Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hello all,

I currently have Beastclaw Raiders, but wanna go into the Fyreslayers to get me some sweet dwarves.

However, since they don't have a start collecting box (Damn you GW!) i have to come up with another way of starting them.

I am joining an Escalation league in about 2 weeks, and the first game is for 500 pts. So how would you recommend building a fyreslayer list to around 500 pts?

Thanks in advance.

seerex wrote:
Hello all,

I currently have Beastclaw Raiders, but wanna go into the Fyreslayers to get me some sweet dwarves.

However, since they don't have a start collecting box (Damn you GW!) i have to come up with another way of starting them.

I am joining an Escalation league in about 2 weeks, and the first game is for 500 pts. So how would you recommend building a fyreslayer list to around 500 pts?

Thanks in advance.

I don't have my GHB on me right now, but I would assume that you're requiring 2+ Battlelines and at least one Hero? That will likely eat up most of your points, so I'd imagine you don't have that many build options. How many different Battleline units do they actually have?

They have one battleline unit, with an additional two depending on your choice of general (so you'll only ever have a choice of two different units in one army as battleline).

well the Vulkite Berzerkers, Aeric Hearthguard and the hearthguard berzerkers are all battleline, so i have lots of options.

Btw, in the generals handbook, it says something like: "min: 5, max: 30 - 80 points".

Does that mean that the minimum (5) costs 80 points? And 10 would cost 160? or?

seerex wrote:
well the Vulkite Berzerkers, Aeric Hearthguard and the hearthguard berzerkers are all battleline, so i have lots of options.

Btw, in the generals handbook, it says something like: "min: 5, max: 30 - 80 points".

Does that mean that the minimum (5) costs 80 points? And 10 would cost 160? or?

Correct, the unit is 80 points per 5 models and you can take them in increments of 5, with a max squad size of 30 models.

seerex wrote:
well the Vulkite Berzerkers, Aeric Hearthguard and the hearthguard berzerkers are all battleline, so i have lots of options.

They can't all be battleline at the same time, as Auric Hearthguard and Heathguard Berserkers are only battleline with the appropriate general (i.e., the Runemaster and the Runefather).

seerex wrote:
Btw, in the generals handbook, it says something like: "min: 5, max: 30 - 80 points".

Does that mean that the minimum (5) costs 80 points? And 10 would cost 160? or?

Yes, as explained under 'Picking Your Army' on page 106.

 Ghaz wrote:

seerex wrote:
well the Vulkite Berzerkers, Aeric Hearthguard and the hearthguard berzerkers are all battleline, so i have lots of options.

They can't all be battleline at the same time, as Auric Hearthguard and Heathguard Berserkers are only battleline with the appropriate general (i.e., the Runemaster and the Runefather).

seerex wrote:
Btw, in the generals handbook, it says something like: "min: 5, max: 30 - 80 points".

Does that mean that the minimum (5) costs 80 points? And 10 would cost 160? or?

Yes, as explained under 'Picking Your Army' on page 106.

Ooooh thanks for clearing that out! I didn't see the extra condition where you need a specific general.

Okay so i'm thinking something like:

2 x 10 Vulkitze Berzerksers
1 x Auric Runemaster

That haves me at 400 points, so i still got 100 points to spend. Any advice?

 Rezyn wrote:

seerex wrote:
well the Vulkite Berzerkers, Aeric Hearthguard and the hearthguard berzerkers are all battleline, so i have lots of options.

Btw, in the generals handbook, it says something like: "min: 5, max: 30 - 80 points".

Does that mean that the minimum (5) costs 80 points? And 10 would cost 160? or?

Correct, the unit is 80 points per 5 models and you can take them in increments of 5, with a max squad size of 30 models.

Yeah, lots of people get this wrong. It goes like this...

1-5 models in the unit = 80 points
6-10 models in the unit = 160 points
11-15 models in the unit = 240 points
16-20 models in the unit = 320 points
21-25 models in the unit = 400 points
26-30 models in the unit = 480 points

You don't have to build in increments of 5... but if you don't, you're wasting points because you're paying for models you aren't including in your army.

Back to the original question... unless you want to commit to a themed army, it's usually safest to take two of the unit that is always a Battleline. It gives you more options in the future and allows you to add in other Order units if you want.

