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I've been looking to start up another army. I'm deciding between 3 and I'm only going to buy the codex for the army I choose, hence I am completely ignorant here

One of the armies I'm looking at is Chaos. My modelling has gotten a lot better and I know they're great for conversions. I have few questions I'm hoping you guys can help me with. I've never played Chaos before...so sorry in advance if they're dumb. Firstly, are CSM and Daemons totally different armies now? Can they be combined without being an allied force?

How restrictive are the individual gods? If my army is pledged to Nurgle, would that mean I can't use any Khorne or Tzeench units? It seems like almost everyone goes Chaos undivided, is that why?

Are Obliterators still around? I love the way they look.

Thanks for any answers, I really appreciate the help.

CSM and Chaos Daemons are two different armies that would require allies to work together. However, there is Khorne Daemonkin, which is Khorne Daemons and Khorne doted CSM in one codex.

The rules no longer care about devotion. You can use any mix of units devoted to any god you see fit. The only time you would have to have everything devoted to a single god is Khorne Daemonkin.

Yes Oblits are still around. Can't comment on usefulness though.

CSM and Daemons are separate armies, yes. You can use them together without the Allies rules if you use the summoning rules, but that's risky and you still need both Codexes. Given that they're Battle-Brothers and that Daemons' compulsory choices are so cheap it's probably easier to run an Allied detachment if you want to use both anyway.

The base armies don't restrict your choices by god in any way, you can mix and match units freely (except that you won't be able to mix Independent Characters as easily as you might elsewhere). There are detachments and formations that do restrict your choices but they're the exception rather than the norm. I'm not sure why you'd think most people go Undivided; I see a lot of Nurgle.

There's also the Khorne Daemonkin Codex that mixes Daemon and Marine units, if you'd like to have both without needing allies or multiple Codexes and you don't mind being stuck with Khorne units only you could do that.

Obliterators are still kicking and still cool. Unfortunately they're not in Khorne Daemonkin.

Thank you both. Outstanding answers that really help me. I'm more than likely totally wrong on the undivided thing. I took a hiatus of several years, I just got back into it. I'm still building and painting so haven't played in ages..I'm certain I mix up rumours and memories.

I think will do some form of Chaos. I've always loved the look of Eldar, but I've heard they're very OP. I don't wanna be the guy no one wants to play. Genestealers are awesome conceptually...they just seem like a boring boring army to paint, same problem with Necrons. I'm told Orks were so broken they're unplayable. I don't know enough about Dark Eldar, but instictually I like Eldar and Chaos better. Unless I'm misinformed (very possible), Chaos of some type seems like the best option.

Both daemons and eldar are top tier codexes, but I like daemons look and modeling freedom a lot better, a lot of the hqs and aspect warriors are finecast with zero modeling options, whereas daemons come with tons of extra bits just to make it look unique and the way you want.

I like daemons look and modeling freedom a lot better, a lot of the hqs and aspect warriors are finecast with zero modeling options, whereas daemons come with tons of extra bits just to make it look unique and the way you want.

That truly is the ultimate issue. That level of modelling freedom must be awesome! Orks and cults offer a lot of neat conversion potential, but nothing seems to touch Chaos on that front.

The thing about demons is that yes, they are a top tier codex, but in the wrong hands they are a bottom tier codex. Eldar and Necrons have books where just about every unit is pretty dang awesome and will do work.

Daemons are somewhat of a finess army. You need to know what you are doing, but if you do, you will do very well. They can bring a lot of power, and a lot of dirty tricks. For further down the hobby line, Chaos also has a large amount of model support from Forge World, which is pretty awesome.

Daemons are somewhat of a finess army. You need to know what you are doing,

That's great news!! That's exactly what I want in an army. A broken army that always loses is awful, an army that always wins is almost as bad. If I win or lose mostly based on my knowledge and ability, I'll be very happy. Finesse is what, I think, makes the game worth playing. Who wants an army that does the same thing all the time? Win or lose, that's plain boring.

Rakar wrote: I'm told Orks were so broken they're unplayable.

Rakar wrote:A broken army that always loses is awful...

Then I would suggest staying away from CSM then. While their new book has propelled them to the lofty heights of "slightly less bad than Orks" (instead of "roughly as bad as Orks" like they were previously), that's not a great achievement, nor are they really able to compete with any of the Codecies that they couldn't compete with before.

If you want a chaos army that isn't terrible, then daemons (or Daemonkin, but the only things worth taking out of there are generally daemon units anyway) are your only real option.

Agreeing with Drasius. Pure CSM right now are awful. Using them as allies for certain units/formations is best case scenario.

If you're looking at daemons, be sure to check their updates in War Zone Fenris. This is where the Daemonic Incursion detachment is.

Then I would suggest staying away from CSM then. While their new book has propelled them to the lofty heights of "slightly less bad than Orks" (instead of "roughly as bad as Orks" like they were previously), that's not a great achievement, nor are they really able to compete with any of the Codecies that they couldn't compete with before.

