Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

My gaming group has come to the conclusion that when our resident nid player finally gets to use his shiny new titan that we will test it out with a 3++ (according to the old warp field rules or something like that). The main argument for this is that the supremacy suit has a 4++ to shooting and the D while being similar toughness but ultimately 400 points cheaper.

So how on earth do you kill a GMC with a great save and some ridiculous regeneration rule (IIRC it gets to try for a 6+ regen roll per wound lost)? The good save makes me want high RoF weapons, but in order to put wounds on in the first place high str is needed. In my (limited) experience the two tend to be mutually exclusive.

The best I can think of is grav bikes/sternguard/cents, any other options that would work (for tau/C:SM)?

Thanks in advance

Dont play it?

or house rule other things.

or play it a few times, and once they realize its too good or bad they will adjust accordingly. but its a house rule you do you man.

Spam Grav and D. Really the only thing you can do here.

That's whats I thought... So just bring the nastiest/cheesiest stuff I can and pray for good hit rolls, basically.
Would it be better to take 10 Grav sternguard in a pod, 9 + libby for shooting buffs in pod, or cents in pod? I only have one pod, so some poor fether will have to take the bus right up to the bugs feet - unlikely to make it, in other words.

Also, the eldar player is eager to throw his revenant titan at it (pacific rim style), most likely with the 4 D blast build. Is there any point in allying a supremacy suit for my army? Seems a bit out of it's weight class here

Indeed. If you give it that much of a save, Destroyer is the way to go. With a decent invulnerable save and Feel No Pain, grav weapons are a bit unreliable.

The 'normal' Hierodule is very good up to a point; that is - firing anything less than a lascannon at it is a waste, no matter the quantity of fire you have available (I think it needs something like 200 scatter laser bursts to bring one down, even if it never regenerates!), whilst 6 grav centurions can reliably drop it in one volley of fire.

Personally I'd have given it a points chop rather than trying to bulk it up; the Hierophant feels about right to me - and turbolaser fire should easy-bake it.

I'd actually suggest a cover save rather than an invulnerable save. The thing is fast as buggery (Agile means it can run twice per turn) and if you let it get into close combat....you're doing it wrong (the bio-titan having the WS and initiative advantage over most opponents, superheavy or not!).

my suggested houserule would be to let it use more than one of the Imperial Armour Anphelion biomorphs simultaneously. Transport Sacs with a Venomthrope inside is nasty - and a cover save is arguably more appropriate; stopping gunfire but not close assault, and shrouded makes it easy to pick up a 3+ cover save, whilst Incendiary Ichor makes it even more terrifying in an assault; it's big weakness at the moment is that you can't take both.

It's a Heirophant, a 1000 points if uselessness, a 3++ is a nice boost to it's survivability but doesn't remotely help the fact that it's damage output is amssively below par for a unit of that size and points cost.

Grav Cents with a Libby rolling Prescience will knock off quit a few wounds. For Tau a Supremecy suit will easily destroy it as would Stormsurges with their D missiles.

Of course if your friend is bringing a Revenant Titan you can just leave the Heirophant to it's 4 Pulsar shots, it'll be gone in a couple of turns with that kind of firepower.

Yeah just ignore it and kill the rest of his army.

I have only played mine twice, first game it was dead first shot from a D shot. Guy rolled all 6 and was just enough to take it down (First shot of the game too).

Second game she lasted a bit longer, but a large unit of TWC was able to take it down before it could take all of them out. It is really overpriced for what it can do.

Let it obliterate you. Don't even try to fight it.

If power-hungry bullys/idiots want to make up stupid cheese, let them get it out of their system.

Afterwards, if they don't realize what a mistake they've made. They're not the kind of people you want to be hanging out with anyway.

 Galef wrote:
Yeah just ignore it and kill the rest of his army.

This. All of the this

How does a supremacy suit have this thing beat? Do masses of str10 + a better save win vs a single strD and a few weaker shots? Or do you mean that the suit + 400 points of other things > biotitan?

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Let it obliterate you. Don't even try to fight it.

If power-hungry bullys/idiots want to make up stupid cheese, let them get it out of their system.

Afterwards, if they don't realize what a mistake they've made. They're not the kind of people you want to be hanging out with anyway.

I don't mean to misrepresent the guy - He's anything but a cheesemonger, the main reason for the houserule is to attempt to balance the biotitan to be roughly equivalent to 1000 points of supremacy suit (if that makes any sense). As none of us have no experience fiddling with stats (or playing with titans, for that matter), an improved save was agreed to be the simplest fix, regardless of whether it was the most appropriate option. I'm expecting the changes to be toned down a lot after we finally get round to using it and realising what a monster we've created. I actually love the idea of a points chop. Much more appropriate.

