Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

my friend and I got in an argument:

He claims that the Primarch Project was a "failure" and that it led to the near death of the Imperium, he argues that the Emperor could of created the space marines, without the need for the primarchs, and they would of been successful

What do you think? Were the Primarchs needed for the success of the Great Crusade...or was the project a failure

I was under the impression that the Primarchs were created as both prototypes of the Legions and as commanders for the Great Crusade. They were fundamentally integrated into the Space Marine project, removing them would have fundamentally altered the nature of the project.

Not to mention that absent the Primarchs there would have been a different command staff during the Great Crusade and Chaos could have gone after them instead.

That is true that Chaos could have altered a different command staff. But those beings wouldn't have had the power or ability most likely to sway thousands upon thousands of marines. And if somehow this did happen, the emperor would have had no problem destroying them at the end of the heresy. Without Primarchs there is no heresy on the scale of the Horus Heresy, and the webway project gets completed. I'm sure the Emperor also could have figured out how to make marines with no primarchs

Yes they were. Where the big E went wrong is making them all unique snapshots of himself - like a huge narcissist.

If he'd have made 20x Robute Guilliman and not played favourites with any of them things would have gone much smoother.

If he made 20 Roboute Guillimans they'd all have carved out their own little interstellar empires all over the galaxy and you'd have a federation of multiple different empires.

Probably a much nicer place to live, but much less prepared or able to react swiftly to galactic-scale conflicts.

As regards the Primarchs, there's two ways to look at them without strong evidence confirming in either direction (like all the best 40k fluff).

1. The Emperor intended them to be the generals of his Astartes legions during the Great Crusade.

2. They were the volatile prototypes for the more stable Astartes, and were never intended to see the light of day.

Personally, I'm leaning towards the latter. It's known that the Emperor exterminated the Thunder Warriors because they were too unstable and unsuitable for a long-term galactic crusade. As displayed by their physical mutations and many of their unstable psychological traits the Primarchs are not stable. My thinking is that they were Astartes prototypes, intended simply to be test-tube gene-seed generators to supply the legions with fresh gene-seed.

When they were spirited away by the Ruinous Powers, and the first (Horus) was discovered, it was only Horus winning him round that made him reconsider his intentions for the primarchs. They became the general that they were.

However, I don't think the Great Crusade would have been as successful without them. Thus, you could say that the primarch project was both a success and a failure. It succeeded in being a geneseed bank for the legions, and it succeeded in the unintended purpose of increasing the reach and success of the great crusade. However, it failed in that I doubt the Horus Heresy would have happened without them.

It's impossible to say whether the IoM would be better off without them. Without them, the IoM could have been unified and stronger facing its foes, or it could have been unified but much smaller and unable to stand up effectively to threats.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:


As regards the Primarchs, there's two ways to look at them without strong evidence confirming in either direction (like all the best 40k fluff).

That doesn't fit the timeline. The original description of making the Primarchs was that the Emperor made them, Chaos stole them, and only after they were gone the Emperor had to come up with an alternative idea, which was making space marines.

Interesting. That may well be what's written in the fluff, I'm not sure, but it doesn't make a great deal of sense if you think about it.

Did the Emperor plan to invade the galaxy with 20 big blokes and an army of humans, after he'd already shown a preference for making superhuman soldiers with the Thunder Warriors.

I thought it was just prior to wiping out the Thunder Warriors that he had his idea for Thunder Warriors mk2: the Astartes.

How much of that period is written in direct terms, and how much as accounts from in-universe characters after the event?

 MarsNZ wrote:


If he'd have made 20x Robute Guilliman and not played favourites with any of them things would have gone much smoother.

If he had created 20x Alphariuses and left them strew among the stars, eventually they would come home looking for vengeance.