A) As nerdy as this is, its really nice to see someone else use 'codices' instead of 'codexes' thanks!
B) I had heard they were rough to play. I was told Orks are the worst (which sucks because they look so fun to paint and model), followed closely by Tyranids, followed by CSM; is that accurate?
C) Even Plague Marines? Now I'm guessing they're just a great unit in an awful army? Like you guys said I guess I could ally them in.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

If you're looking at daemons, be sure to check their updates in War Zone Fenris. This is where the Daemonic Incursion detachment is.

Thanks, I absolutely need that. Jumping back in is confusing as hell when it comes to literature. I have Space Wolves and Dark Angels, so I bought each of their respective codices and the rulebook. Now I have no clue where to go. I imagine I'll need Fenris for both Space Wolves and my proposed Chaos army. Are the Wulfen in that? I got the digital copy for Space Wolves, I know some updates get rolled in, but not sure. Then I'll need some book to cover super-heavies...Do I need the Space Marines codex? ...I'm wandering to far down the rabbit hole, I should probably start a fresh thread on this.

40K right now has a gap between the 4-5 "top tier" armies and the rest. CSM belong to the rest, but they are still playable. They have quite a lot of formations to choose from. Their big problem is that they have a lot of units that are very overcosted out of certain formations. Mutilators, Thousand Sons, Warp Talons and Possessed to name the most obvious ones.
Additionally (and that's where your point about "unmarked" may com from) the Chaos gods' psychic lores are pretty bad (in the CSM codex, the post-Fenris-Daemon powers are cool) and if you mark a sorcerer you have to at least take one power from them. That's why many stick to unmarked sorcerers.
Strenghts of CSM are psychic powers/formations, characters and possibly everything with the mark of Nurgle .

Yes, Wulfen are in the Warzone Fenris book.
The CSM rules are unfortunately quite clustered. There is the main codex, two supplements with some formations, additional relics and minor special rules in them (Black Legion and Crimson slaughter) and then there's the newest book Traitor's Hate with even more (and arguably better) formations. You don't actually need to buy all of these books if it's just for the rules, as they are minor tweaks and you can find the formations and relics all over the internet.

Don't buy into Tzeentch yet. They are going to get new kits, first wave in the next 2 months, Daemons first (Horrors are getting not only two but three types), then plastic Thousand Sons Rubrics and Daemon Primarch Magnus and early next year a plastic Lord of Change. To spice things up, there is even going to be a new boardgame focussing on Prospero in the next weeks featuring plastic 30k Thousand Sons including a plastic Ahriman. I play Chaos as well and would I start anew jump right into these releases. They are pretty much confirmed, the rumor source is excellent. It would not be surprising if there is a Start Collecting Tzeentch Daemons set this winter as well. If you want to start painting, buy two Heldrakes, 1-2 boxes of Oblits and a Warpsmith for a start. The recently released Traitors Hate supplement, Cyclopia Cabal from the 2016 Black Legion supplement and asumeably the upcoming Warzone: Fenris II campaign book too will provide good rules for CSM sorcery and daemon engine combinations. Not of Eldar uberpower - but enough to play enjoyable games with CSM. Chaos Daemons recently got an update with Warzone Fenris I and have some good builds, too. With the things coming for Tzeentch, and the already good efficiency of psychic-heavy Chaos armies, I would recommend going this new route.

Sgt. Cortez - Thanks for the advice, I think you're correct in regard to my undivided fiasco. I created a different thread on what I'd need (codices, supplements, etc.) Man! Chaos is kinda a mess that way. I was told Chaos absolutely dominates the psychic phase period. Is that true?

Warhams-77 - Thank you too! I was inspired to look at Chaos because I came across an amazing Mortarion model! It's a kick-ass centerpiece for an army. I love the look of oblits so I'm building those too. I will pick up Typhus...he has a formation right? So that's where my Nurgle leanings come from...however, I really like thousand son and the Tzeench stuff too! I like the idea of an army with a one-two punch of Nurgle for physical dominance and tzeentch for psychic dominance and a touch of finesse. Your advice saved my a bunch of cash ..so thank again

Yeah gonna have to agree about CSM.. If you plan to go Daemons, go pure Daemons. Leave the CSM at home. They are currently nothing but a massive money sink, as nice as the models are, I had over 35k points worth, slowly but surely decided it best to sell them off..

Daemons will win you games and still be sporadic enough to be entertaining and joyful.

Maybe in a few more decades when CSM get a meaningful codex that doesn't involve 5-6 Supplements, comes in 1 full, complete codex, we might be ok.

Holy crap, you had 35k of CSM!? That had to look insanely awesome on a table!! I don't think I ever even seen a force that massive!!! As it stands now, I have 2 Chaos models period; so I could easily shift to demons. Maybe I'll just ally in a squad or two of CSM for flavour.

