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I was recently doing some PHYSICS! work when a thought struck me: how strong does a planet's gravity field have to get before a titan is crushed under it's own weight?

I thought; "damn that's mighty interesting" and I was about to attempt some serious number crunching when I realised I don't know the weight of an imperetor class titan nore the force it's body can withstand.

So I come to you people in my time of need! Does anyone perhaps know the mass of such a titan? The materials it is mostly made from? The mass of said material? The force it can withstand?

Please, help a physicist out!

If you're really a physicist, you should have just estimated everything based on your best guesses.

Probably more realistic than whatever GW writers would put in the fluff.

You want to apply actual science to GW? Yeah, good luck with that...

The largest Titans are supported by anti-gravitic technology that offsets some of the mass.

jareddm wrote:
The largest Titans are supported by anti-gravitic technology that offsets some of the mass.

Let's suppose they do not, jist for the fun

Does anyone have the height of a titan? And perhaps the material it is made from? I can estimate from there.

It is made from plasteel, ceramite and adamantium.

Go ahead and estimate the mass of those.

I think the best you can do is go with the idea that the Emperor Titan is the largest that a Titan can be built (else they'd go bigger). Call it compatible with 1.3 g, and no more than that (since humans wouldn't likely be on higher than 1.3 g either).

The other titans are notably smaller than the Emperor Titan, and so would be able to go on higher g planets with a loss in functionality, but not suffer a total collapse for the first few g.

Using the cube/square thesis, and that the Emperor Titan is the biggest you can go, you can estimate the g forces that can be handled by smaller titans. Roughly akin to figuring out how many g-forces a horse can handle knowing it's made of the same materials as an elephant!

The question can't be answered. You would need very precise information on the internal structure of a titan to even begin to analyze the problem. For example, consider the difference in bending strength between a flat bar of metal and an I-beam. Geometry matters, especially with things like the joints (which would likely be the first point of failure), and we don't have the necessary information. Any "answer" you give would have way more to do with the assumptions you make than with the "true" strength of the titan.

The bird hath spoken. Let it be written. Let it be done.

Amen.

Physics and Causality were kicked to the curb the moment slaanesh came into being.

 El_Machinae wrote:
I think the best you can do is go with the idea that the Emperor Titan is the largest that a Titan can be built (else they'd go bigger). Call it compatible with 1.3 g, and no more than that (since humans wouldn't likely be on higher than 1.3 g either).

The other titans are notably smaller than the Emperor Titan, and so would be able to go on higher g planets with a loss in functionality, but not suffer a total collapse for the first few g.

Using the cube/square thesis, and that the Emperor Titan is the biggest you can go, you can estimate the g forces that can be handled by smaller titans. Roughly akin to figuring out how many g-forces a horse can handle knowing it's made of the same materials as an elephant!

I like this idea a lot. It make some major assumptions but also makes the puzzle solvable. Do we know have a list on what planet Emperor Titans have fought ?

 Peregrine wrote:
The question can't be answered. You would need very precise information on the internal structure of a titan to even begin to analyze the problem. For example, consider the difference in bending strength between a flat bar of metal and an I-beam. Geometry matters, especially with things like the joints (which would likely be the first point of failure), and we don't have the necessary information. Any "answer" you give would have way more to do with the assumptions you make than with the "true" strength of the titan.

I can atleast find the force that it would require to withstand, besides this is just for fun

First of all: since when is an imperetor class titan only 50m tall!? They're always made to look so much bigger...

Anyway! Using approximation magic, I can deduce the titan is about 17420m3. I shall now assume that plasteel is a composet of HDPE and steel (if you have a better idea of what it is please share), what is the ratio of steel to plastic then? Let's assume 50:50; therefore the density of the titan is about 4500kg/m3 (ooo more assumptions!). So the mass of our titan is 78,000,000kg, therefore it's weight on earth (or Terra to all you Xenos) would be about 770,000,000N.

Now I can see why they would want artificial gravity fields.

What was the point of this exercise? PHYSICS!

 mrhappyface wrote:

jareddm wrote:
The largest Titans are supported by anti-gravitic technology that offsets some of the mass.

Let's suppose they do not, jist for the fun

Does anyone have the height of a titan? And perhaps the material it is made from? I can estimate from there.

They range from the height of several stories to mountainous. They are made of space-age, fictional metals, like adamantine alloyed with handwavium.

 mrhappyface wrote:

First of all: since when is an imperetor class titan only 50m tall!? They're always made to look so much bigger...

40K lore being the prolonged thing it is, no piece of literature in it has clearly stated the height of any Titan outside of the ones that are actually models; we've had this problem with Warlords up till recently - some artwork and games like Space Marine depicted them as being 2 or 300 metres tall, while other art has said they are much smaller than that.

I guess I'll repeat what everyone else has said - these things are made of materials that don't exist on Earth and probably don't exist in the galaxy either; we can't really work out their weight unless GW wrote something clearly stating their weight.

