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That's not even the point, but kudos to you for trying, I guess.

 nintura wrote:
Ive always found the human side of the story in any game to be boring. They are always the heroes doing heroic things. They are the action hero stars to their own movies. They have no story, no build up of how they win, just that they do, and always at the last minute when things always seem down and at their lowest. RG coming back and making new marines is just that. It's literally nothing new so why does it change things?

I think you are exactly right, and I think that is why this advancement upsets people. The way the humans or the the good guys in stories always win in the end no matter what. It never matters how bad it is they will get a lucky break right at the end and they will triumph. 40K provided a setting where everyone knew that was not the case. They knew there was no hope of a last second victory by the humans. That is what made the setting interesting and not boring, but now with the primarchs return it seems that we really were just in the same boring, "heroes-win-in-the-end" universe that everything else exists within. I am not saying that the Imperium is going to win because of this, but now there is that faint glimmer of hope that no one really wanted to see because it makes all this lore that much less unique because of it.

 nintura wrote:
Ive always found the human side of the story in any game to be boring. They are always the heroes doing heroic things. They are the action hero stars to their own movies. They have no story, no build up of how they win, just that they do, and always at the last minute when things always seem down and at their lowest. RG coming back and making new marines is just that. It's literally nothing new so why does it change things?

Show me the real stories. You always get to see how a particular chaos lord came into power. You always get to see their plans and how they place the pieces. The bad guys always build the fight, but the good guys just always win through perseverance in the end by strength of will or luck. This is why no matter what GW does with the empire, I'll never care how it affects the over-arching story, because it doesn't matter.

Show me the story of the nids. How they came from another galaxy and are so massive, even on a galactic scale, we cannot see the other side of their swarm.

Show me how the old necrons worshiped their star gods who didn't give two gaks about you or your soul. How they just wanted to devour you like some Final Fantasy villain who just wants to return everything to nothingness.

Even on a more lighter note, show me how the orks dont care about literally anything but fighting. They don't care about dying. That's even simpler and better than anything about the empire.

I completely disagree.

I can think of any reason why a story about Elves or Space Bugs in somehow more interesting or better written than that same story about humans. Especially since the fiction race of Elves are simple twists on older human cultures that 'stuck' over time.

For my part, (And this is coming from a Eldar player first) the only part of the story that ever mattered was the Imperium - specifically space marines - vs chaos. It was a fun, entertaining, and slightly unique story. The other imperial factions such as the Imperial Guard, the Inquisition, etc. are there to provide further depth and character to the setting, which they did very well. The fact that they are also playable factions is just icing on the cake. The other species such as Eldar and Orks did a lot ot enrich the setting even more by adding more flavor. The Eldar in particular because they were so central to the far history of the setting.

The more they 'added' the weaker the original recipe became. Necrons (as awesome as the models look - and they do look awesome), they are the most absurd addition to the game and they did s much more hamr than good by being squeezed in. It required that the GW writers literally write over existing materlal (Eldar).

The Tau are actually a lot like the 'Nids. They came in late and don't really fit thematically into the universe. Both of these factions should have remained a footnote in the other books as the 'myriad of other races' that the Imperium occasionally encounter on distant worlds. Now, it's not that I don't like the Tau - just like the 'Nids they have some amazing looking minis. They are even passingly fun to play on the table. Unlike the 'Nids I won't say that should never have been introduced, but instead they should have been introduced as the 'black hats' that they clearly are. GW's constant attempts to paint them as 'good guys' in a universe full of bad just cheapens the narrative further. There is no place for that sort of character - It would be like having Fonzie making an appearance in a Spawn graphic novel... they just don't go together.

So... I'm just a future-fiction-racist right? I mean, I just hate other races for gaks? No, I just happen to know a thing or two about literature and how to construct a reasonable narrative within an internally consistent setting. And GW is working against that goal here.

The 'new' lore is doing the same thing at an excelerated pace. It's diluting something richer than itself.

tneva82 wrote:

 nintura wrote:
You aren't looking at it in his light. The way he wants it, GW could never make new stories and such because they didn't think to make these characters and/or storylines 20 years ago when they started out.

Or they would have to do it smarter than deus-ex-machine that suddenly comes and solves everything.

Which really, really isn't hard to do.

I am personally hoping that despite their best efforts, all they managed to do was revive the old thunder warrior project and these primaris marines will ultimately be a failure. No one should be able to overcome the Emperors brilliance.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
40k seems to have no end in sight, and that feels weird as well, because how do you defeat Chaos? Hell, at least with the Tyranids, if you blow up enough fleets, you might win, but Chaos?

It's odd to me.

Well, baring Necron style solutions, not being awful to each other would be a good first step. The less violence, greed, self indulgence and lies in the galaxy, the less relevant the threat of entities that feed on those things. Which is obviously not going to happen, but there you go.

tneva82 wrote:


No decision. You don't lose anything really by charging and you get closer which helps surrounding it next turn. If you dont' charge it moves away and you won't likely be able to surround it.

