is hiding from line of sight.

There are plenty of tricks like these:
1. charging a shooty unit but putting only 1 model in combat so you surround them and kill them next turn
2. Using CCW that every model has so you punch with 0 AP and str User so you don't kill stuff(relevant to big stuff like Magnus. This way he can charge SM scouts but they still survive since they make their normal saves and then surround the SM scout unit with a blob unit)
3. Charging 1 unit but sending 3 models to tripoint another unit, that has strong overwatch(Which you ignore this way)

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2018/10/12 08:43:06


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Made in ie
Norn Queen






Dublin, Ireland

Can you guys illustrate this tri point thing with pics / diagrams? Me confused.
How can you tripoint say a 20 man unit of cultists strung out in a conga line? You'd need a billion models to close off their retreat lanes no?
How can you tri point a large tank like a LR?

Are you talking about tri pointing a single character model?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/12 08:44:21


Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be

By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.

"Feelin' goods, good enough". 
   
Made in lt
Aspirant Tech-Adept






Tripoint works agianst small models. Like 1 of 10 fire warriors.
It's just surrounding at least 1 enemy model so it can't move its base out of combat. The tripoint specifically is that you only need 3 models to do that against non giant base models. You form a triangle with your models around an enemy model.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/12 09:08:31


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Made in ie
Norn Queen






Dublin, Ireland

Ah right I get you.
So if you can tripoint a single model from one (big) unit, the whole unit cant fall back?

Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be

By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.

"Feelin' goods, good enough". 
   
Made in no
Regular Dakkanaut




 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Tripoint works agianst small models. Like 1 of 10 fire warriors.
It's just surrounding at least 1 enemy model so it can't move its base out of combat. The tripoint specifically is that you only need 3 models to do that against non giant base models. You form a triangle with your models around an enemy model.

Yeah, but you have to attack in CC right? You don't have to use the weapons on the datasheet to do it but against weaker eenmy unit that you want to merely tie up in CC it might still be enough to kill a few, meaning your opponent is going to remove the sorrounded models as casualties first. Although I guess this can be circumvented if you consolidate into the unit, thus making it an ineligible unit to attack..

I really wish that tanks could back out of CC and still fire that turn at a -1 modifier to hit. Or that they have a "main weapon" nominated on their datasheet and that weapon can still fire while in CC but not against the unit they're currently in CC with..

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/12 09:34:53


 
   
Made in de
Big Mek in Kustom Dragster with Soopa-Gun





 Ratius wrote:
Can you guys illustrate this tri point thing with pics / diagrams? Me confused.
How can you tripoint say a 20 man unit of cultists strung out in a conga line? You'd need a billion models to close off their retreat lanes no?
How can you tri point a large tank like a LR?

Are you talking about tri pointing a single character model?


I attached a drawing. The idea with cultists is to prevent a single model from falling back. The others cannot move more than 2" from it, so they are stuck in combat with the orks. The important part is to do this with a unit you are not attacking (not declared as target/after fighting), otherwise they will just remove the arrested model as casualty.

A box-formed tank needs four models to arrest, basic geometry. Any circular or elipse-formed base can be arrested using just three models, but without a lot of practice, you will often allow the model to escape if you are off by an 8th of an inch.
[Thumb - arrest.png]


Drager wrote:
I'd heard there would be a clatter, then perhaps a hiss, but that's not what it's like. We'd all been told that these things lurked in vents and crevices, that they could sneak up on a man no matter how alert, but that just wasn't what happened. We saw them coming, well, we heard them first, an ear-splitting boom as they accelerated across the plain. They must have been 2 miles away when we heard the crack, but we barely had time to lift our weapons before they were on us and then... past us. Running faster than I could follow. They didn't attack, didn't even try and it was then, as the whole platoon stared after them that a dread crept through me and I turned to see that which they had been running from.

-Infantryman Collins, 5th Umbra Rifles
 
   
Made in ie
Norn Queen






Dublin, Ireland

Thanks for the diagram, thats pretty cool

Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be

By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.

"Feelin' goods, good enough". 
   