Firstly I dont think CSM are as bad as everyone makes them out to be. Not in my experience anyhow. Secondly, yes, currently they are not a top tier army and never will be. GW has had 10 years + tp make them anything other than average and has failed to do so. Even the most recent attempts have fallen far short of making them tourney worthy. But they are playable. And you can even win some games with the proper build and good dice rolls. Id probably stay away from games with power lists with CSM but they can and do win in casual set ups. The modeling options are heavily based on kit bashing and scrap modeling. Be prepared to work hard to get WYSIWYG. Terminators are a poster boy for this issue. Regardless, with the release of traitors hate has shown GW there is still hefty interest in CSM (alot of units have sold out in the web store) so id expect some updates in the next few years.

TLDR. Chaos is not a tourney army. It never will be. It cant be. Its in game role is to get mulched by imperial players so will always be a bit behind them in rules. Until we get a better update dont play CSM if tournies or winning all the time is a factor for you.
BUT, if you are like me and love the fluff and the army then that doesnt matter. I sold off my Necrons to jump into CSM with traitors hate. Not regretting it a single bit. Also, we get to ally in demons or Knights now which can fill some of the power gaps the main codex has.

Thank you for the input, that makes a lot of sense. Its very much the modelling and fluff (which opens up cool narrative battles) that started to draw me to them. I'm not really interested in tournaments atm...my group of Wraithknights vs your group of wraithknights doesn't appeal to me anywhere near as much as an imperial army cleansing heretics or orks invading an eldar world. I think CSM really lend themselves to that. Adding in daemons and renegade knights, beefs up the army, but fits in wonderfully with about any Chaos narrative.

 Rakar wrote:
I've been looking to start up another army. I'm deciding between 3 and I'm only going to buy the codex for the army I choose, hence I am completely ignorant here

One of the armies I'm looking at is Chaos. My modelling has gotten a lot better and I know they're great for conversions. I have few questions I'm hoping you guys can help me with. I've never played Chaos before...so sorry in advance if they're dumb. Firstly, are CSM and Daemons totally different armies now? Can they be combined without being an allied force?

How restrictive are the individual gods? If my army is pledged to Nurgle, would that mean I can't use any Khorne or Tzeench units? It seems like almost everyone goes Chaos undivided, is that why?

Are Obliterators still around? I love the way they look.

Thanks for any answers, I really appreciate the help.

Appallingly, no.

I'm an oldie when I was growing up the chaos gods largely hated one another. Khorne and Slaanesh were bitter enemies and Nurgle and Tzeentch despised one another. These combinations could not be used. Plus since Khorne hates all psykers Nurgle or Tzeentch and Khorne was not feasible either. The only two who could tolerate one another enough to cooperate were Nurgle and Slaanesh. For me changing this has made a chaos a much more homogenous and simplistic force, allowing them to cut back on the god specific units and rules and enforcing 'undivided'.

My own chaos army has only Slaanesh and Nurgle units in it, because like I say I'm old fashioned.

Fluff-wise, I think the inter-chaos-god politics are pretty critical. If Nurgle hadn't attacked Slaanesh, there might no be any Eldar left. I think of it kinda like the Orks...if anyone could unite them all the galaxy would be in deep trouble. It's the kind of thing I wouldn't expect to see unless they were kicking off an "End-Times" scenario.

That being said...I don't get why a Nurgle Daemon army needs to ally in Plaugue-marines. Marines pledged to a different god....sure, but not nurgle's marines. I think the God distinction would be a better divider than CSM or Daemon.

I love the demon army. I've been playing it since its inception as a standalone book. Lots of people play summon spam, I play with a 'Thirster, Kairos, Screamer-Star, fiends, and a lot of stuff to cross the field quickly. Kairos and other princes flying high can do serious damage. I DO summon, no reason not to, but it's not the lynchpin of a daemon army. Daemons are mostly a CC army at their core in a non-melee edition. However, they have tools to cross the field quickly. And being in your opponent's deployment zone turn 1, with all the big nasties flying high...most people do not want that. Have fun with big gribblies, minor acts of summoning, and synergy. Use the chaos table, don't fight it; that's where Kairos comes in; he gives you the best warlord trait and a chance to re-roll that Grimoire roll (if you flub it). Use the grimoire on screamers and go hog-wild. Anything they hit will die. And they won't. A well run screamer star, supported by high flying daemon princes (go Khorne for insta-death axes or Tzeentch for the big club) and your opponent won't have safety in the sky or on the ground. Enjoy.

A flufy, awesome looking Daemon army is my dream, but I'm already playing two horde armies and don't even have space for the third one. However Tzeentchian Daemons, led by Magnus... Mmmmm...

On the other hand CSM are cool too, but their rules are lacking ATM. Traitor's Hate didn't really solved anything, sadly, but here's hoping that they will fix them in the future.