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If you take a quick gander over at proposed rules you can see that frequently people think the best way to give a slight buff to weapons and units is to give them a couple more low strength shots or add AP5 to a weapon. This doesn't seem like a big deal unless your playing a codex that revolves around poor armor saves or numbers to help you win.

So much of the last couple of power codexs is designed to feth over lower powered armies that it is a bit ridiculous. Marines in the last two editions have acquired tactical doctrines and chapter tactics which really hurts my Orks, since most take IF or Ultramarine tactics which basically makes all of those S4 AP5 shots become the bane of my ork existence.

Tau were already the bane of Orks as it was, the new toys they got though put them over into a new category of OP though. Between GMC,MCs and everything ignoring cover, I very rarely survive against tau, let alone win.

Eldar...well jesus, everything about Eldar screams Easy mode that its become a bit of a joke really. Scatter Bikes hurt everyone but they mulch Ork units like they aren't even there. I played a 100 man Green tide against an Eldar Scat bike army, my tide was destroyed almost completely by the end of turn 2, I conceded after that because I had no chance. But even if they don't take scat bikes they have multiple platforms that can take scatter lasers, they can also flash fry entire swathes of boyz using their D Flamers, or liquify my Battlewagonz with +3 on the pen chart Melta weapons. (against open topped its actually +4, so 3+ explodes, 2's immobilize the vehicle).

But going back to the main point here, so much of the recent releases are designed to hurt lower armor saves and spam multiple shots which destroy horde armies completely. The only thing I can think of that was a big release that really doesn't effect the lower tiers as much was the SM Grav weapons. I love seeing grav against my Orks because its basically useless.


The power imbalance right now in this game is drastic, to many things at this point destroy the lower tiers utterly that its becoming a bit of a joke. Two different games exist at the moment, Tau/SM/Eldar/Necrons/KDK play against one another and have a good time and CSM/Orks/IG/DE/BA/Nids play at another level where we have good games against each other.

SemperMortis wrote:
Tau/SM/Eldar/Necrons/KDK play against one another and have a good time and CSM/Orks/IG/DE/BA/Nids play at another level where we have good games against each other.

to be fair, no one has fun playing against Eldar.

 krodarklorr wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Tau/SM/Eldar/Necrons/KDK play against one another and have a good time and CSM/Orks/IG/DE/BA/Nids play at another level where we have good games against each other.

to be fair, no one has fun playing against Eldar.

People in my store seem to.

This seems to have a very similar point to the last threads about game imbalance. It still boils down to the same thing really - competitive play clearly favours some factions over others, and there's no real reason why other than the game has just become horribly imbalanced. What can you do about it? Play with people who don't play competitively and exploit unbound force organisation and top tier units. I don't think there is anything new for discussion here that hasn't been gone over before, unless I'm missing the point here.

G.A

pm713 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Tau/SM/Eldar/Necrons/KDK play against one another and have a good time and CSM/Orks/IG/DE/BA/Nids play at another level where we have good games against each other.

to be fair, no one has fun playing against Eldar.

People in my store seem to.

Although I guess it can depend on both the players themselves and the list they bring but I gotta agree with Krodarklorr, everyone I know avoids playing against Eldar

 Huron black heart wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Tau/SM/Eldar/Necrons/KDK play against one another and have a good time and CSM/Orks/IG/DE/BA/Nids play at another level where we have good games against each other.

to be fair, no one has fun playing against Eldar.

People in my store seem to.

Although I guess it can depend on both the players themselves and the list they bring but I gotta agree with Krodarklorr, everyone I know avoids playing against Eldar

Is that because of Eldar or because of the players. I'm guessing the second.

The ways the rules are now mid strength multi shot weapons are great at killing everything. Some armies have plenty of those, some don't. Those that don't have them obviously want them.