Wait, who says he didn't created 20x Alphariuses?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheLumberJack wrote:
That is true that Chaos could have altered a different command staff. But those beings wouldn't have had the power or ability most likely to sway thousands upon thousands of marines. And if somehow this did happen, the emperor would have had no problem destroying them at the end of the heresy. Without Primarchs there is no heresy on the scale of the Horus Heresy, and the webway project gets completed. I'm sure the Emperor also could have figured out how to make marines with no primarchs

The Primarchs were supposed to be incorruptible, which is why big E trusted them. Obviously he was wrong, and ended up paying a terrible price. It wasnt easy though for Chaos to turn the primarchs, it was an extraordinary feat on the chaos gods part.
Looking at the other leaders who fell we might expect mortals to fall at a similar or even greater rate. Over half the AdMech fell to Chaos. Over half the imperial navy fell to chaos. Only half the primarchs and less than half the space marines fell.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
If he made 20 Roboute Guillimans they'd all have carved out their own little interstellar empires all over the galaxy and you'd have a federation of multiple different empires.

No, you wouldn't. You'd have 20 generals who see the bigger picture and leave behind functional productive and compliant systems in the wake of their conquests. You'd have considerably more marines, and more importantly you wouldn't have unstable genetic defects such as Night Lords, Thousand Sons, Space Wolves etc. You'd also have 20 competent managers with a place in society once the crusade has completed the conquest of the galaxy, instead of 10-15 emotionally crippled lunatics looking for the next skull to split open. On the off chance that galactic or warp conditions temporarily separate segments of the Imperium, you'd be safe in the knowledge that any of these 20 leaders would maintain the status quo to the best of their considerable ability until contact could be re-established.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Interesting. That may well be what's written in the fluff, I'm not sure, but it doesn't make a great deal of sense if you think about it.

Did the Emperor plan to invade the galaxy with 20 big blokes and an army of humans, after he'd already shown a preference for making superhuman soldiers with the Thunder Warriors.

I thought it was just prior to wiping out the Thunder Warriors that he had his idea for Thunder Warriors mk2: the Astartes.

How much of that period is written in direct terms, and how much as accounts from in-universe characters after the event?

It's an omniscient narrator. It's written like a bestiary, or like it was just a finished draft of what the designers were coming up with.

The Primarchs were part of a plan to guide the development of humanity as it transitioned to a psychic race, to prevent its being enslaved and destroyed by chaos. It's entirely possible that the reason the Crusade was a military invasion of the galaxy largely because the Primarchs had been lost and he needed to get them back quickly.

I think it's something that the Emperor used the thunder warriors to conqueror earth in time for the warp storms to be cleared, and then got rid of them. The last thing that he might have wanted was galaxy wide bloodshed and political upheaval.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:


When they were spirited away by the Ruinous Powers, and the first (Horus) was discovered, it was only Horus winning him round that made him reconsider his intentions for the primarchs. They became the general that they were.

What I never understood is if Horus was found first how come the Dark angels are the first legion ?

Didn't it take a while to find Horus? That would give time for a non-primarch led first legion to establish itself among the stars.

Asterios wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:


When they were spirited away by the Ruinous Powers, and the first (Horus) was discovered, it was only Horus winning him round that made him reconsider his intentions for the primarchs. They became the general that they were.

What I never understood is if Horus was found first how come the Dark angels are the first legion ?

Because the Legions were conceived (not necessarily completed) before even Horus was retrieved, and were assigned numbers based on their order of creation. The First Legion was in a lot of ways, the prototype for all the others.

 TheLumberJack wrote:
That is true that Chaos could have altered a different command staff. But those beings wouldn't have had the power or ability most likely to sway thousands upon thousands of marines. And if somehow this did happen, the emperor would have had no problem destroying them at the end of the heresy. Without Primarchs there is no heresy on the scale of the Horus Heresy, and the webway project gets completed. I'm sure the Emperor also could have figured out how to make marines with no primarchs

There's a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation here. The usefulness of Chaos getting hooks in the Emperor's command staff is proportional to how useful the command staff is to the Emperor. Post-Heresy the Imperium's command structure got reworked so there'd be fewer lynchpins that could be used to make a mess of things, and look how smoothly it's running now.