Made in au
Sneaky Kommando






Ratius, everyone's been super helpful with explaining it, so I hope you understand. I'd like to add that your goal with tripointing is to kill the tripointed unit in their combat phase. This means that their shooting and charge phase have already ended, and you will have a free to move boyz unit that can charge when it is your turn again (provided you kill enough in the unit you tripointed).

This ends up being very complicated in practice to be ideal, otherwise you might end up keeping your boyz in combat for your next turn, which kinda sucks (but is still better than not tripointing). Practice it! and remember that most of the boyz do not need to run at the target you charged, in fact you might not even want to attack it at all.

For example, you charge unit A, you're 9" away and you get a 9" charge. If any one of your boyz are less than 14" away from any other small model/unit, you can tripoint it, because you have another 6" of movement thanks to pile in and consolidate (let's call that unit, unit B). So... You complete your charge by sending a few boys towards unit A and most of the boys towards unit B (stay an inch away, you have to), then pile in and consolidate your 6" around any small dude inside unit B.

Who cares if unit A survives, what is essential is that unit B dies in their combat phase. Unit B is the target, and it is often better if unit B is closer to you than unit A.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/12 09:52:19


   
Made in lt
Aspirant Tech-Adept






PiñaColada wrote:
 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Tripoint works agianst small models. Like 1 of 10 fire warriors.
It's just surrounding at least 1 enemy model so it can't move its base out of combat. The tripoint specifically is that you only need 3 models to do that against non giant base models. You form a triangle with your models around an enemy model.

Yeah, but you have to attack in CC right? You don't have to use the weapons on the datasheet to do it but against weaker eenmy unit that you want to merely tie up in CC it might still be enough to kill a few, meaning your opponent is going to remove the sorrounded models as casualties first. Although I guess this can be circumvented if you consolidate into the unit, thus making it an ineligible unit to attack..

I really wish that tanks could back out of CC and still fire that turn at a -1 modifier to hit. Or that they have a "main weapon" nominated on their datasheet and that weapon can still fire while in CC but not against the unit they're currently in CC with..


You can only attack the units you charged. So you see 2 units, charge the one with crap overwatch and good melee to kill it and send 3 models to the unit with amazing overwatch(that you didn't charge). During pile in you can move within 1'' of units you didn't charge too so you use those 6'' to surround the model.

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Made in ie
Norn Queen






Dublin, Ireland

But the second unit you didnt charge can still fight you without reprisal this turn right?

Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be

By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.

"Feelin' goods, good enough". 
   
Made in au
Sneaky Kommando






Yep, that is the price you pay for this tactic. But that price is often better than a full strength shooting phase.

   
Made in ie
Norn Queen






Dublin, Ireland

Gotcha.

Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be

By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.

"Feelin' goods, good enough". 
   
Made in au
Sneaky Kommando






 rvd1ofakind wrote:
You can only attack the units you charged. So you see 2 units, charge the one with crap overwatch and good melee to kill it and send 3 models to the unit with amazing overwatch(that you didn't charge). During pile in you can move within 1'' of units you didn't charge too so you use those 6'' to surround the model.
I personally send as much as I can to the unit I didn't charge in order to confidently kill them in 1 combat (their turn), ideally you can get away with half half though.

   
Made in lt
Aspirant Tech-Adept






It's usually like 4 attacks from units that hit on a 4, wound on a 5...
Also the tactic is amazing against flamers.
"Oh no, 3 tanks with 2x flamer overwatch. Oh look, a single surviving cultist within 12'' of them. Charge cultist, pile in into the tanks"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 hollow one wrote:
 rvd1ofakind wrote:
You can only attack the units you charged. So you see 2 units, charge the one with crap overwatch and good melee to kill it and send 3 models to the unit with amazing overwatch(that you didn't charge). During pile in you can move within 1'' of units you didn't charge too so you use those 6'' to surround the model.
I personally send as much as I can to the unit I didn't charge in order to confidently kill them in 1 combat (their turn), ideally you can get away with half half though.