I wouldn't hold your breath on that.

Still, I like your idea of finding this out, so if you really wanted to estimate this, perhaps class Plasteel as having a similar weight to steel per KG/Pound and Ceramite being similar to a ceramic plating material per KG/Pound.

I don't reckon you'll be able to do anything but wildly guess this one, but you seem pretty determined and I wouldn't want to stamp out your figurative campfire

Hope this helped in some way.

G.A

The Titan would probably sink into the ground before it collapsed in on itself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A link to an older discussion of titans and their viability in reality.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/523743.page

In terms of materials wouldn't it be better to assume that the technology to make something like this is way beyond what we have today, so it's best to create estimates using the strongest materials we currently know of, rather than can easily manufacture? (I am not a physicist, just think that any mention of steel in construction of a titan seems at odds).

So we'd see the use of carbon nanotubes or even boron nanotubes wouldn't we? How would that change the weight and feasibility of such a structure?

Actually, you'd be better off working the other way round. It's no good trying co calculate if a Titan could support its own weight - we already know it can. So, work backwards and try to estimate the necessary strength of the materials.

Of course, as Peregrine says, you don't really have enough information to be able to do that either, in any meaningful way.

I'm no physicist, only an person with a moderate interest in physics, so take my opinion with a healthy pinch of salt. Anyway, I'd hazard the guess that they could operate on a high G planet if they were built with that in mind - especially if they were built on a high gravity world themselves. A titan built on a 1G planet would likely crumple under 10G stresses unless it's construction was specifically tailored and reinforced to provide for an operating pressure of 10G. However, a Titan built on a 10G planet would be perfectly adapted to operate on another 10G planet and would likely perform better on a lower G planet.

For example, a human born on Earth naturally develops just enough muscle mass to move their limbs and function in the operating environment of Earth. That same human on the moon finds that due to lower G, their muscle mass can propel their jumps further as their muscle mass does not have to compensate for the effect of gravity on their mass (Weight in other words). However that same human on a higher G planet would find that they have to develop a greater amount of muscle in order to propel them the same distance as on Earth due to the higher G forces affecting their mass (In other words because they weigh more). If you then took this human back to Earth, their increased muscle mass would mean that they could likely outperform other humans who have developed according to Earths 1G. It's the same for Titans. Take a Titan to the moon and it could move faster due to it's reactors having a lower burden due to lower weight. However move it to a 10G planet and it'll need some serious reinforcing before it's materials can withstand and overcome the forces exerted on it by the increased G.

Athletes do this sort of thing all the time. Some Rowing teams train their rowers in countries with high altitudes as the rowers bodies can adapt to oxygen starvation. Then, when they compete in a country at a lower altitude, their bodies, now used to oxygen deprevation, perform much better in the oxygen rich environment. So, building a Titan in a high G environment means not only will it be able to perform there, but it can, theoretically, perform better in a 1G environment. Similarly, that's why you would build a spaceship in space as you wouldn't need to concern yourself with limitations of weight only mass.

Least-ways, that's the way I see it - feel free to heckle, applaud or scowl in disgust.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Actually, you'd be better off working the other way round. It's no good trying co calculate if a Titan could support its own weight - we already know it can. So, work backwards and try to estimate the necessary strength of the materials.

Of course, as Peregrine says, you don't really have enough information to be able to do that either, in any meaningful way.

That's a good point and sorry for not clarifying that's along the lines of what I meant - when people talk about the square-cube law, they use the properties of steel, rather than something cutting edge. It'd just be interesting to see how much more feasible it would be using the most advanced materials we have today, as opposed to most of the debate ranging from "steel can only cope with x" and then "yeah but it's made out of adamantium and plasteel."

As you said, it's not really possible, but mentioning steel anywhere within this context seems erroneous at best.

Da Mediokre Painta wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Actually, you'd be better off working the other way round. It's no good trying co calculate if a Titan could support its own weight - we already know it can. So, work backwards and try to estimate the necessary strength of the materials.

Of course, as Peregrine says, you don't really have enough information to be able to do that either, in any meaningful way.

That's a good point and sorry for not clarifying that's along the lines of what I meant - when people talk about the square-cube law, they use the properties of steel, rather than something cutting edge. It'd just be interesting to see how much more feasible it would be using the most advanced materials we have today, as opposed to most of the debate ranging from "steel can only cope with x" and then "yeah but it's made out of adamantium and plasteel."

As you said, it's not really possible, but mentioning steel anywhere within this context seems erroneous at best.

Burj Khalifa. 800m high. Built out of commonly available material's. Nothing wrong with steel

 Flinty wrote:


Burj Khalifa. 800m high. Built out of commonly available material's. Nothing wrong with steel

Apart from the fact that it swings about at the highest view deck in high winds. Deliberate design feature, but still made me queasy

G.A

 Flinty wrote:

Da Mediokre Painta wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Actually, you'd be better off working the other way round. It's no good trying co calculate if a Titan could support its own weight - we already know it can. So, work backwards and try to estimate the necessary strength of the materials.

