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How many points would you say a GUO should increase by if they get the Unkillable special rule-the GMC rule that makes Poison and such only wound on 6s, and ID do d3 wounds instead?

GUO just feel a little too fragile to me, but this is obviously a nice buff, so should come with a commiserate point increase.

I almost always kill GUOs with some combination of venoms and warp spiders. Therefore, my biased self says this should be ridiculously expensive for further nerfing my beloved dark kin! On the other hand, my more objective self thinks that this would be a fairly reasonable upgrade for them to have access to.

The ID-as-d3 wounds thing seems like it should be pretty cheap. Outside of force weapons, there aren't a ton of things that can reliably insta-death them. Poison is similarly rare outside of dark eldar. So generally speaking, these buffs would be kind of situationally useful and therefor inexpensive. Against marines and IG, for instance, this really only comes up against bale wolves(?), sternguard, and beast-hunter shells. Somewhat niche.

What I'd like to point out about your recommendation is that, because the situations in which these buffs help are so niche, it kind of feels like you're targeting armies that are hurt by these proposed buffs the most. For instance, most marine players don't care too much about your resistance to poison, but dark eldar will suddenly have a much more difficult fight on their hands. Weapons that can insta-death a GUO are rare (outside of strength D eldar), but those armies that can actually bring a fair bit of insta-death include GK and Harlequins, both of whom are theoretically meant to be well-suited for fighting daemons.

So on some level, it kind of feels like you'd be nerfing dark eldar and making GK and harlequins worse at dealing with one of their favorite targets. In general, however, I don't think these rules should be very expensive as they don't come up very often against most foes.

Sniper Scouts too.

And yeah, you have a point. Maybe just have a Special GMC or GMC-Lite GUO, instead of making it apply to all of them?

At most maybe the poison part, but Snipers and stuff should still do alright damage. Maybe.

Well, snipers would theoretically work fine against them unless you include snipers in the "and stuff" part of your opening post. Snipers aren't poison, after all.

I actually do like the idea of Nurgle being hard to poison (he's already highly toxic!"), but maybe only go a half-step with it? Maybe create a piece of wargear for all nurgle characters gives poison weapons a -1 to their to-wound rolls? My venoms will still be good against you, but less so, and you paid the points to balance us out in that regard.

I'm kind of torn on the insta-death thing. D-weapons should probably still be a big deal for GUOs. Making harlies/GK worse at their intended job isn't great, but neither is losing your slow, expensive HQ to one lucky attack. Maybe ignore the effects of ID (but not the actual wound) on a 4+ or something? You get to be the super durable greater daemon by having a chance at shrugging off a normally lethal wound, but your opponents still get to use their shinies.

D-Weapons aren't ID, so they'd work fine against them.

Sniper is included in that "and stuff" since it's just the GMC rule.

I like -1 to Poison, though. That seems like it'd fit.

Alternately, force a re-roll of successful poison wounds against a GUO.

 JNAProductions wrote:
D-Weapons aren't ID, so they'd work fine against them.

Sniper is included in that "and stuff" since it's just the GMC rule.

I like -1 to Poison, though. That seems like it'd fit.

D-weapons inflict ID as if they were Strength 10, doesn't really affect the GUO with his T7 base but there are edge cases under which it theoretically could (rad grenade Inquisitor plus Skitarii Rangers to drop him to T5 and then the Salamanders unique powerfist or a Knight to put out D-strength in melee).

-1 to poison or make poison wound on 5+ would work better than making poison wound on 6, the ID suggestion would neuter Harlequins more than it would GK (Harlequins have a few weapons that ID on 6s to wound, GK have lots of weapons that ID all the time. Usually if a Grey Knight IDs you he had three buddies at a later Initiative order ready and waiting to do the same.). Absent a broader overhaul to the way wounds and ID work I'd say leave it as is.

(Once upon a time long ago the Daemon rule conferred Eternal Warrior, but Grey Knights' signature tricks were massive Strength everywhere and Invulnerable-save-ignoring guns back then, not Force Weapons across the board, and Harlequins didn't have a Codex.)

If we change the Unkillable rule so that Poison is -1 instead of the ridiculous "only wounds on 6" (thereby giving DE a chance against WKs), I'd say the GUO could get that for free.
It's not like GUOs are competitive right now anyway (compared to other choices) as they are SSSOOO SSSLLLLLOOOOOOWW.

 Galef wrote:
If we change the Unkillable rule so that Poison is -1 instead of the ridiculous "only wounds on 6" (thereby giving DE a chance against WKs), I'd say the GUO could get that for free.
It's not like GUOs are competitive right now anyway (compared to other choices) as they are SSSOOO SSSLLLLLOOOOOOWW.

They're the ones with T7 and Biomancy, mind. Slow, but when you've got a model that takes more killing than a Wraithknight (T10) sitting on an objective it doesn't need to be fast.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Galef wrote:
If we change the Unkillable rule so that Poison is -1 instead of the ridiculous "only wounds on 6" (thereby giving DE a chance against WKs), I'd say the GUO could get that for free.
It's not like GUOs are competitive right now anyway (compared to other choices) as they are SSSOOO SSSLLLLLOOOOOOWW.

They're the ones with T7 and Biomancy, mind. Slow, but when you've got a model that takes more killing than a Wraithknight (T10) sitting on an objective it doesn't need to be fast.

GUO only starts with T7, 5++ , and Shrouded. It has to randomly generate all other defensive buffs like Iron Arm or FNP make it unreliable

 CrownAxe wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Galef wrote:
If we change the Unkillable rule so that Poison is -1 instead of the ridiculous "only wounds on 6" (thereby giving DE a chance against WKs), I'd say the GUO could get that for free.
It's not like GUOs are competitive right now anyway (compared to other choices) as they are SSSOOO SSSLLLLLOOOOOOWW.

They're the ones with T7 and Biomancy, mind. Slow, but when you've got a model that takes more killing than a Wraithknight (T10) sitting on an objective it doesn't need to be fast.

GUO only starts with T7, 5++ , and Shrouded. It has to randomly generate all other defensive buffs like Iron Arm or FNP make it unreliable

And fully decked out a GUO cost more than a WK and can really only damage stuff in CC, whereas a WK can reach out a kill an IK at range.
But I'll try to compare the GUO to choices in it's codex, all of which are much faster (FMCs) and access to better default powers.