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Nagash has this special ability which allows double models summoned when he uses his summoning spells.
Question is: do you have to set aside extra points to make use of this or do you get the other points/models for free?
Just wanna know if he's worth the points or not.

Also, Engine for the Gods - when you roll for the engine and get the summoning option, nothing happens I guess if you have not set aside stuff right?

So this makes spells which turns enemy models into models of your own also invalid if you have not set aside points? - It can be interpreted to be a summoning spell with a twist.


In the end, what I want to reach out for is this: are all of these semi-summoning spells and abilities useless if I don't have points set aside?

I've seen a lot of people say that you do have to set aside points for the extra models summoned by Nagash, and I believe that RAW that is correct per the GHB, but my local group decided that those extra points had to be baked in to Nagash's 900-point cost, otherwise he just isn't worth taking. We also don't require extra Reserve Points to be used when rolling high on the summoning spells worded as "cast value X. Summon Y models, if the casting roll is Z or higher, summon 2Y models". We treat it as a "spell crit" and give the extra models for free. Note that these are houserules, though, and you would need to talk to your opponent about these.

All the other examples you gave (Engine of the Gods, Coven Throne, Several Sylvaneth models, etc.) would require reserve points to be used.

Note that the rules for Reinforcement Points never once use the term 'summon' or 'summoning'., Any spell or ability that allows you to add models to your army cost points, not just summoning spells.

I thought reserve points only referred to summoning spells, not abilities.

 Ghaz wrote:
Note that the rules for Reinforcement Points never once use the term 'summon' or 'summoning'., Any spell or ability that allows you to add models to your army cost points, not just summoning spells.

This is true, as far as we know.
There are a few grey areas that have not yet been covered though so it might not be universally true.

Until we know for sure, I suggest treat ALL spells and abilities that add new units according to the GHB rules for reinforcement points.

That means, yes Nagash must have reinforcement points to summon twice the number of models (and yes, he's not worth it),
and yes, the Engine of Gods needs reinforcement points as well.

Cheers

Hm, sad tidings. But then again, this is GW's first shot at AoS, with luck these rules will be clarified and improved upon the next GhB release.

Metaphor wrote:
Hm, sad tidings. But then again, this is GW's first shot at AoS, with luck these rules will be clarified and improved upon the next GhB release.

I get the feeling the GW overreacted to how OP summoning was prior to the GHB and swung the pendulum too far the other way. According to an interview with the game designers, the plan is to rebalance the points and rerelease the GHB yearly, so we'll have to see where this goes in the future.

 EnTyme wrote:
I've seen a lot of people say that you do have to set aside points for the extra models summoned by Nagash, and I believe that RAW that is correct per the GHB, but my local group decided that those extra points had to be baked in to Nagash's 900-point cost, otherwise he just isn't worth taking.

This is where I am at too; RAW Nagash has to pay double but RAI seems likely that he doesn't. I extend this to the grey area of models being 'replaced' as well, since its not quite adding models to the army but also kind of is, though the RAW is also against me there.

I get the feeling the GW overreacted to how OP summoning was prior to the GHB and swung the pendulum too far the other way.

While I agree there is some truth to this, I think the players are also overreacting. Particularly Death players seem to have had the idea that undead are only viable with summoning, which isn't and never was true. Also, summoning is useful because reserve points are Schrodinger's models; you don't decide what they are until they are summoned. This means you can pick and choose exactly the right model/units for the context you are playing in, an example where this can be extremely useful is the 'three places of power' scenario to get extra heroes on the board (cairn wraiths are particularly good for this) whereas in another scenario you'd probably want more units since the objectives are #-of-models based. There's also the limited but not insignificant 'deep strike' capability for models that are otherwise slow.

i disagree about the intended idea of Nagash's rule.

either way, he defiinitely has to pay points for the double summon. thats why hes not worth his points. in non-matched play nagash is an unstoppable beast.

in matched play hes a big nasty fella but for 900 points you could outdo him.. i'd take two mournguls over nagash any day.

raoiley wrote:
i disagree about the intended idea of Nagash's rule.

either way, he defiinitely has to pay points for the double summon. thats why hes not worth his points. in non-matched play nagash is an unstoppable beast.

in matched play hes a big nasty fella but for 900 points you could outdo him.. i'd take two mournguls over nagash any day.

Disagree in general. Even without summoning, he's amazing. You can get him a 2+ save and he absolutely murders darn near everything in combat. His shooting and magic damage are good as well. In our last event we had one person bring him - Nagash never died and killed more than his points every game, denying multiple objectives and killing key units.

That said, the player only went 1-2 because he also brought Neferata and didn't have enough units to cover objectives. I personally think an army of Nagash + MSU could be a serious contender.

I agree. Nagash is pretty nasty. People key in on the obvious over powered use of him which was to swarm the board with many free points worth of units.

Now he cannot do that anymore people say he's worthless. However, I have seen Nagash wade through whole armies.

He's definitely RISKY at 900 points, meaning he may not always "get his points back", but thats how I think it should be.

Things that ALWAYS make their points back are in my mind broken and need to be made more expensive.

There should always be a risk/reward.

Agreed. Nagash is very nasty, even without the ability to effectively summon whole new armies to the table. I think his biggest downside in Matched Play is that you'll have so many points tied up in one model. Claiming and subsequently holding objectives can be difficult. An opponent who effectively plays the scenario while trying to mitigate damage from Nagash (or focusing fire to bring him down) has a good chance of winning.

A 2+ save is nice, but rending/mortal wounds/multiple damage wounds/etc can bring him down just like any other high wound/good save Behemoth.

What happens with Dreaded Thirteenth spell which turns enemy models into Verminus?

Is the spell totally negated i your don't have points in the reinforcements pool? = no mortal wounds can be dished out since you don't have points to replace the dead ones with verminus models according to the spells rule.

The rules are very clear.

Anything period that adds free models requires you to have extra points banked.

Things like the 13th would still work as mortal wounds, they just wouldn't get you free models.

It is funny how so many believe Nagash isn't worth his points with the summoning nerf. Really, he still is worth ~900 points (also, summoning remains far from useless) because he does so much more than just summon. But similarly uber-powered monster heroes (Archaeon, Glottkin, etc) are so insanely undercosted that it makes Nagash seem bad by comparison. The reality is he isn't bad, he just isn't overpowered like every other giant monster.

That is exactly correct. The combination of losing his OP ability (and yes folks... his summoning abilities are busted without restraint) and other mega heroes being about 20% too cheap do make Nagash seem like a bad buy.

Regarding the coven throne, I believe that RAI the blood kiss? ability that turns enemy heroes into vampires, should not cost any reinforcement points, as it's already too situational enough to pull off that ability. but RAW, it will probably cost reinforcement points.

The problem with "RAI" is that "RAI" is subjective to each person.

"RAI" really stands for "how I want the rules to be" lol (unless a game dev comes out and actually states that something was how it was intended)

Also, from my experience, only GW so often writes stuff that are discussed as to having differences between RAI and RAW.

Anyway, in my gaming group, we only play RAW to minimize possible conflicts if ever we play with another group.