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Hey guy and gals

I am currently starting up an Flesh Teaers army using Blood Angels rules (of course) and a mate of mine plays Dark Angles Raven wing... He uses a lot of Plasma and those bikes that always seems dismantle some other mutual friends of ours.
So what I want to know is, how do you Blood Angels players counter something like this? I don't wanna smash him I just want to level the playing field.
he will typically field (as I said) Raven Wing type armies, relying and either speed or a bunch of marines with heavy plasma of various flavours.

Sanguinary Guard, Death Company and Assault Marines. Sang. Guard carry high AP muder, DC have special rule murder, and assault marines have numbers. Tie up his bikes, remember that the TL-Bolters cost him points and that he isn't using them in combat. Nor can he use Plasma in combat (which he also spent points on). Use cover and mobility or deep strike if you can to get a charge as soon as possible.

I don't often face Raven Wing, but if my Blood Angels can handle Death Guard Bikers they can probably handle Dark Angels.

I know the recently revised BA codex got a formation or two that allows you to charge after deep striking. Drop,podding in and getting the jump on his biker guys like that might help.

Drop podding frag cannon Furiosos and flamer tacticals to counter those jink saves?

Sanguinary Guard, Death Company and Assault Marines. Sang. Guard carry high AP muder, DC have special rule murder, and assault marines have numbers. Tie up his bikes, remember that the TL-Bolters cost him points and that he isn't using them in combat. Nor can he use Plasma in combat (which he also spent points on). Use cover and mobility or deep strike if you can to get a charge as soon as possible.

I don't often face Raven Wing, but if my Blood Angels can handle Death Guard Bikers they can probably handle Dark Angels.

Ravenwing are an incredibly bad match up for jump based BA. They're faster so can dictate play, have better shooting and can even do a number in CC via Black Knights whilst also being able to Hit and Run out of combat

I don't think Assault from Deep Strike with Sang Guard or Terminators works well either.
Eg For Sang Guard they'll either finish off the squad, or the Ravenwing will Hit and Run out - at which point the Sang Guard die in the Ravenwing shooting phase.

I'd love to post something that puts BA on a level playing field to Ravenwing, but unfortunately I don't think there is outside of allying in heavily.

Fragioso will mulch up a few bikes even if they spread out and will force them to stay close to shoot his back and side armor/move away or get charged.

At the same time, things like DC can be effective in melee with s5 attacks and a fist for this 1-2 extra kills after fnp (yes - those bastards also have a fnp banner - try to snipe it out if possible).

Charge from ds a-termies can be really devastating for him. Just don't go for the big units of knights and instead wreck his support and scoring units like speeders and smaller bike squads - overwatch from knights is too dangerous even for a-termies. Knights won't be able to be everywhere to score and will start to slowly fall behind on maelstorm.

Another important thing is that you have to keep knights jinking - otherwise they'll kill too much with their plazmas. And with the new faq, even t-l plazma overheats on the resulting number of ones, so they will also get a few casualties across the game.

Obsec pods and some marines will also be good vs his fully non-scoring forces but don't go overboard with marines.

All in all, a regular ba force can handle ravenwing - it's not a walk in the park though and rules are in his favor. but it's doable.

Well, RW can hardly be killed via shooting unless you play Tau or something equivalent. You need to tie them up in cc as already said above. This army is low in numbers and this could give you an edge.

You need to tie them up in cc as already said above

Good luck with that. Ravenwing are faster, have hit and run and good overwatch. They also have a pretty decent CC unit in the Command Squad.

If the player is running the Ravenwing Support Squadron, then you have a whole host of other problems

Bartali wrote:

You need to tie them up in cc as already said above

Good luck with that. Ravenwing are faster, have hit and run and good overwatch. They also have a pretty decent CC unit in the Command Squad.

If the player is running the Ravenwing Support Squadron, then you have a whole host of other problems

However, BA have a superior number of models since Assault Marines are cheaper. Outmaneuvering may only work if the RW bikers use their turbo boost. But then they cannot shoot for a round. As a BA player, I'd integrate an Imperial Knight.