I would go for the Auric Runefather on Magmadroth (320) and then 2 units of 5 Vulkite Beserkers for your battleline (80 x 2).

Gets you to 480 with two boxes, plus you'll have 2 more heroes to make when you expand.

Dont do it man hold off, give it a couple months til a start collecting box comes out. Could save yourself hundreds.

OgreChubbs wrote:
Dont do it man hold off, give it a couple months til a start collecting box comes out. Could save yourself hundreds.

Garh i know, but there is no guarantee when or if that is coming out. Besides, the Escalation league starts now xD

Alright, well first off avoid vulkite zerkers like the plague unless you are trying to play nice; they just aren't worth 16(!) points per model. Secondly, at 500 points a Runemaster will be good since his ability to make one enemy unit carry ur-gold is normally undermined by your opponent getting to pick but at 500 points there's not exactly a lot of options. Plus, a Runemaster nets you Hearthguard as battleline, who are pretty sweet and worth their points. It will also let you build up to a forge brethren battalion, and leaves room for the Battlesmith that you are going to include at some point anyway.

@Seerex first, congrats on joining the esteemed Lodges We're happy to have you.
For an escalation I'd suggest the two units of vulkites w/double weapon to re-roll misses (not just 1s) in close combat and more gives you a better "ward" save. For a hero the mighty Grimwrath berzerker is killer if you don't need a runemaster or pappy to unlock hearthguard battleline units. Also, the runsemiter on foot can tunnel up your units or heroes 9" away from an enemy, which can be handy if you play vs a gunline, super fast, or otherwise terrible match-up. It also removes the smiter and said unit as targets from shooting or arcane bolts until you are ready to emerge on any of your movemen phases. Vulkites get a horn blower allowing you to reroll a charge die so better chance of getting a 9+ to charge same round.

Good luck! The Fyreslayers group on Facebook might be worth a look for tips and inspiration.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Alright, well first off avoid vulkite zerkers like the plague unless you are trying to play nice; they just aren't worth 16(!) points per model.

I used to think like that - however give them a whirl at 20 or 30 models in the unit. They start coming alive at that level, absorbing damage and kicking it out (and throwing their shields on the charge when you have that many models is just plain rude!).

The biggest bane with Fyreslayers, for me, is the amount of 4+ to hit in their force and, when it comes to 3+ to hits, the few attacks (looking at you, Hearthguard Berzerkers). They need some practice to get used to everything for best effect, but Fyreslayers are solid enough once you have all their synergies in your head.

I have to disagree with ninth musketeer in this one: zerkers CAN be great. Dude, just look at the GW's warlord's stream. The zerker battleline was thrown a whole army on their faces and still "only" lost 6 models (which is quite a feat considering there was a bloodthirster amongst those 6 units!)

Yup, Vulkites FTW. Especially in larger units. And you can take heaps of double weapons and a solid large battleline shield formation if so inclined. Although I don't favor shields I can't deny the shields look cooler

Take the battleline units so you can learn what they can do. Dont take a hero on monster at 500pts. That is not considered polite. And you are not going to win much throwing all your points in one unit.

Thanks for all the wonderful replies!

I think i have decided to start with 2 x battle line zerkers and the runesmith. Then i'll see what to do with the last points

I actually think i wanna take them with shields. Or maybe 1 unit with shields and 1 with dual-axes. I really like the looks of the shields. looks so awesome!

Btw, as a little side-note, can anyone shed any light on how they play in general? Also, i've was really torn between the Fyreslayers and the Ironjawz, so can anyone maybe also tell some key differences here?

Thanks again for the great response!

Currwntly price is the biggest issue. Fyre slayers much like Ironjaws are horde based armies. But the start collecting box is OUTSTANDING for Ironjaws, where as the one for fyre slayers is nonexistent. ..

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Currwntly price is the biggest issue. Fyre slayers much like Ironjaws are horde based armies. But the start collecting box is OUTSTANDING for Ironjaws, where as the one for fyre slayers is nonexistent. ..

Yea, i can see the fyreslayers are pretty expensive to get started with. However, it is an Escalation league increasing by around 250 pts. per month, so i think i can afford it over that longer term. The initial 500 pts. is gonna hurt, but yeah.

