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Hey all. I'm looking to expand my small Chaos Space Marines/Chaos Daemons force into higher points games. Currently, most of what I have are main line troops (Cultists, CSM, etc.) with little in the way of "anti-tank" besides Helbrutes or Termicide squads. I'm looking to add some long ranged fire support to my games, and I would like some input on what is most efficient for the points cost since the armies as a whole (mostly CSM) are horrendously overpriced in the current shooty-oriented meta.

Keep in mind I mostly play casually in things like narrative campaigns, so I don't need bleeding edge competitive choices (mostly, I'm looking to add efficient fire support to demons/marines without restricting what I take in the list). I've already ruled out the Defiler, since at almost 200 points it's simply not worth it to pay that much for a battle cannon. I am considering the Maulerfiend/Forgefiend, Chaos Predator (probably Autocannon/Lascannon sponsons) and Chaos Daemons Soul Grinder. Not considering Forgeworld units right now.

The Predator is the cheapest of the three, and the Soul Grinder/Forgefiend seem comparable in cost and role if not durability. In general, what works best as a good long ranged, backfield to midfield dakka unit? Thanks in advance.

A predator with anti tank gear is reliable, relativly cheap and as badass as hell. Other Wise, you may pick an obliterator squad. Those guys are relativly cheap to, have acess to almost every weapon available, and can even deep strike if needed. However, you'll have to mark them with Nurgle and to look after them closely for they're more likelmy to die than other support troops. Finally, a vindicator is no more long range support, but a powerful linebreaker that can provide your forces with a good punch and support nevertheless. Whichever one you may choose, be sure to forget havocs. They're definitly too fragile and expensive for a function that the other options can easily undertake.

Obliterators should be on your radar, they're one of the few decent options in the csm dex. MoN against everything that's not plasma, grav or str10 ap2, MoT against those 3 things. VotLW suggested but not mandatory.

Otherwise maulerfiends add another target to force target saturation in a mech list.

Forgefiends can do ok on occasion if you've got div available for prescience, but BS3 makes them unreliable and that's generally not ok for 175 points.

Preds are preds, and are a bit Meh in general.

Havoks with autocannons do a pretty reasonable job at opening up light tanks and light fliers at a pinch.

Defilers are ~ 70 Points over costed as noted, and the less said about them the better. Land raiders are poor, but can be mandatory for some HQs to work (Kharn is the classic example).

Havocs with autocannon are cheap and do their job, though not really as anti-tank.
Oblits with a sorcerer with balestar of mannon(for prescience) worked really good for me, they can practically fight everything and are quite durable.
If you use forgeworld, Rapier weapon carriers are very cost efficient choices and there are quite a few stand-ins out there, so you don't have to buy the expensive fw ones.
Vindicator is okay if he's not alone and you have enough other units to distract from him.
Soul grinders of Nurgle (or plague hulks) are very survivable and will annoy your enemy.

What you take of all of these depends on your taste. If your army is very close combat oriented you probably don't want to drop that many blasts close to your buddies. Actually, you can never go wrong with oblits.

Screw the shooty meta! Go with Maulerfiends! Slap two or three on the table and punch those tanks right in the ass! Alternatively, min-size squads of bikers with meltas and melta bombs can do the trick quite effectively.

You can try the Oblits of Nurgle route, or Havocs, but both can be a bit squishy against some opponents.

I, personally, am a huge fan of the Mayhem Pack formation from the Helbrute dataslate. Give your 3 Helbrutes Reaper autocannons, and if you have spare points, a Heavy Flamer on their powerfist. They will all deepstrike simultaneously, which is great for freaking out your opponent, and roll on the Crazed table every turn. With the RA/HF combo, rolling 1-2 becomes brutal to enemy infantry/tank rear armor, a 3-4 is a decent bonus for charging tanks, and 5-6 becomes awesome, since you've deep-struck too close to have to run and now get fleet AND rage for tank-charging fun.

I'm going to join most everyone else here and say that Forgefiends and Predators are not ideal choices. I've tried them both and found they just don't deliver enough punishment for points. Vindicators have to get too close to be effective, IMHO, and will get shot to bits by any competent opponent before they get a second, or sometimes even first, shot off.