I'm not sure where the adding of AP5 as a desired buff comes from, i haven't noticed that.

pm713 wrote:

 Huron black heart wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Tau/SM/Eldar/Necrons/KDK play against one another and have a good time and CSM/Orks/IG/DE/BA/Nids play at another level where we have good games against each other.

to be fair, no one has fun playing against Eldar.

People in my store seem to.

Although I guess it can depend on both the players themselves and the list they bring but I gotta agree with Krodarklorr, everyone I know avoids playing against Eldar

Is that because of Eldar or because of the players. I'm guessing the second.

It can easily be both. I have some pretty chill guys at my local store, but there are somedays where I really do not feel like fighting Warp Spyders and Shuricannon bikes. God forbid the times where they bring even one Wraithknight.

SemperMortis wrote:

So much of the last couple of power codexs is designed to feth over lower powered armies that it is a bit ridiculous.

If you constantly have a feeling that everything in the world is turning around you, it's time to take your pills.

 krodarklorr wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Huron black heart wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Tau/SM/Eldar/Necrons/KDK play against one another and have a good time and CSM/Orks/IG/DE/BA/Nids play at another level where we have good games against each other.

to be fair, no one has fun playing against Eldar.

People in my store seem to.

Although I guess it can depend on both the players themselves and the list they bring but I gotta agree with Krodarklorr, everyone I know avoids playing against Eldar

Is that because of Eldar or because of the players. I'm guessing the second.

It can easily be both. I have some pretty chill guys at my local store, but there are somedays where I really do not feel like fighting Warp Spyders and Shuricannon bikes. God forbid the times where they bring even one Wraithknight.

It's a shame there's nothing else in the book isn't it.

It is most definitely the players fault.
It stems from immaturity - if you think you can only enjoy the game by winning then 40k suits you down to the ground because it has no balance and all you have to consider is basically 'rock-paper-scissors' with the most powerful armies.
The journey is more important than the destination and 40k can only offer you disappointment at giving or taking a curb-stomping as each of you take turns with the latest hard-counter strategy.

Recognise that the game is fethed beyond recognition and move on, dude.

pm713 wrote:

It's a shame there's nothing else in the book isn't it.

There are plenty of things. But no one uses the vehicles/Wraithlords/storm guardians/guardians. And then you have the Aspect, which are all really good (minus maybe howling bansees and Spears). Sure, if you can find someone who uses a variety of units, that's cool. It doesn't mean that even those units aren't still better than a lot of units other codexes have.

I think much of it is the players.... although people do have opinions when they hear eldar... for example. I pretty much only play fantasy.. As the season of war was finishing and I knew the 40k players would basically reclaim the store, I decided I would try 40k. So, I talked to a bunch of them that jumped into AOS for the season of war. They said what do you want to play. I was like I want something way different than fantasy. I want guns, vehicles, flyers etc. I also wanted something with a start collecting box for the value. I wanted units with fairly easily to figure out loadouts and tactics. And I didnt want to do marines. I painted my space hulk ones and I am never happy with them. They all said eldar. So, I played my first few games last weekend to find out eldar is mostly considered OP but they will play with some people that have them and me bc I am new. But as its my only army, I am obviously going to play them but as it seems powerful I bought some guardians, I didnt make all my bikes scat bikes. So, I think it is up to the players. Personally, even with AOS, I want an actual game not a blow out. I saw another eldar player last weekend look for a game for an hour bc no one wants to play his power list. I have tabled people in AOS and that isn't really why I play.

Because GW lives off the salt of the players' tears.