Just not sure which one i would enjoy playing the most kinda wanna see what the new Dwarf releases are gonna be.

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Currwntly price is the biggest issue. Fyre slayers much like Ironjaws are horde based armies. But the start collecting box is OUTSTANDING for Ironjaws, where as the one for fyre slayers is nonexistent. ..

Actually playing Ironjaws is fairly "cheap" as they are rather elite (heck, my army at 2000pts doesn't even have 50 models and I only have 30 a 1000... ardboyz cost 18ppm and it goes upwards from there) and we've got a start collecting: for less than the gruntas, you get the aforementioned gruntas AND a block of ardboyz (which you WILL use for matched play)... oh and a warchanter but who cares about them, tbh.

seerex wrote:
Thanks for all the wonderful replies!

I think i have decided to start with 2 x battle line zerkers and the runesmith. Then i'll see what to do with the last points

I actually think i wanna take them with shields. Or maybe 1 unit with shields and 1 with dual-axes. I really like the looks of the shields. looks so awesome!

Btw, as a little side-note, can anyone shed any light on how they play in general? Also, i've was really torn between the Fyreslayers and the Ironjawz, so can anyone maybe also tell some key differences here?

Thanks again for the great response!

I've played solo-Fyreslayers since release so I hope I can help. I had them at the spring Fantasia Fanatic in Umea, in the off-chance you visited. Anyway, they're all about synergy and are more flexible that you might think, given so few unit choices. Are you using a runemaster (volcano call) or a runesmiter (tunnel and re-roll to-wounds)? Ironjaws move very fast and hit quite hard. We have movement 4 so the tunnel option is among our biggest tricks to stay off the board as a target in a bad match-up and to "teleport" anywhere more than 9" away from an enemy model--for charges, objective contest or control, to be in attack range or, psych outs, or for scenarion purposes.

I'd still suggest having a look at the Fyreslayers group on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/1576982465946239/ for more tips and tactics. Basically, our troops are tough with the "ward save." Vulkites get better with more and the hearthguard go from 6 to a 4+ w/hero in range. Aurics shoot nice but need hero in range of target for the bonus, but they are the squishy unit. So we can hit hard and take a punch. We suffer a bit from Matched Play since we have 9 hero choices but in a 2000 pt game we can only take 6. So just need some finesse, is all.

All of our units have nerf axes (8" throwing axes) but in heavy volume they really can sting. You can snipe characters or war machines in range or just help soften/finish up close combat opponents.

Our heroes are fluffy and squishy, except for the Grimwrath. That bad boy has a ward which gets better per enemy unit within 3" and his ability to potentially do 36 wounds in one turn (attack, attack again & death blow) can be devastating, especially in small games. Otherwise our heroes are vulnerable so you may wish to keep them safe but in range for synergies with troops. Some don't have command abilities and volcano's call works as a nice deterrent as opponents get nervous about risking models crossing the magma. Try that out

We only have a few options for mortal wounds output so be aware and use if possible. Hearthguard w/flaming poleaxe is excellent! Magambombs (Magmadroths) puke and bleed mortal wounds and you can maximize damage on your enemy by bleeding on them in every phase (thus Magmabomb), dig into a kill pocket and sacrifice yourself to kill many . Also vulkites w/shields have the option but it's less probable than the other two. Our vulkites with double weapons get two attacks re-rolling misses (not just 1s) and that's rather heavy in larger units.

We don't have magic or anti-magic or speed above ground but we can hit hard & in great numbers. We're survivable. Use inspiring presence on large units of infantry and if you can get the command ability in matched play to use inspiring presence twice, all the better. Compared to other factions we look weak on paper but can be surprisingly brutal...plus we have killer hair which protects us Try out some options but the escalation league is a great opportunity to grow and learn so I wish you well and many victories. Let us know how the Lodge does for you.

 VeteranNoob wrote:

seerex wrote:
Thanks for all the wonderful replies!

I think i have decided to start with 2 x battle line zerkers and the runesmith. Then i'll see what to do with the last points

I actually think i wanna take them with shields. Or maybe 1 unit with shields and 1 with dual-axes. I really like the looks of the shields. looks so awesome!