Engrenages wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:


When they were spirited away by the Ruinous Powers, and the first (Horus) was discovered, it was only Horus winning him round that made him reconsider his intentions for the primarchs. They became the general that they were.

What I never understood is if Horus was found first how come the Dark angels are the first legion ?

Because the Legions were conceived (not necessarily completed) before even Horus was retrieved, and were assigned numbers based on their order of creation. The First Legion was in a lot of ways, the prototype for all the others.

What Ynneadwraith says. The First Legion are the First Legion, Horus just happened to be found first and reunited with his Legion first. Horus reflects on this that the Lion doesn't ever seem to let him live it down that despite Horus being found first his Legion was not the first conceived.

I think everything went wrong for the Primarch project once the Primarchs were scattered. Some become hopelessly damaged after that.

Thanks

I don't think it's the scattering that ruins the Primarchs, it's the Emperor's shoddy handling of first contact.

If he had helped Angron defeat his oppressors, Angron would have been loyal to him to the bitter end. If he hadn't estranged Magnus and the Thousand Sons with the Edict of Nikea, I doubt Magnus would have been so suspected. If he'd treated Perturabo even slightly well, and allowed him to bring a little civilisation to the Imperium rather than forcing him to become a warrior, he wouldn't have been so bitter. If he hadn't humiliated Lorgar, he would have been ever faithful.

It's the Emperor's blunders more than anything that caused the heresy. Without those, you've got maybe Horus infected by the anathame, a daemon-possessed Fulgrim and poor Mortarion trapped in the warp who fall to chaos.

Neither the Primarchs or Legionaries where necessary.

The emperor could have perfected and stabilized the thunderwarriors he already had and used them to conquer the galaxy.

It would have been harder and taken longer but in theend it would have resulted in a more stable imperium

I suspect the reason the Primarchs were all created slightly differently was because the E was actually 'prototyping' which variants of gene seed would end up the best suited for continuation after the culmination of the great crusade (much like the Thunder Warriors). We already know two proved unsuitable enough for whatever reason to warrant destruction early on. I imagine that had the Heresy not reared it's head, Curze, Lorgar, and Angron with their respective legions would have been consigned to the dustbin as well before long. Sadism, blind devotion, and wanton violence weren't exactly admirable traits.

In the long term, Magnus and Sanguinius, and even Russ may well have followed them. The Thousand Sons were vulnerable to the flesh change, the Blood Angels to the Black Rage, and the Wolves the Wolf within.

Per Corax's vision in Deliverance Lost, the Marines were him salvaging the project once the Primarchs were gone.

The Thunder Warriors were perfected via the Custodes. They may have been intended as the original army of conquest- perhaps they eliminated the Thunder Warriors and lacked numbers as a result.

I used to think the Primarchs were competing designs, but I began to lean toward how they are being portrayed: Each had a purpose. Guilliman, the one who shares in all his brother's gifts, was the guardian of the Rim against external threats. Curze controlled the assassins, Lorgar the church, Magnus maintained the throne and Vulkan wandered the webway, repairing it. Horus ruled. Ferrus eliminated the Xenos, etc.

The Wolves, , of course, are anti-Chaos.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:


It's the Emperor's blunders more than anything that caused the heresy. Without those, you've got maybe Horus infected by the anathame, a daemon-possessed Fulgrim and poor Mortarion trapped in the warp who fall to chaos.

You've still got Alpharius being mysterious

godking wrote:
Neither the Primarchs or Legionaries where necessary.

The emperor could have perfected and stabilized the thunderwarriors he already had and used them to conquer the galaxy.

It would have been harder and taken longer but in the end it would have resulted in a more stable imperium

That's presuming the Thunder Warriors were able to be stabilised/perfected. There are limits to technology in 40k, even that which is created by the Emperor.

Plus, technically a stabilised Thunder Warrior is an Astartes, no?