Of course, as Peregrine says, you don't really have enough information to be able to do that either, in any meaningful way.

That's a good point and sorry for not clarifying that's along the lines of what I meant - when people talk about the square-cube law, they use the properties of steel, rather than something cutting edge. It'd just be interesting to see how much more feasible it would be using the most advanced materials we have today, as opposed to most of the debate ranging from "steel can only cope with x" and then "yeah but it's made out of adamantium and plasteel."

As you said, it's not really possible, but mentioning steel anywhere within this context seems erroneous at best.

Burj Khalifa. 800m high. Built out of commonly available material's. Nothing wrong with steel

I see your point wouldn't a walking, firing Titan have to be endure a lot more and different stresses on its hull? Even just the shock of a step would require extremely strong materials.

 General Annoyance wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

First of all: since when is an imperetor class titan only 50m tall!? They're always made to look so much bigger...

40K lore being the prolonged thing it is, no piece of literature in it has clearly stated the height of any Titan outside of the ones that are actually models; we've had this problem with Warlords up till recently - some artwork and games like Space Marine depicted them as being 2 or 300 metres tall, while other art has said they are much smaller than that.

I guess I'll repeat what everyone else has said - these things are made of materials that don't exist on Earth and probably don't exist in the galaxy either; we can't really work out their weight unless GW wrote something clearly stating their weight.

I wouldn't hold your breath on that.

Still, I like your idea of finding this out, so if you really wanted to estimate this, perhaps class Plasteel as having a similar weight to steel per KG/Pound and Ceramite being similar to a ceramic plating material per KG/Pound.

I don't reckon you'll be able to do anything but wildly guess this one, but you seem pretty determined and I wouldn't want to stamp out your figurative campfire

Hope this helped in some way.

G.A

the problem with your assumption is Plasteel is useally presented across sci-fi as being a super material that is "light as plastic, tough as steel" so I think we'd be better off assuming plasteel was lighter then steel

BrianDavion wrote:

 General Annoyance wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

First of all: since when is an imperetor class titan only 50m tall!? They're always made to look so much bigger...

40K lore being the prolonged thing it is, no piece of literature in it has clearly stated the height of any Titan outside of the ones that are actually models; we've had this problem with Warlords up till recently - some artwork and games like Space Marine depicted them as being 2 or 300 metres tall, while other art has said they are much smaller than that.

I guess I'll repeat what everyone else has said - these things are made of materials that don't exist on Earth and probably don't exist in the galaxy either; we can't really work out their weight unless GW wrote something clearly stating their weight.

I wouldn't hold your breath on that.

Still, I like your idea of finding this out, so if you really wanted to estimate this, perhaps class Plasteel as having a similar weight to steel per KG/Pound and Ceramite being similar to a ceramic plating material per KG/Pound.

I don't reckon you'll be able to do anything but wildly guess this one, but you seem pretty determined and I wouldn't want to stamp out your figurative campfire

Hope this helped in some way.

G.A

the problem with your assumption is Plasteel is useally presented across sci-fi as being a super material that is "light as plastic, tough as steel" so I think we'd be better off assuming plasteel was lighter then steel

Don't carbon nanotubes already outperform plasteel?

Da Mediokre Painta wrote:


I see your point wouldn't a walking, firing Titan have to be endure a lot more and different stresses on its hull? Even just the shock of a step would require extremely strong materials.

It might do, but that's what shock absorbers are for. Also steel is extremely strong already which is why we build really big things out of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also some plastics are already tougher than steel, just not necessarily as strong. Also also carbon nanotubes are all very well but they're a bugger to make into antrying larger than a nanotubes. Resins tend to go squishy in any conditions warmer than a hot day (/artistic licence)

 Flinty wrote:

Da Mediokre Painta wrote:


I see your point wouldn't a walking, firing Titan have to be endure a lot more and different stresses on its hull? Even just the shock of a step would require extremely strong materials.

It might do, but that's what shock absorbers are for. Also steel is extremely strong already which is why we build really big things out of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also some plastics are already tougher than steel, just not necessarily as strong. Also also carbon nanotubes are all very well but they're a bugger to make into antrying larger than a nanotubes. Resins tend to go squishy in any conditions warmer than a hot day (/artistic licence)

I know the yields of carbon nanotubes are non-existent at the moment but there wouldn't be musings to use it as the building blocks of a space elevator if it wasn't feasible to eventually make large quantities of the stuff. Just saying that steel and plastic are good and all but they're not cutting edge.

It's unlikely that by physics as we know it they would survive on NORMAL gravity planets. They're made of super space metal and handwavium though, so it's best not to think too deeply on it.

It depends on how many skulls it has on it, cause that would be the only part of the titan we'd be able to at least have a rough idea about its mass.

Don't Titans have anti grav tech, removing a lot of their weight?