Btw, as a little side-note, can anyone shed any light on how they play in general? Also, i've was really torn between the Fyreslayers and the Ironjawz, so can anyone maybe also tell some key differences here?

Thanks again for the great response!

I've played solo-Fyreslayers since release so I hope I can help. I had them at the spring Fantasia Fanatic in Umea, in the off-chance you visited. Anyway, they're all about synergy and are more flexible that you might think, given so few unit choices. Are you using a runemaster (volcano call) or a runesmiter (tunnel and re-roll to-wounds)? Ironjaws move very fast and hit quite hard. We have movement 4 so the tunnel option is among our biggest tricks to stay off the board as a target in a bad match-up and to "teleport" anywhere more than 9" away from an enemy model--for charges, objective contest or control, to be in attack range or, psych outs, or for scenarion purposes.

I'd still suggest having a look at the Fyreslayers group on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/1576982465946239/ for more tips and tactics. Basically, our troops are tough with the "ward save." Vulkites get better with more and the hearthguard go from 6 to a 4+ w/hero in range. Aurics shoot nice but need hero in range of target for the bonus, but they are the squishy unit. So we can hit hard and take a punch. We suffer a bit from Matched Play since we have 9 hero choices but in a 2000 pt game we can only take 6. So just need some finesse, is all.

All of our units have nerf axes (8" throwing axes) but in heavy volume they really can sting. You can snipe characters or war machines in range or just help soften/finish up close combat opponents.

Our heroes are fluffy and squishy, except for the Grimwrath. That bad boy has a ward which gets better per enemy unit within 3" and his ability to potentially do 36 wounds in one turn (attack, attack again & death blow) can be devastating, especially in small games. Otherwise our heroes are vulnerable so you may wish to keep them safe but in range for synergies with troops. Some don't have command abilities and volcano's call works as a nice deterrent as opponents get nervous about risking models crossing the magma. Try that out

We only have a few options for mortal wounds output so be aware and use if possible. Hearthguard w/flaming poleaxe is excellent! Magambombs (Magmadroths) puke and bleed mortal wounds and you can maximize damage on your enemy by bleeding on them in every phase (thus Magmabomb), dig into a kill pocket and sacrifice yourself to kill many . Also vulkites w/shields have the option but it's less probable than the other two. Our vulkites with double weapons get two attacks re-rolling misses (not just 1s) and that's rather heavy in larger units.

We don't have magic or anti-magic or speed above ground but we can hit hard & in great numbers. We're survivable. Use inspiring presence on large units of infantry and if you can get the command ability in matched play to use inspiring presence twice, all the better. Compared to other factions we look weak on paper but can be surprisingly brutal...plus we have killer hair which protects us Try out some options but the escalation league is a great opportunity to grow and learn so I wish you well and many victories. Let us know how the Lodge does for you.

Thanks a lot mate! I just got into the FB group, really excited about that.

I just picked up my first set of Vulkite Berserkers, so here we go! now i am on the way! Now i just need to settle on a color scheme, and wether or not to assemble them with shields. I like the look of the shields the most, but i think the dual wield axes are better in-game. But can the shields be viable?

seerex wrote:

 VeteranNoob wrote:

seerex wrote:
Thanks for all the wonderful replies!

I think i have decided to start with 2 x battle line zerkers and the runesmith. Then i'll see what to do with the last points

I actually think i wanna take them with shields. Or maybe 1 unit with shields and 1 with dual-axes. I really like the looks of the shields. looks so awesome!

Btw, as a little side-note, can anyone shed any light on how they play in general? Also, i've was really torn between the Fyreslayers and the Ironjawz, so can anyone maybe also tell some key differences here?

Thanks again for the great response!

I've played solo-Fyreslayers since release so I hope I can help. I had them at the spring Fantasia Fanatic in Umea, in the off-chance you visited. Anyway, they're all about synergy and are more flexible that you might think, given so few unit choices. Are you using a runemaster (volcano call) or a runesmiter (tunnel and re-roll to-wounds)? Ironjaws move very fast and hit quite hard. We have movement 4 so the tunnel option is among our biggest tricks to stay off the board as a target in a bad match-up and to "teleport" anywhere more than 9" away from an enemy model--for charges, objective contest or control, to be in attack range or, psych outs, or for scenarion purposes.