I am looking to get some soul grinders myself, I think those may be the best option available to the forces of Chaos. I haven't gotten to try them yet, but I wish I had been interested in bringing Daemon allies sooner because they look great on paper.

Rapier Autocannons and Autocannon Havocs are all I use anymore outside of Maulerfiends on occasion. Obliterators are too squishy nowadays.

The rapier cannons might be forgeworld but you'll have to build them from scratch yourself anyway so maybe those are worse considering. Otherweise...yea. havocs and maulerfiends.

Forgefiends can be useful if you use the Daemon Hunting Pack formation. Hades autocannon at BS 5 is a good deal.

I'm a daemon player, so I'm not familiar with the CSM stuff (it just makes me too sad for chaos).

Soul grinders are strong and can be made to work with whatever god your fluff wants.

I've always had fun with a pair of deepstriking obliterators. Rar.

I am probably spewing some reduncancy here, so please bear with me. As such, here are my recommended options, in order of preference:

1) Obliterators: With oblits, 'long range' means lascannons every other turn. If you can get within 36" (not unreasonable), then you can fire off plasma cannons during the other turns. Oblits are also durable enough to start on the board, especially in cover (giving them a puncher's chance against any Grav drops). They also have the dual duty of close-range support, in the event that you have a match where you require their melta via deepstrike - in this case, you can drop your termicide units, as the Oblits perform this task better, via TL melta and increased durability.

Three squads of two oblits, with the VotLW tax and Mark of Nurgle, should give you all of the heavy support you will need.

2) Predator: I recommend the tri-las predator over the AC/LC-sponsons version. That extra TL LC can pay dividends, and is your best ROI for consistent, long range firepower, where you can park it in your startzone and blast away.

3) Soul Grinders: Phlegm-spitting Soul grinders also have a fair amount of firepower, albeit at reduced range. If you have the points for 3 grinders, you could run the Forgehost formation, where the rerolls actually make Warp Gaze a viable option (not even close to long range, but Deep Striking two grinders with Warp Gaze could do some damage, especially if you can get the rerolls from your first Grinder).

Even though i don't play a shooty army, i second the statements about Oblit's & a Balestar Sorcerer. Prescience on anything shooting is a godsend, especially on low-shot count units like
Oblit's who otherwise suffer dearly if they don't hit; they're still expensive (at least in my opinion).

Forgefiends, outside of the Black Legion Formation are.. meh. BS3 on either Autocannons and Ectoplasm cannons is already hard to do damage to any enemy gunline/vehicle, but only having
AV12 front is even worse for 175 points without the mouthpiece.

I'd stick with my 3 Fav's here when i use shooty-Heavy support; Havocs, for cheap & expendable Autocannon's for anything AV 12 and below or just spray & pray; Tri-las Predators for opening boxes.
He's humble but packs some serious firepower at AV 13 in the front. And lastly, my beloved Defiler - yes, he's overprized and has a certain distraction-carnifex vibe to his name, but i'll still run him with dual
havoc-launcher to rain some twinlinked Slaaneshi love at my enemy.

And, unless you're running an aggressive Assault army, i wouldn't bother to even think at Vindicators. But if you do, take 2 and give them demonic possession (they're already BF3), add Dozer blades & Siege
Shield and watch your enemy going full ape-sh** to bring them down as soon as possible.

Oh, and before i forget - The Noisemarines Blastmaster is S 8 AP 3 explo 3", pinning AND ignore cover at 48" range. A min. sized Noisemarine unit with 1 Blastmaster costs 125 points, 2 Blastmaster at 10man
is 240 points. Expensive? Hell yeah, but still - it's a really nasty Artillery unit that insta-gibs MEQ's, can be buffed by Sorcerers and is sometimes overlooked because of it's elite-slot.

 EverlastingNewb wrote:

I'd stick with my 3 Fav's here when i use shooty-Heavy support; Havocs, for cheap & expendable Autocannon's for anything AV 12 and below or just spray & pray; Tri-las Predators for opening boxes.
He's humble but packs some serious firepower at AV 13 in the front. And lastly, my beloved Defiler - yes, he's overprized and has a certain distraction-carnifex vibe to his name, but i'll still run him with dual
havoc-launcher to rain some twinlinked Slaaneshi love at my enemy.