If you are taking on DA for sure, I'd start with a Whirlwind squadron and a vindicator squadron.

Martel732 wrote:
If you are taking on DA for sure, I'd start with a Whirlwind squadron and a vindicator squadron.

Vindi squadron lol. 1 shot. DC cleanup the mess. You'd better go first or they'll plazma the vindi's side armor. Even with squadron rules just cause they have scout. You'd at least force them to outflank and have a turn of scoring all for yourself.

Can ba have fast vindis? That'd be hilarious. Also, enough to have just one of them fast to increase danger range from 30 to 36.

Not sure I'd use DC vs DA, though. They're really not as good as everyone thinks.

I did beat a da guy really bad with archangel sanguind wing. I had 20 vanguards with power weapon, storm shield, fnp and ws 5. They don't care about plasma and murder every bike squad they touch. Stormraven is really good vs da as well.

Martel732 wrote:
Not sure I'd use DC vs DA, though. They're really not as good as everyone thinks.

DC is expensive but a premium assault squad vs. RW. If they get the charge, they will be quite deadly.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Not sure I'd use DC vs DA, though. They're really not as good as everyone thinks.

DC is expensive but a premium assault squad vs. RW. If they get the charge, they will be quite deadly.

That's a big if. The vanguards from sanguine wing win no matter what.

To be honest a decent RW army will just laugh at Blood Angels, between the Ravens shield and good overwatch, your not likely to see CC, they are faster and a lot more resilient than almost anything angels can pump out.

I've already described some things they don't laugb at.

Martel732 wrote:
Not sure I'd use DC vs DA, though. They're really not as good as everyone thinks.

I did beat a da guy really bad with archangel sanguind wing. I had 20 vanguards with power weapon, storm shield, fnp and ws 5. They don't care about plasma and murder every bike squad they touch. Stormraven is really good vs da as well.

My problem with this formation is forced reserves with deepstrikes. If they could start on board - no problem. But deepstrikes and 800 pt offboard...don't like the sound of it. But might work in some cases i guess. Though, if you're not running servoscull inquisitor what's holding the ravenwing guy from scouting all across the table turn 1 and taking the field scoring a ton of vp.

But the ones from angel's blade are somehow good while also forcing reserves?

A couple pods with locator beacons fixes the problem greatly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Not sure I'd use DC vs DA, though. They're really not as good as everyone thinks.

I did beat a da guy really bad with archangel sanguind wing. I had 20 vanguards with power weapon, storm shield, fnp and ws 5. They don't care about plasma and murder every bike squad they touch. Stormraven is really good vs da as well.

My problem with this formation is forced reserves with deepstrikes. If they could start on board - no problem. But deepstrikes and 800 pt offboard...don't like the sound of it. But might work in some cases i guess. Though, if you're not running servoscull inquisitor what's holding the ravenwing guy from scouting all across the table turn 1 and taking the field scoring a ton of vp.

Nothing i suppose, but they need the right cards. They start losing bikes pretty quickly turn 3.

Martel732 wrote:

archangel sanguind wing

Could you please put some info on how you're usually running them and some results from games. I'm really interested in this one but as said above forced ds puts me off them. Maybe i'll try it out with my Blood Axe-angels. Have a Dakkaraven sitting on the shelf. It could also be a blitza-raven - whatever you like really.

It's pretty simple. You have some pods with deep strike, some scouts, and then your formation. You've got a sanguinary priest with veritas vitae for extra strategic traits, so you have a decent chance of being able to deep strike straight into ruins if need be. Or a +1 to reserves. It's basically a null deployment list.

Just so we're on the same page re Ravenwing, most players won't take just bikes.
There will normally be speeders too, and often in the Ravenwing Support Squadron with the Darkshroud - this has Stealth/Shrouded, Interceptor and can overwatch (at BS2) at any RW unit charged with 24".