I'd still suggest having a look at the Fyreslayers group on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/1576982465946239/ for more tips and tactics. Basically, our troops are tough with the "ward save." Vulkites get better with more and the hearthguard go from 6 to a 4+ w/hero in range. Aurics shoot nice but need hero in range of target for the bonus, but they are the squishy unit. So we can hit hard and take a punch. We suffer a bit from Matched Play since we have 9 hero choices but in a 2000 pt game we can only take 6. So just need some finesse, is all.

All of our units have nerf axes (8" throwing axes) but in heavy volume they really can sting. You can snipe characters or war machines in range or just help soften/finish up close combat opponents.

Our heroes are fluffy and squishy, except for the Grimwrath. That bad boy has a ward which gets better per enemy unit within 3" and his ability to potentially do 36 wounds in one turn (attack, attack again & death blow) can be devastating, especially in small games. Otherwise our heroes are vulnerable so you may wish to keep them safe but in range for synergies with troops. Some don't have command abilities and volcano's call works as a nice deterrent as opponents get nervous about risking models crossing the magma. Try that out

We only have a few options for mortal wounds output so be aware and use if possible. Hearthguard w/flaming poleaxe is excellent! Magambombs (Magmadroths) puke and bleed mortal wounds and you can maximize damage on your enemy by bleeding on them in every phase (thus Magmabomb), dig into a kill pocket and sacrifice yourself to kill many . Also vulkites w/shields have the option but it's less probable than the other two. Our vulkites with double weapons get two attacks re-rolling misses (not just 1s) and that's rather heavy in larger units.

We don't have magic or anti-magic or speed above ground but we can hit hard & in great numbers. We're survivable. Use inspiring presence on large units of infantry and if you can get the command ability in matched play to use inspiring presence twice, all the better. Compared to other factions we look weak on paper but can be surprisingly brutal...plus we have killer hair which protects us Try out some options but the escalation league is a great opportunity to grow and learn so I wish you well and many victories. Let us know how the Lodge does for you.

Thanks a lot mate! I just got into the FB group, really excited about that.

I just picked up my first set of Vulkite Berserkers, so here we go! now i am on the way! Now i just need to settle on a color scheme, and wether or not to assemble them with shields. I like the look of the shields the most, but i think the dual wield axes are better in-game. But can the shields be viable?

Glad you joined us. I'm the group founder (Kenny) so say hej
IMOonly, I've seen a lot of inclusion of shields in list making on forums and group page but I really don't think that 4+ instead of 5+ armor save is worth sacrificing re-rolls to hit. So much has rend or does straight mortal wounds. Try both, someone will surely let you proxy the other build before you commit Shields are viable but I find less effective. though do try it out. I have 10 shields and 50 double axes and in a few games used the shields which sucked in comparison, but, maybe at 20-30 they would be better.
And for hobby inspiration the variety on the Group is staggering and you can see a wide range of skin/hair/armor/basing examples from which to draw inspiration. Let us know if you need anything and please do share your tales from your Lodge (also, consider a Realm to be based and your Lodge name, for fluff, eventually. Mine is the Grymfyrd Lodge from Aqshy, color based on the original art of Grimnir fighting Vulcatrix, so they are on fire and their beards/hair are flames.

just wonder how the special battlion rule of melten walls work.

Last time one guy told me the three hearthguards can caste melten wall on same unit that make that unit +3 saves. He had 35 Vulkite berserkers which became 2+/3++ which is eventually invulnarable, Those guys just tried to jam your main troops and the hearthguard shot in 15'. I must say they really hit hard.

Comparing the profile of Hearthguard and Storm Corssbowman. Hearthguard has nice 15'/2A/3+/3+/-1/1 status (plus a nice throwing axe) and Sigmarine has poorly 12'/2A/3+/3+/0/-1. However, each Hearthguard only cost 20 points and Sigmarine cost 26! I dont know what is wrong here.

Aeonotakist wrote:
just wonder how the special battlion rule of melten walls work.