There's a sad article by Jervis Johnson (head of design) about hating points and tournament mind set. Why I bring this up is that there was a direct push from the top to NOT worry about balance and thus why we end up with insanely powerful codices like Eldar. The intentional push to not worry about external balance is why it seems like certain codices are just punished but it is out of idiocy not malice. Ultimately we need a system where you can play a pickup game but have some sort of balancing mechanism that just because you can bring or afford something doesn't mean you should and placing down any unit in any codex shouldn't be an automatic detriment or loss.

 buddha wrote:
There's a sad article by Jervis Johnson (head of design) about hating points and tournament mind set. Why I bring this up is that there was a direct push from the top to NOT worry about balance and thus why we end up with insanely powerful codices like Eldar. The intentional push to not worry about external balance is why it seems like certain codices are just punished but it is out of idiocy not malice. Ultimately we need a system where you can play a pickup game but have some sort of balancing mechanism that just because you can bring or afford something doesn't mean you should and placing down any unit in any codex shouldn't be an automatic detriment or loss.

Why even come out with codexes and a game if that's their mindset? "Yes, this army is supposed to be ridiculously powerful, and this one we're okay with being very bad". You're creating an unplayable scenario, here.

IIRC the article said that points are good because you can get pickup games easily by arranging for 1k pts etc but JJ started to go on about the "play to win" attitude and how wrong that was.

 krodarklorr wrote:

pm713 wrote:

It's a shame there's nothing else in the book isn't it.

There are plenty of things. But no one uses the vehicles/Wraithlords/storm guardians/guardians. And then you have the Aspect, which are all really good (minus maybe howling bansees and Spears). Sure, if you can find someone who uses a variety of units, that's cool. It doesn't mean that even those units aren't still better than a lot of units other codexes have.

Well, I seem to be nobody then My eldar list has a Stormhost with an Avatar as its core, and it's wicked fun to play. Tons of psychic dice to throw around and nobody expects the little stormies to get buffed up and hit like a truck.

the_scotsman wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

pm713 wrote:

It's a shame there's nothing else in the book isn't it.

There are plenty of things. But no one uses the vehicles/Wraithlords/storm guardians/guardians. And then you have the Aspect, which are all really good (minus maybe howling bansees and Spears). Sure, if you can find someone who uses a variety of units, that's cool. It doesn't mean that even those units aren't still better than a lot of units other codexes have.

Well, I seem to be nobody then My eldar list has a Stormhost with an Avatar as its core, and it's wicked fun to play. Tons of psychic dice to throw around and nobody expects the little stormies to get buffed up and hit like a truck.

And that sounds like a fun list to play against. I wish I could find someone who would play that.

pm713 wrote:
IIRC the article said that points are good because you can get pickup games easily by arranging for 1k pts etc but JJ started to go on about the "play to win" attitude and how wrong that was.

Back in the day when White Dwarf had actual battle reports with staff members I can never remember a time when Jervis won a game. It wasn't like the others had "unfluffy" or hard lists - he was just truly awful as a tactician in a time when tactics actually mattered. Maybe this is part of his issue.

pm713 wrote:

It's a shame there's nothing else in the book isn't it.

There's plenty of available units in the book, as well as all sorts of lore that says what would be brought for what situation, as well as how. There are literally thousands of pages dedicated to explaining how armies fight and what they tend to bring to conflicts of varying sizes and situations, yet for some reason all that happens is tunnel vision on behalf of players to a few select units, especially within the Eldar codex. There's a reason why tons of different formations are starting to exist, as it shows how the armies are envisioned to handle tons of different situations, rather than going with a "meta" approach such as the approach that's constantly complained about on these forums and elsewhere on the internet. I realize that psychology comes into play with the whole wanting to win rather than lose, but at the same time that shouldn't cloud out all of the lore and other information about what's deployed when and where.

For instance, Eldar are never going to find themselves deploying Wraithknights to every conflict. If they're forced to deploy one, then there's a pretty high VIP that just died on the battlefield whose stone they can't get to and need to retrieve, AND, they're doing AWFUL in that current campaign. Hell, the situation has to be pretty dire in and of itself (in this case you should be deploying Eldar-esque terrain on your table to simulate a Craftworld invasion) if the Eldar, outside of Iyanden are deploying wraiths en masse.