And, unless you're running an aggressive Assault army, i wouldn't bother to even think at Vindicators. But if you do, take 2 and give them demonic possession (they're already BF3), add Dozer blades & Siege
Shield and watch your enemy going full ape-sh** to bring them down as soon as possible.

How do you fire those Havoc launchers when the defiler can only fire snapshots when he uses his battle cannon?
Vindis have BS4 and using Dozer blades AND siege shield is nonsense, since you automatically pass terrain tests with the shield, why would you want to reroll them afterwards?

Against Necrons the Vindi works wonders(and practically is the only weapon to really do any damage against them). Against other stuff with long range anti tank I'd leave him at home.

Obliterators should be one of your first picks regardless of mission, choosing their weapons each turn is fantastic, pretty durable and a power fist means they can deal with most threats.
Bike squads with meltas. Can't sit these guys in the back and blast away but they're very durable with mark of Nurgle
I'd also second Autocannon havocs, only as durable as any other power armoured model but not overly expensive either.

I have a squad of Autocannon Havocks. They are reasonably cheap and can open Rhinos and glance skimmers decently, but they don't do a whole lot. They do attract more fire than I think they deserve, though.

3 soul grinders in a forgehost is very solid.

My previous CSM army would use 2 vindicators and a single obliterator.

Often I would bubble wrap the vindicators with infantry as they could be quite easy to pop in combat/by melta.

I never bothered giving them extra weapons; if they got weapons destroyed they would spend the game as tank shocking roadblocks.

Between tank shocking vindicators, rhinos, 25% casualties from psychic/shooting phases you could eventually force a morale check and push enemies quite far across/off the board with the subsequent autofails.

I like units that can interact with both armour and infantry when the need requires, as opposed to focused units that target armour but aren't any good against infantry, and vice versa. Obliterators can target anything, vindicators can target anything, but I've often wondered if a predator can function the same way. Tri-las, auto-las and dakka types are all decent but I think there could be a reasonable fourth option; an auto-las pred with havoc launcher and combi-bolter. If you target armour all game you've wasted the points for the havoc launcher and CB (unless you get a lucky glance with the HL) but should you decide to shoot infantry or an MC you've got a dakka pred but with lascannons instead of heavy bolters

It'll probably be another strange unit I'd love to try out but never will

Anyway, I think most CSM builds are better off killing armour from up close. More often than not shooting at range is going to result in playing the opponent's game when CSM are better suited to short and mid range fighting

Oblits are good but their price-to-shot ratio is probably the worst out of the choices you got (Havocs, Preds and Fiends). Not to mention their power has been so ingrained into the players' minds that anyone with a cursory knowledge of CSM will do everything to shoot them off the table. So if you take them, take a lot and be prepared to lose a few before they even get to shoot. They are the most versatile choice though; there is literally no unit they can't theoretically handle.

Havocs are good in that, per point, they have the best shot output of any of the other choices. The drawback comes in that they're no more durable than regular CSM (so one good AP3 round of shooting is all that will take to wipe them off the board) and you need to select their weapons and pay for them. If those weapons you need happen to be lascannons, then be prepared to pay a premium. If you do run them, max out the squad to get some ablative wounds in there. I prefer Missile launchers in one squad and Autocannons in another, as I usually find anything requiring lascannon shots can either be ignored (land Raider and it's equivallents) or would require too much of a points investment to be worth it (most 2+ armor units).

Preds are the cheapest option available; a decent laspred can be kitted out for far less than anything else while having decent survivability. They have the same problem as Havocs in that once the battle starts, you're locked into your choice. Their main problem is that while a single pred is more durable than a single oblit, they are nowhere near as durable as a unit of oblits (which cost roughly the same as one) and you can't reliably spam them since we don't get the loyalist rule of vehicle squadrons. However, Preds are cheap and people generally overlook them (the low armor and profile of them often have people assume they're easily popped like rhinos and they don't have exotic rules or weapons, so they're fairly low on most people's priority lists), so they can be effective so long as you present other high-value targets.