Charge, hack, when it disengages hope you survive and charge again.

Since it sounds like you don't charge after running (unless you're special) then you need to decide whether it's better to run instead of charge.

If you move even if you fail then you need to decide if it's worth coming out of cover (if you are in).

If there are units nearby you need to decide if you want to get closer to get a better chance of snaking them into combat.

I don't buy the "Gee, everyone was telling them to advance the fluff". I certainly never did. It is a big fraking galaxy. They needed new stories, not a whole new setting. Bringing back A SINGLE Primarch was a an interesting story line that they could have eaten off of for years before having him die or found his own independent enclave or something. Blowing everything up, bringing back ALL the primarchs and warp rifting everything is at best excessive. The Imperium was always the setting, not the story, and that worked fine. Now they are locking themselves into producing bigger and bigger "Revelations" rather than doing the kind of small scale stories that invite gamers to create their own narratives. What are they going to do in 10 years? The Emperor Fought Khorne and it was AWESOME and then there were 10 million warp rifts and ONE BILLION new Primarchs!

Maybe is because I'm a Tau player, but to me, the Imperium of Humanity regaining "hope" and launching a crusade makes many things to the setting, but making it less "Grimdark" is none of those.

The most genocidical race in the Galaxy, launching another Crusade to exterminate millions of alien species and even human civilizations that opposse them? Uh... I'll go back to my Sept, this is gonna be bad.

A Chaos Black Crusade was bad enough, with a Tyranid fleet at our back... but now a Imperial Crusade? I don't think our plot armour can resist that

 kestral wrote:
I don't buy the "Gee, everyone was telling them to advance the fluff". I certainly never did. It is a big fraking galaxy. They needed new stories, not a whole new setting. Bringing back A SINGLE Primarch was a an interesting story line that they could have eaten off of for years before having him die or found his own independent enclave or something. Blowing everything up, bringing back ALL the primarchs and warp rifting everything is at best excessive. The Imperium was always the setting, not the story, and that worked fine. Now they are locking themselves into producing bigger and bigger "Revelations" rather than doing the kind of small scale stories that invite gamers to create their own narratives. What are they going to do in 10 years? The Emperor Fought Khorne and it was AWESOME and then there were 10 million warp rifts and ONE BILLION new Primarchs!

It's not a *whole* new setting.

Also the problem with just one primarch is the rest of the community says, "What about us?".

 Galas wrote:
Maybe is because I'm a Tau player, but to me, the Imperium of Humanity regaining "hope" and launching a crusade makes many things to the setting, but making it less "Grimdark" is none of those.

The most genocidical race in the Galaxy, launching another Crusade to exterminate millions of alien species and even human civilizations that opposse them? Uh... I'll go back to my Sept, this is gonna be bad.

A Chaos Black Crusade was bad enough, with a Tyranid fleet at our back... but now a Imperial Crusade? I don't think our plot armour can resist that

lulz - Tau player calling humans genocidal. Good stuff...

Go feed your kroot.

40K has been all grimdark all the time since 3rd Edition, right after they killed off the last of the goofy elements (squats) and went all in on the theme. 40K has been grimdark, 1 minute to midnight, every codex ready to do... something, for a long long time. If there was humor, it was black humor. It was the Dark Ages set in the future and it was unrelentingly bleak, but time had paused so that nothing actually happened. 40k for a long time was more of a setting rather than a story. The codices has stories in them, but the narrative was never pushed forward so the tone was pretty consistent. That is until the Iyanden supplement, and you started to see a story within the present time of the setting. Every campaign and Gathering Storm book has told the story, and with it the setting has changed.

The tone HAS shifted in 40k. Its is moving away from the grimdark toward a more classic struggle between good, evil, and "wild card" forces. The universe of 40k used to be vast, now it feels smaller, with a galactic map that is simpler and a small group of named heroes who appear to be the prime movers in a vast universe. The game is changing as well in an attempt to be easier to learn and shorter to play.

In short, 40k is changing with the times. People who love the grimdark and enjoy 4 hour games with their friends may not appreciate what is happening and I get that. I see it as more of an effort to appeal to the changing tastes of the market place and to try and get new players into the hobby.

Personally I find a lot of the recent story cheesy, but I appreciate it and enjoy 40k for what it is. The grimdark is cool, but at some point It gets tiring and I'm OK with a change.

Warhams-77 wrote:

RazorEdge wrote:
I came from my FLGS, he said 8th Edition can be pre ordered next week.