Another example is that the Space Marines aren't going to be deploying full Battle Companies (Double BDC Gladius) to every single conflict, as once again it has become a conflict of some measure for them to say they need to deploy 1/10th of a chapter to one specific battlefield.

And if you really have to come up with a reason to use your Wraithknight, then start running every mission where your HQ is dead and their model is the one that the Wraithknight, first and foremost, needs to reach on the table and bring back to your table edge and then has to roll on whether it stays once it has completed its mission. In the case of the Space Marines, make some sort of Doomsday bunker siege mission where you need to break the line and get in there and take back whatever is of the utmost importance to the Chapter that, once again, 1/10th of its entire Chapter needs to dedicate its attention to.

And then to continue on the whole subject of power lists, you really just need to stop saying "meta" in any shape, or claiming X, Y, Z, A`, [...], etc won't win you games. There are all sorts of Battle Reports on YouTube that show people winning with sub-optimal lists with units that shouldn't have won, yet did, even when they're entirely unpopular and had no business doing anything because they're "awful."

There's so much of "this is the only way to do..." going on that its the community that's made things seem as useless as they are. Space Marine Tac Squads as a tax, when they're usually the focus of most attacks, with the armor just being there to get them in position. Saying to take Scouts over Tac Squads, when this would never be the case (unless you've come up with a lore friendly explanation for why it's happening this way.). Thousands of pages of lore thrown to the flames about what armies do when and how and yet "It's a shame there's nothing else in the book isn't it"....

Because there are a significant group of players who like to do the curb stomping (or at least fantasizing about it) and pay good money for models, codexes and supplements who let them do it. You don't want to believe how many screamers where sold just because of the screamer star, and how little of them got actually use in games or resold later on.

 amanita wrote:

pm713 wrote:
IIRC the article said that points are good because you can get pickup games easily by arranging for 1k pts etc but JJ started to go on about the "play to win" attitude and how wrong that was.

Back in the day when White Dwarf had actual battle reports with staff members I can never remember a time when Jervis won a game. It wasn't like the others had "unfluffy" or hard lists - he was just truly awful as a tactician in a time when tactics actually mattered. Maybe this is part of his issue.

Reminds me of the TFG at my store. Someone used Invisibility and he started claiming it was cheating and the "he could see it" and didn't stop whining until after all the spectators of the game told him it was a psychic power.

SemperMortis wrote:
If you take a quick gander over at proposed rules you can see that frequently people think the best way to give a slight buff to weapons and units is to give them a couple more low strength shots or add AP5 to a weapon. This doesn't seem like a big deal unless your playing a codex that revolves around poor armor saves or numbers to help you win.

So much of the last couple of power codexs is designed to feth over lower powered armies that it is a bit ridiculous. Marines in the last two editions have acquired tactical doctrines and chapter tactics which really hurts my Orks, since most take IF or Ultramarine tactics which basically makes all of those S4 AP5 shots become the bane of my ork existence.

Tau were already the bane of Orks as it was, the new toys they got though put them over into a new category of OP though. Between GMC,MCs and everything ignoring cover, I very rarely survive against tau, let alone win.

Eldar...well jesus, everything about Eldar screams Easy mode that its become a bit of a joke really. Scatter Bikes hurt everyone but they mulch Ork units like they aren't even there. I played a 100 man Green tide against an Eldar Scat bike army, my tide was destroyed almost completely by the end of turn 2, I conceded after that because I had no chance. But even if they don't take scat bikes they have multiple platforms that can take scatter lasers, they can also flash fry entire swathes of boyz using their D Flamers, or liquify my Battlewagonz with +3 on the pen chart Melta weapons. (against open topped its actually +4, so 3+ explodes, 2's immobilize the vehicle).

But going back to the main point here, so much of the recent releases are designed to hurt lower armor saves and spam multiple shots which destroy horde armies completely. The only thing I can think of that was a big release that really doesn't effect the lower tiers as much was the SM Grav weapons. I love seeing grav against my Orks because its basically useless.