As an example list at 1000pts

Ravenwing Strike Force
Lib w/ Lvl2, Bike
6x Black Knights Command Squad w/ Apothecary, 1x Grenade Launcher
3x Ravenwing w/ 2x Grav
3x Ravenwing w/ 2x Grav
3x Ravenwing w/ 2x Grav

Ravenwing Support Squadron
1x Darkshroud
3x Land Speeders w/ Heavy Bolter, Typhoon Missile Launcher

Low model count at 1000pts, and perhaps the Support Squadon isn't need at 1000 where just a Darkshroud would do (be interested to here what RW players think)

What list would you take at 1000pts vs the above ?

Best hard counter for BA vs Ravenwing is 3 stormravnes. Fly in ignore cover pattern, power of the machine spirit your twin linked plasma cannons on 3 different targets while multi melta and the str8 ap2 rockets deal with speeders/darkshroud. Next turn go in hover to maintain pattern and repeat.

Take the air superiority detachment so you get objective secured in hover mode.

Well, at the 1000 pt level, I'd opt for a BA list with numbers. Lots of Assault Marines. Sorry I don't have the codex with me.

Baal pattern predators. s6 ap3 ignores cover will ruin any bikers day and the front av 13 will keep plasma from doing anything of any importance while you get into position. Also take the heavy bolter sponsons not the flamers. the trick to killing bikers is to just keep firing at them until they fail saves. heavy bolters have enough range to be an annoyance from turn 1.

If you take 3 flyers there is a pattern that gives them ignore cover.

Martel732 wrote:
It's pretty simple. You have some pods with deep strike, some scouts, and then your formation. You've got a sanguinary priest with veritas vitae for extra strategic traits, so you have a decent chance of being able to deep strike straight into ruins if need be. Or a +1 to reserves. It's basically a null deployment list.

How do you get the priest with the VVs? Does he just hide on the table and join after they land? I've been building this formation for a while and was pretty bummed by the draft faq preventing HQs from joining formations or whatever. I'm new so i'm just trying to figure stuff out...

CountryMac wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's pretty simple. You have some pods with deep strike, some scouts, and then your formation. You've got a sanguinary priest with veritas vitae for extra strategic traits, so you have a decent chance of being able to deep strike straight into ruins if need be. Or a +1 to reserves. It's basically a null deployment list.

How do you get the priest with the VVs? Does he just hide on the table and join after they land? I've been building this formation for a while and was pretty bummed by the draft faq preventing HQs from joining formations or whatever. I'm new so i'm just trying to figure stuff out...

The draft FAQ doesn't stop ICs from joining units in formations, it stops ICs from gaining the benefits of that formation

Ignore cover stuff, thats how you beat ravenwing

CountryMac wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's pretty simple. You have some pods with deep strike, some scouts, and then your formation. You've got a sanguinary priest with veritas vitae for extra strategic traits, so you have a decent chance of being able to deep strike straight into ruins if need be. Or a +1 to reserves. It's basically a null deployment list.

How do you get the priest with the VVs? Does he just hide on the table and join after they land? I've been building this formation for a while and was pretty bummed by the draft faq preventing HQs from joining formations or whatever. I'm new so i'm just trying to figure stuff out...

They have to roll for reserve and deepstrike separately, but if they come in, they can use the same teleport homer and then join the squad.

Martel732 wrote:
Not sure I'd use DC vs DA, though. They're really not as good as everyone thinks.

I did beat a da guy really bad with archangel sanguind wing. I had 20 vanguards with power weapon, storm shield, fnp and ws 5. They don't care about plasma and murder every bike squad they touch. Stormraven is really good vs da as well.

Martel knows his gak when it comes to BA. Again I'm inclined to agree with him. I would add some dreadnoughts though. A libby, and a fragiosos or 2 (armored aincents ). They are AV 13 on 2 facings and will absolutely destroy ravenwing on the charge or with the frag cannons. Same with the VVs, with relic blades and LCs.

EDIT: Forgot to mention locator beacons. If you're gonna be podding template drrads, don't leave home without em.