 Exergy wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:


It's the Emperor's blunders more than anything that caused the heresy. Without those, you've got maybe Horus infected by the anathame, a daemon-possessed Fulgrim and poor Mortarion trapped in the warp who fall to chaos.

You've still got Alpharius being mysterious

I knew I forgot one!

2 questions

1. The Primarchs were all found during the beginning, middle or end of the great crusade?

2. chaos was why the primarchs were completely different from each other?

1) The Custodes, if anything, are the perfected Thunder Warriors. Thunder Warriors were physically a bit unstable (hence what's-his-name looking for more stable organs), physically superior to Astartes directly (possible tradeoff in that they lack the void/adverse condition implants that make Astartes so multi-purpose), and had a prototype of the soul-binding that astropaths get, making them more resistant to psychic shenanigans.

I'd guess that Custodians are "designed" "Thunder Warriors from birth"; their bodies incorporating compensation for the Thunder Warrior problems, with the Primarchs being a next step: a Custodes "core" body with various superhuman enhancements and a psychically designed consciousness.

Primarchs were found throughout the Crusade. Horus within the first few years; Alpharius roughly 20 years before it ended, by the old fluff.

Each Primarch was designed with unique features. One of the fun aspects of the fluff is how much each was designed to be what he became, and how much each was subtly warped by Chaos. Primarchs, apparently, are even more natively resistant to Chaos than regular Astartes, and the Emperor, it is strongly implied, guided some or all of them to the planets they landed on.

As Forgeworld has published their Horus Heresy books, they've added two wrinkles. 1) The original character of each Legion, founded by the Emperor in anticipation of finding each Primarch, and 2) they've expanded on Primarch differences.

The first point indicates that the Legions were designed by the Emperor as he expected each legion to be- the early Night Lords were all hyperviolent criminals who lived by codes of honor, for instance. That's very close to the code that Curze tried to embrace. The second leads to interesting items; example, the "last three Legions" were kept separate for "special development" by the Emperor. That's the Salamanders, Raven Guard, and Alpha Legion.

It's implied that at least two of those three were more experimental. The Primarchs didn't just incorporate human DNA, and the Salamanders and Raven Guard have unusual characteristics. The Salamanders turn coal-black and can see in the infrared, implying their melanchrome is over-active, they are also resistant to heat damage. Well, now we know their Primarch is truly immortal and psychically regenerates his body while it has cells remaining; maybe it's more their melanchrome is over-active and even by Astartes standards, they heal quickly- which in turn makes them resistant to flame weapons. The Raven Guard bleach colorless, this is considered a flaw in their melanchrome; and enter a berserk condition marked by all-black eyes. Corax had strange all-black eyes, and he could turn invisible; for him it's an instinctive psychic ability, but perhaps he incorporates chameleon characteristics, and that's why the Guard bleach; they simple can't project other colors on top to complete the camouflage!

The symbolic titles each Primarch is given by Chaos, and the similarities to at least one form of tarot, matches this as well. There's an awesome analysis somewhere about how the Primarchs and their relationships mirror the tarot, allowing us to speculate on the nature of the two missing members. Someone will have the link.

The other item I particularly like is that the Primarch that spent the most subjective time in the Warp, per the new HH series, and is therefore most at risk of mutation/corruption . . .was Lorgar, with no external signs of corruption. But his mind was prepped, I assume is the implication.

LightKing wrote:
2 questions

1. The Primarchs were all found during the beginning, middle or end of the great crusade?

Horus was found very early in the crusade and ended up being it's greatest general.
Alpharius was the last one found, I believe Horus was already warmaster at that point, towards the end of the great crusade.
Most of the Primarchs were found between the early-mid crusade and commanded their forces through the most rapid expansion of the empire.

2. chaos was why the primarchs were completely different from each other?

No they were different from the begining. Big E was trying some new stuff out.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

godking wrote:
Neither the Primarchs or Legionaries where necessary.

The emperor could have perfected and stabilized the thunderwarriors he already had and used them to conquer the galaxy.