Thanks for posting, yes it seems there are more and more people from europe reporting this today.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

To clarify if the info is correct this would mean preorder on the Warhammer Fest weekend

Where is this info coming from?

 kestral wrote:
I don't buy the "Gee, everyone was telling them to advance the fluff". I certainly never did. It is a big fraking galaxy. They needed new stories, not a whole new setting. Bringing back A SINGLE Primarch was a an interesting story line that they could have eaten off of for years before having him die or found his own independent enclave or something. Blowing everything up, bringing back ALL the primarchs and warp rifting everything is at best excessive. The Imperium was always the setting, not the story, and that worked fine. Now they are locking themselves into producing bigger and bigger "Revelations" rather than doing the kind of small scale stories that invite gamers to create their own narratives. What are they going to do in 10 years? The Emperor Fought Khorne and it was AWESOME and then there were 10 million warp rifts and ONE BILLION new Primarchs!

This guy gets it.

It takes a very competent writer to construct a narrative in which they reveal just enough to engage the audience, yet no so much that they answer questions before they are asked. It's called, 'leaving things up to your imagination', and it's a trick that modern writers are woefully ignorant of.

Oldhammer was was famous for this. It has so many possibilities and they went out of their way NOT to make things concrete. You could interpret things how you liked and it prompted people to be creative and parcipate in their narrative in that way,

This Newhammer BS is the exacpt opposite of that. It leaves nothing to imagination and constricts the entire narrative to 'what will out heroes do next, tune in next week for...The adventures of RG and his merry band of marines as they save the galaxy from another...'

The Tau are actually a lot like the 'Nids. They came in late and don't really fit thematically into the universe.

Hmm - well The Nids are in my Rogue Trader book so they are there from the start ??? Pretty much the same background - p200 onwards

 Mr Morden wrote:

The Tau are actually a lot like the 'Nids. They came in late and don't really fit thematically into the universe.

Hmm - well The Nids are in my Rogue Trader book so they are there from the start ??? Pretty much the same background - p200 onwards

Sorry, I typo'd. Menat to say 'crons not 'nids

 En Excelsis wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

The Tau are actually a lot like the 'Nids. They came in late and don't really fit thematically into the universe.

Hmm - well The Nids are in my Rogue Trader book so they are there from the start ??? Pretty much the same background - p200 onwards

Sorry, I typo'd. Menat to say 'crons not 'nids

Ah right - fair enough - Necrons were pretty grim dark in their first incarnation.

Setting chnages are risky - the different era's of BattleTech being a prime example.

Cron's were in 3rd? Or 4th. Can't remember. Maybe earlier. They just didnt have a fleshed out story. There was a black and white photo of one in the rule book. Then they came out as a handful of models about a race that's waking up before they got their first official codex. They've been around a very long time.

https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/3/37/Hrud4.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/251?cb=20121020095721

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/17/new-warhammer-40000-reserves-and-deep-striking-may17gw-homepage-post-4/

Reserves article up. I'm liking what I am seeing.

Tactical Reserves

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/17/new-warhammer-40000-reserves-and-deep-striking-may17gw-homepage-post-4/

It's a big galaxy, there's plenty of room for exportable IP

 nintura wrote:
Cron's were in 3rd? Or 4th. Can't remember. Maybe earlier. They just didnt have a fleshed out story. There was a black and white photo of one in the rule book. Then they came out as a handful of models about a race that's waking up before they got their first official codex. They've been around a very long time.

https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/3/37/Hrud4.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/251?cb=20121020095721

Necrons were introduced at the end of 2nd edition in a White Dwarf. Scarabs were toughness 8!

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/17/new-warhammer-40000-reserves-and-deep-striking-may17gw-homepage-post-4/

Article:


Edit: Damn, I am defeated.

Yep, had the old 2nd ed models. Good times.

My friends and I always look at the codex fluff as if it is written as a propaganda piece for the army which then gets fleshed out in other areas.

Example: Draigo Taking out Mortarion. Well in mortarions heart we learn that he was getting his ass kicked but luckily had Mortarions true name and remembered to wear his GOD DAMN HELMET.

So when we look at fluff we know there is so much context missing that makes it plausible.

Well, at least that is how my friends and I read things so the Matt Ward fluff never bothered us.

Its kind of like how in the Ciaphus Cain books, the exerpts from other writers always talk about him doing things single handed, forgetting about the troopers with him, and ESPECIALLY forgetting about Jurgen.

You know, academically since they're getting rid of special rules, I knew that outflank was gone.

Not sure why it hurts so much now that they've officially mentioned it...

So definitely no mishap. You just setup 9" away without scatter. AND you can charge the turn you deepstrike? o.O

Yup as expected we got the AoS version.

I wonder if all units that "deep strike" can come in during any movement phase the way the Trygon can.

 nintura wrote:
So definitely no mishap. You just setup 9" away without scatter.

I'd say that some units - Orks, maybe - might get less reliable methods, but then if they're doing away with the Scatter Dice I'm not sure what methods they'd use in that case.

Did anyone notice that you can charge the turn you come in from deepstrike?

Unit of stealers coming up with Trygon with fleet.....