Well, yeah. It warries game to game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/12 10:28:36


Mathammer(primarily Chaos Daemons, Adeptus Mechanicus, Necrons and Orks) https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mhwa-d77ztppXP9ZUQxur9HewqDTFZ6k
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5k pts AdMech
3k pts Necrons  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




In regards to suspending belief because of tripointing....that happens in combat all the time. If a unit has a squad or even a single man cut off by the enemy they usually will attempt to rescue them as abandoning one of your own is a lot harder then you seem to think it is. So in this way Tri-pointing represents a unit having a member cut off by the enemy and them sticking around to try and rescue them.

If at first you don't succeed then Sky Diving isn't for you. 
   
Made in no
Regular Dakkanaut




SemperMortis wrote:
In regards to suspending belief because of tripointing....that happens in combat all the time. If a unit has a squad or even a single man cut off by the enemy they usually will attempt to rescue them as abandoning one of your own is a lot harder then you seem to think it is. So in this way Tri-pointing represents a unit having a member cut off by the enemy and them sticking around to try and rescue them.

I mean, sure... In the 40k-verse some armies would certainly adhere to that "honour-system" (let's call it) but I'm guessing there's afair amount of the factions that would not bat an eye if their buddy is torn apart by nids as long as they can get away/attack something else. Some things you just have to accept for the sake of balance purposes I guess
   
Made in gb
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Maybe they should allow units to fall back if they accept that any that can't do so are slain? Would help remove the issue and allow more kills for partially surrounding units.

Fully Painted Armies: 1600pts Orks 1000pts Space Marines 1200pts Tau 2500pts Blood Angels 3500pts Imperial Guard/Renegades and 1700pts Daemons

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Made in de
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 DoomMouse wrote:
Maybe they should allow units to fall back if they accept that any that can't do so are slain? Would help remove the issue and allow more kills for partially surrounding units.


As long as fall back comes with an inherent downside, sure.

Most close combat units struggle to reach combat, and once they are there deal way less damage than a similar unit would have when shooting.

As long as fall back has now downsides compared to staying in combat, arrest is a good, though obvious unintended, countermeasure.

Drager wrote:
I'd heard there would be a clatter, then perhaps a hiss, but that's not what it's like. We'd all been told that these things lurked in vents and crevices, that they could sneak up on a man no matter how alert, but that just wasn't what happened. We saw them coming, well, we heard them first, an ear-splitting boom as they accelerated across the plain. They must have been 2 miles away when we heard the crack, but we barely had time to lift our weapons before they were on us and then... past us. Running faster than I could follow. They didn't attack, didn't even try and it was then, as the whole platoon stared after them that a dread crept through me and I turned to see that which they had been running from.

-Infantryman Collins, 5th Umbra Rifles
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




UK

SemperMortis wrote:
In regards to suspending belief because of tripointing....that happens in combat all the time. If a unit has a squad or even a single man cut off by the enemy they usually will attempt to rescue them as abandoning one of your own is a lot harder then you seem to think it is. So in this way Tri-pointing represents a unit having a member cut off by the enemy and them sticking around to try and rescue them.



This is, of course, absolute garbage.

I mean I have nothing against tri-pointing in itself, it's allowed by the rules so it's not cheating or anything, but trying to say that it's supported in any way by fluff or realism is the absolute height of stupidity.

You're saying that a squad will hang around to rescue a pinned team-mate? Yes, sure, that part is fine.

But that squad, when seeing a unit of the enemy charging at them, is ALSO going to fire their overwatch at them in an attempt to stop them from pinning their teammate in the first place.

They are NOT going to go "oh, no, hold your fire, they're actually charging that other squad over there, they're just veering in our direction accidentally! Better give those bloodthirsty orks / marauding tyranid horrors the benefit of the doubt and not shoot at them, I'm sure everything will be fine argh argh splat".

If you choose to pile in to a second unit, that unit should get to overwatch. End of story.

But the rules don't say this, and so tripointing is a perfectly valid tactic. That's fine. But don't try and justify it, it has no justification, it's cheese pure and simple.

The
Webway
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Made in au
Sneaky Kommando






Niiru wrote:
I mean I have nothing against tri-pointing in itself

Niiru wrote:
it's cheese pure and simple.

   
Made in gb
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine






 hollow one wrote:
Niiru wrote:
I mean I have nothing against tri-pointing in itself

Niiru wrote:
it's cheese pure and simple.