The Biotitan has AP3 guns. It will never kill a supremacy suit.

oohhhhhh..... they're only ap3? That makes a lot more sense now

Honestly the Heirophant is a complete joke for the points it costs! Mine has been taken down in one Grav volley last year. It really only comes out for fun themed games . It used to have a 3++ and even then I found it to be balanced but certainly not over powered. Granted it would regenerate a couple of wounds back from time to time.

But seriously house ruling it to have its warp field save back is the bare minimum I would consider using it again and anyone complaining about it should step back and take a long hard look at how the game has changed over the last couple of years. Obviously you need high strength weapons to tackle it, it's a freaking bio-titan. But as mentioned just ignore it, it's damage output is laughable for what it costs. I would even go so far as to say it's the single most over costed single model produced.

Then again it's Nids and they just flat out suck all over so why should this be any different.

Personally speaking it should have the 3++ along with AP2 on its cannons.
Even then it's a joke.

I ran mine for 3 games in total then got fed up and sold it on.
It's rules really do nothing to help it and with current books its a joke.

Strength D, grav, any form of anti tank will do.

While it takes a bit of shooting to knock down, its damage output is just sad.
You could just ignore it the entire game and it wouldn't earn its points back.

Again, being able to take all the biomorphs at once would help a lot; it becomes a bloody lethal monstrosity in close combat (even more so than it already is!) and gets the option to protect itself cheaply with a decent cover save and a load more firepower (essentially a half dozen biovores, one-and-a-half quad-guns and a scythed hierodules hellstorm acid spray).

Tyranids paying double or more what other races pay for our sub par GMCs is a sad state of affairs.

The faction most identified with MCs being worse at fielding the unit type than Tau, Eldar and Daemons is also a glaring failure in game design.

To be fair, the Heirophant needs a better invunerable save. In its current rules it gets a 6++ which is ridiculous compared to what damage it can dish out (12 shots of AP3 at BS3) and its point cost.

General consensus in my gaming group is that all Tyranid GMCs are about twice the cost that they should be in this current meta.

If you don't give it the 3++, its not worth putting on the table at 1000 points.

The alternative is to cost it more appropriately, which is probably around 400 points.

That said, when you start putting the crazy stuff on the table for big games, its probably best to start ignoring points and work out collectively how to ensure you all get an enjoyable experience out the game.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Let it obliterate you. Don't even try to fight it.

If power-hungry bullys/idiots want to make up stupid cheese, let them get it out of their system.

Afterwards, if they don't realize what a mistake they've made. They're not the kind of people you want to be hanging out with anyway.

I take it you have no idea how bad the Heirophant is otherwise you'd know just how silly this comment is.

Yup, a 3++ is about the only way it should ever see the table. You won't have too many problems taking it down, the thing is 1000 pojnts after all.

That makes it significantly more expensive than a warehouse Titan and the Titan would kill it before it got to do any damage back with it's current stats.

I will also chime in my two cents. There is a reason I own a Harridan and not a grounder... while they look scary and intimidating, a heirophant will not do what you think it does. Ironically, 1000 pts of screamer killers would do more.

How not to kill it should be the question. You know how many knights or wright knights you could field for the same cost of that monster right ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also its footprint is huge. Just tie it up with whatever, or buy some tactically placed fortifications denying its movement.
It needs to murder trough 166+ points a turn to ever make its points back.

2-3 Knights. Which - to be honest - I'd actually give it a fair chance of beating the crap out of if you can use it tactically.

If you can shoot a knight with both biocannons and charge it, the Hierophant should do an average of 1.5 hull points from shooting (assuming ion shield and frontal armour), 0.5 hull points from Hammer of Wrath, and just over 4.4 hull points from its 10 WS6 S10 AP2 attacks on the charge.
Thanks to Swiftstrike on those lashwhips, it's I6 and striking before the knight.

The challenge will be trying to take the knights on one-by-one. Incendiary Ichor gives you a bit of leeway; because a knight who causes serious damage to a hierophant in melee will die, instantly - Incendiary Ichor does D3 automatic penetrating hits to a vehicle every time the Hierophant takes a wound.

A Deathblow result should result in mutual annhihalation, but barring that you should win, and knightly ranged weapons are unlikely to do much more than annoy a hierophant. It's just Grav-cannons and ranged destroyer weapons that make them feel vulnerable.