It would have been harder and taken longer but in the end it would have resulted in a more stable imperium

That's presuming the Thunder Warriors were able to be stabilised/perfected. There are limits to technology in 40k, even that which is created by the Emperor.

Plus, technically a stabilised Thunder Warrior is an Astartes, no?

 Exergy wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:


It's the Emperor's blunders more than anything that caused the heresy. Without those, you've got maybe Horus infected by the anathame, a daemon-possessed Fulgrim and poor Mortarion trapped in the warp who fall to chaos.

They could Arik Taranis did it by watching the emperor do it once he got the correct genetic material . The emperor with the resources after conquering Terra could have at the very least stabilized the thunder warriors to conquer the planets in the immediate vicinity.Per praetorian of Dorn we know that there where geneticists around who could have helped (forced to help) the emperor perfect the thunder warriors without using warp lore .

The emperor did not need to make deals with the the gods of the warp to conquer the universe.

His Thunder warriors could have done the job.



You've still got Alpharius being mysterious

I knew I forgot one!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

godking wrote:
Neither the Primarchs or Legionaries where necessary.

The emperor could have perfected and stabilized the thunderwarriors he already had and used them to conquer the galaxy.

It would have been harder and taken longer but in the end it would have resulted in a more stable imperium

That's presuming the Thunder Warriors were able to be stabilised/perfected. There are limits to technology in 40k, even that which is created by the Emperor.

Plus, technically a stabilised Thunder Warrior is an Astartes, no?

 Exergy wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:


It's the Emperor's blunders more than anything that caused the heresy. Without those, you've got maybe Horus infected by the anathame, a daemon-possessed Fulgrim and poor Mortarion trapped in the warp who fall to chaos.

You've still got Alpharius being mysterious

I knew I forgot one!

They could Arik Taranis did it by watching the emperor do it once he got the correct genetic material . The emperor with the resources after conquering Terra could have at the very least stabilized the thunder warriors to conquer the planets in the immediate vicinity.Per praetorian of Dorn we know that there where geneticists around who could have helped (forced to help) the emperor perfect the thunder warriors without using warp lore .

The emperor did not need to make deals with the the gods of the warp to conquer the universe.

His Thunder warriors could have done the job.

 Exergy wrote:

LightKing wrote:
2 questions

1. The Primarchs were all found during the beginning, middle or end of the great crusade?

Horus was found very early in the crusade and ended up being it's greatest general.
Alpharius was the last one found, I believe Horus was already warmaster at that point, towards the end of the great crusade.
Most of the Primarchs were found between the early-mid crusade and commanded their forces through the most rapid expansion of the empire.

2. chaos was why the primarchs were completely different from each other?

No they were different from the begining. Big E was trying some new stuff out.

No Alpharius was discovered before Horus was made Warmaster, as the novel Legion starts a bit before Horus' promotion.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:


I don't think it's the scattering that ruins the Primarchs, it's the Emperor's shoddy handling of first contact.

If the Primarchs hadn't been scattered would there have been a need to reunite with them?

But yes, I do agree with you post scattering. Why did the Emperor handle certain Primarchs differently to others. The problem the Emperor faced is that the Primarchs were created to be his generals and he needed them as such whether they liked it or not.

 Exergy wrote:

LightKing wrote:
2 questions2. chaos was why the primarchs were completely different from each other?

No they were different from the begining. Big E was trying some new stuff out.

I think at a genetic level you are right, the Emperor certainly put different juju into each Primarch but I think that the personalities that they developed on their homeworlds was a bit far removed from the Emperors original design, which I guess would be a direct act of the Chaos Gods landing the Primarchs on what planet that they did. That's my thoughts on the matter.

LightKing wrote:
What do you think? Were the Primarchs needed for the success of the Great Crusade...or was the project a failure

They were critical to the creation of the Legions due to the fact that they had much of their gene seed within them. This is commented on with Fulgrim where his Legion are dying out until they found him.