Speaking of their vulnerability to AP3, has anyone tried marking Havocs Tzeentch and deploying them on a skyshield landing pad for a 3++?

For what it's worth, hellbrutes just got a nice buff. Jumping to 4 base attacks is pretty decent.

They're elites. And yep, i'm looking forward to running a murderpack. It was passable even before the upgrade. Now it's gona be super fun. Needs invis tho.

How do you fire those Havoc launchers when the defiler can only fire snapshots when he uses his battle cannon?
Vindis have BS4 and using Dozer blades AND siege shield is nonsense, since you automatically pass terrain tests with the shield, why would you want to reroll them afterwards?

Against Necrons the Vindi works wonders(and practically is the only weapon to really do any damage against them). Against other stuff with long range anti tank I'd leave him at home.

Should've been an "or" instead of "&", i apologize.
I sometimes don't use the Defiler's cannon, but mostly i add those extra weapons for 'weapon destroyed' allocation.
BS3 or 4 doesn't really change much if you drop a pie plate on an enemy, ignoring crew shaken & stunned does change a lot though.

I'm really struggling whether to get Tri-Las Predators or Sicarans.... Sicaran are fast tank and better side and rear armour but still only 3 hull points. I watched a game lately where on the first turn all the Sicarans died tog Multi-Meltas without getting to fire a shot back.

 EverlastingNewb wrote:

How do you fire those Havoc launchers when the defiler can only fire snapshots when he uses his battle cannon?
Vindis have BS4 and using Dozer blades AND siege shield is nonsense, since you automatically pass terrain tests with the shield, why would you want to reroll them afterwards?

Against Necrons the Vindi works wonders(and practically is the only weapon to really do any damage against them). Against other stuff with long range anti tank I'd leave him at home.

I sometimes don't use the Defiler's cannon, but mostly i add those extra weapons for 'weapon destroyed' allocation.

That's interesting. Until now I didn't realize that you can put two havoc launchers + combibolter on the Defiler as well. However, I'm worried that it makes this already overcosted armour 12 vehicle even more expensive . Man, I really hate that rule that you can only fire snapshots if you fire an ordnance weapon...

 Intercessor wrote:
I'm really struggling whether to get Tri-Las Predators or Sicarans.... Sicaran are fast tank and better side and rear armour but still only 3 hull points. I watched a game lately where on the first turn all the Sicarans died tog Multi-Meltas without getting to fire a shot back.

and the Predetors wouldn't have died first turn? Frankly since Sicarans can buy Ceramite Armor, dying to melta turn 1 was actually avoidable

This is the single best anti tank/superheavy a chaos space marine player can take.

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Horus_Heresy/Deimos_Vindicator_Laser_Destroyer.pdf

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Intercessor wrote:
I'm really struggling whether to get Tri-Las Predators or Sicarans.... Sicaran are fast tank and better side and rear armour but still only 3 hull points. I watched a game lately where on the first turn all the Sicarans died tog Multi-Meltas without getting to fire a shot back.

and the Predetors wouldn't have died first turn? Frankly since Sicarans can buy Ceramite Armor, dying to melta turn 1 was actually avoidable

Well there are more points invested in the Sicarans, so no the predators may not have died first turn. Also they're a bit smaller being Rhino size, so easier to hide.

A pred with twin linked lasercannon and heavy bolter sponsons comes in fairly cheap and can hang back in your deployment zone, picking away at armor and massed infantry with some decent results. Tends to not draw too much fire and can punch through heavier armor.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Intercessor wrote:
I'm really struggling whether to get Tri-Las Predators or Sicarans.... Sicaran are fast tank and better side and rear armour but still only 3 hull points. I watched a game lately where on the first turn all the Sicarans died tog Multi-Meltas without getting to fire a shot back.

and the Predetors wouldn't have died first turn? Frankly since Sicarans can buy Ceramite Armor, dying to melta turn 1 was actually avoidable

The Sicaran with ceramite plating is only 150. It's got autocannons for MCs and light-medium armor and Rending on the venerator AC for heavier armor. It's got a hull HB as well. If you keep it cheap at 150 you still have a very tough and deadly, multipurpose tank that complements Oblits very well.