The power imbalance right now in this game is drastic, to many things at this point destroy the lower tiers utterly that its becoming a bit of a joke. Two different games exist at the moment, Tau/SM/Eldar/Necrons/KDK play against one another and have a good time and CSM/Orks/IG/DE/BA/Nids play at another level where we have good games against each other.

You are playing what is best known as a currency army. They are placed into the game to make other people seem better and cooler. Just think of the hate that would happen if space marines where the basic and everyone else was better then them in some way.... Well the poster bous would not be so cool.

Now make a poster boy able to do anything and kill thousands well now kids flock to him. Currency units and armies are in every game sadly it is life everyone needs a step to walk over.

If you want to see something funny. Look at the older popularities of the 40k races and in particular the differences between pre 6th eldar and Tau and current popularity of eldar and tau. This will show you the effect of curb stomping codexes. Tons of players suddenly flock towards them.

Curse all those players who play the game in a way I dislike! They're the reason the game sucks. Of course the way I play is the one true path to fun. If only all the players who play the way I dislike would stop, the game would be fine!

Certainly the rules are not to blame here. It's obviously the players fault for using them.

 Blacksails wrote:
Curse all those players who play the game in a way I dislike! They're the reason the game sucks. Of course the way I play is the one true path to fun. If only all the players who play the way I dislike would stop, the game would be fine!

Certainly the rules are not to blame here. It's obviously the players fault for using them.

I think most people are actually asking for balance, nobody is forced to play a certain way and nobody even said that. If you have managed to find a group of like minded individuals then you'r doing well and I envy you. (I wish I could) 40k tends to draw the worst wargamers (imo) and draws the worst out of them. And without being able to back any of this up with facts or figuresI'd guess the current 'top dog codex' will be what they're using (again imo)

Precisely. While I don't play current 40K I can see the frustration where certain armies are so imbalanced that it's nigh impossible to win a competitive game with them. At that point you can say an army/codex is completely broken.

The ideal solution would be to play with players that you know and that understand your codex is crap and are willing to play a more reasonable list. However a lot of players don't have that option, and are playing pick-up games with people or attempting to attend tournaments with a book which is impossible to win a game with.

That sucks. My personal opinion is that I simply wouldn't play but that's a crap answer for a lot of people who maybe really enjoy the hobby aspect or want to enjoy the game without being "forced" by the meta and gaming atmosphere into playing an army they're not interested in.

 buddha wrote:
There's a sad article by Jervis Johnson (head of design) about hating points and tournament mind set. Why I bring this up is that there was a direct push from the top to NOT worry about balance and thus why we end up with insanely powerful codices like Eldar. The intentional push to not worry about external balance is why it seems like certain codices are just punished but it is out of idiocy not malice. Ultimately we need a system where you can play a pickup game but have some sort of balancing mechanism that just because you can bring or afford something doesn't mean you should and placing down any unit in any codex shouldn't be an automatic detriment or loss.

This post is correct however AoS was Jervis theory put to practice and it failed badly (combined with Kirby cost cutting out almost all community rep)
Hence why roundtree and the current administration is pushing toward more community engagement and putting organized structure back into AoS.

However to be fair Jervis article wasn't that points were bad, but that points encouraged min/maxing and gaming the system which is bad. He doesn't believe absolute balance is obtainable and he is likely correct.

 krodarklorr wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Tau/SM/Eldar/Necrons/KDK play against one another and have a good time and CSM/Orks/IG/DE/BA/Nids play at another level where we have good games against each other.

to be fair, no one has fun playing against Eldar.

Nobody has fun playing against donkey-caves who play Eldar. They don't have much fun playing against donkey-caves who play anything else either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

OgreChubbs wrote:
...Currency units and armies are in every game sadly it is life everyone needs a step to walk over.

Point of order. What's the 'currency unit/army' in Warmachine? Infinity? Bolt Action?