One man's cheese is another's tactics, I guess.

This is just an extension to the idea of daisy chaining units in a way to try and ensure that the enemy isn't killed in one round of combat. I'm sure any player of a melee centric army has done this. I've had players spit feathers that it's not fluffy but you can explain almost anything away in a fluffy sense - in this case the Orks were too busy fighting each other to properly charge in. Admittedly I found it a lot harder to explain how the Painboy was able to heal the Boys from across the board
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




UK

 hollow one wrote:
Niiru wrote:
I mean I have nothing against tri-pointing in itself

Niiru wrote:
it's cheese pure and simple.



Not sure why the quotes, it seems like you're implying I'm contradicting myself somehow, except that I didn't at all.

If someone (lets call him person A) used tri-pointing against me, I wouldn't complain. It's allowed by the rules, it's totally fair play. Good for them.

If, however, someone (lets call him Person B) tried to justify it by saying "see, this is how armies in the real world would work as well", I would likely laugh in their face at their stupidity.

The first person is a canny, tactical player, using every advantage they can get. They may (or may not) be one of those WAAC type of players, but using tri-pointing by itself isn't proof of that. If they also used rules lawyering and tried to half-inch their models around the board then that's a different matter.

The second person is a moron of the highest order. They may also be a canny, tactical player. But unfortunately, still a moron.

The
Webway
- An Eldar Tactica, as well as a work-in-progress.  
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine





 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 hollow one wrote:
Niiru wrote:
I mean I have nothing against tri-pointing in itself

Niiru wrote:
it's cheese pure and simple.




One man's cheese is another's tactics, I guess.

This is just an extension to the idea of daisy chaining units in a way to try and ensure that the enemy isn't killed in one round of combat. I'm sure any player of a melee centric army has done this. I've had players spit feathers that it's not fluffy but you can explain almost anything away in a fluffy sense - in this case the Orks were too busy fighting each other to properly charge in. Admittedly I found it a lot harder to explain how the Painboy was able to heal the Boys from across the board
It definitely feels gamey, for sure. Of course, Hit and Run followed by annihilation is pretty gamey, too.
   
Made in de
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I've been playing since the beginning of 5th and I never understood how people could immerse themselves into a game of WH40k.

It's so abstract, you might as well try to immerse yourself into a game of MtG.

Take that from someone how just returned home from his P&P game session.

Drager wrote:
I'd heard there would be a clatter, then perhaps a hiss, but that's not what it's like. We'd all been told that these things lurked in vents and crevices, that they could sneak up on a man no matter how alert, but that just wasn't what happened. We saw them coming, well, we heard them first, an ear-splitting boom as they accelerated across the plain. They must have been 2 miles away when we heard the crack, but we barely had time to lift our weapons before they were on us and then... past us. Running faster than I could follow. They didn't attack, didn't even try and it was then, as the whole platoon stared after them that a dread crept through me and I turned to see that which they had been running from.

-Infantryman Collins, 5th Umbra Rifles
 
   
Made in au
Sneaky Kommando






Niiru wrote:
Not sure why the quotes, it seems like you're implying I'm contradicting myself somehow, except that I didn't at all.

If someone (lets call him person A) used tri-pointing against me, I wouldn't complain. It's allowed by the rules, it's totally fair play. Good for them.

If, however, someone (lets call him Person B) tried to justify it by saying "see, this is how armies in the real world would work as well", I would likely laugh in their face at their stupidity.

The first person is a canny, tactical player, using every advantage they can get. They may (or may not) be one of those WAAC type of players, but using tri-pointing by itself isn't proof of that. If they also used rules lawyering and tried to half-inch their models around the board then that's a different matter.

The second person is a moron of the highest order. They may also be a canny, tactical player. But unfortunately, still a moron.
It's all good Niiru I was being tongue in cheek, just pointing out you have no issue with tripointing but also call it cheese, which sounds like you have an issue with it.

But, to your new point, of trying to defend and explain it in a fluffy manner, I agree, is not really necessary. If I had it my way, all that conversation would be relegated to the Lore part of these forums, and people here... in the tactics thread... could be free to discuss tactics without having to defend them to players who refuse to use them.

   
 
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