Last time one guy told me the three hearthguards can caste melten wall on same unit that make that unit +3 saves. He had 35 Vulkite berserkers which became 2+/3++ which is eventually invulnarable, Those guys just tried to jam your main troops and the hearthguard shot in 15'. I must say they really hit hard.

The wording in that battalion isn't precise, but it seems the majority of people plays it so all three units can use the ability. Like many other synergy-based army builds it becomes a priority to snipe the hero providing the bonus. But yeah, if unchecked, that ability is really good!

Aeonotakist wrote:

Comparing the profile of Hearthguard and Storm Corssbowman. Hearthguard has nice 15'/2A/3+/3+/-1/1 status (plus a nice throwing axe) and Sigmarine has poorly 12'/2A/3+/3+/0/-1. However, each Hearthguard only cost 20 points and Sigmarine cost 26! I dont know what is wrong here.

The Judicators do have a 4+ save and 2 wounds each, though. But the short answer is that crossbow-armed Judicators are not worth their points. Unfortunately, the GHB counts all weapon options as equal when it comes to points costs.

Attilla wrote:

Aeonotakist wrote:
just wonder how the special battlion rule of melten walls work.

Last time one guy told me the three hearthguards can caste melten wall on same unit that make that unit +3 saves. He had 35 Vulkite berserkers which became 2+/3++ which is eventually invulnarable, Those guys just tried to jam your main troops and the hearthguard shot in 15'. I must say they really hit hard.

The wording in that battalion isn't precise, but it seems the majority of people plays it so all three units can use the ability. Like many other synergy-based army builds it becomes a priority to snipe the hero providing the bonus. But yeah, if unchecked, that ability is really good!

Aeonotakist wrote:

Comparing the profile of Hearthguard and Storm Corssbowman. Hearthguard has nice 15'/2A/3+/3+/-1/1 status (plus a nice throwing axe) and Sigmarine has poorly 12'/2A/3+/3+/0/-1. However, each Hearthguard only cost 20 points and Sigmarine cost 26! I dont know what is wrong here.

The Judicators do have a 4+ save and 2 wounds each, though. But the short answer is that crossbow-armed Judicators are not worth their points. Unfortunately, the GHB counts all weapon options as equal when it comes to points costs.

Actually it is not easy to kill all three units of Hearthguard when the Vulkite Berserkers are so fearless against any form of damage. They just march as a group which only ranged weapon can really damage Hearthguard without dealing with the berserkers. However a lot of army lists cannot even win Hearthguard in ranged battle like Khorne and Ironjaws etc. They are doomed to lose seeing this battlion immediately.
Also you need to consider there is a Iconbearer who can reroll all failed save for everyone, which make him also a big priority.

Well if the Forge Brethren get to use their ability three times then Fyreslayer are elevated from 'meh' to 'massively OP' in my book. I find it hard to imagine that interpretation would fly in a tourney though. Combining it with Seraphon that ignore rend seems particularly overpowered.

Actually it is not easy to kill all three units of Hearthguard when the Vulkite Berserkers are so fearless against any form of damage. They just march as a group which only ranged weapon can really damage Hearthguard without dealing with the berserkers.

I meant to kill the Runesmiter, thus disabling the possibility to be within 10" of him. But that is also hard without good shooting, as is so often the case with hero-synergy lists.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Well if the Forge Brethren get to use their ability three times then Fyreslayer are elevated from 'meh' to 'massively OP' in my book. I find it hard to imagine that interpretation would fly in a tourney though. Combining it with Seraphon that ignore rend seems particularly overpowered.

I hope GW would clarify/errata it to mean only one unit for sure.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Well if the Forge Brethren get to use their ability three times then Fyreslayer are elevated from 'meh' to 'massively OP' in my book. I find it hard to imagine that interpretation would fly in a tourney though. Combining it with Seraphon that ignore rend seems particularly overpowered.

I would consider it still 'OK'. Now all the competitive list is with sniper ability or tons of ranged damage. Runesmiter will not stand long anyway facing treeman hunters, empire cannon or Presocutors with Jevelin.

Also the Bulwark of melton stone will stop you from charging. Then Fyreslayer is just a group of extremely slow old dude with very poor ability to capture objectives.