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Greetings all,

I'm thinking about picking up the Spess Elves, but I'm not sure how to proceed. I've never played Eldar, and I don't want to be tfg. I'm looking to collect a fun army that has a good chance of winning, but that's not so beardy my friends won't play me. My local meta ranges from hardcore win at all costs tau and SM players, to fluffy IG and Nids. I was thinking about collecting the Eldar decurion which I understand is sub-optimal when compared to a CAD. I was thinking about doing Ulthwe and running a jetseer council. Of course, I love the wraith knight model, but I wouldn't have to run one in every single list. I really like the idea of a mobile shooty army that isn't completely removed from the psych or assault phases. I also love the plain old guardian models and falcon chassis tanks.

Also...I love the dark eldar and harlequin models, and would like to incorporate them into the force at some point. I've considered doing corsairs as well.

Is the start collecting box a good place to start? If you were just starting to collect an Eldar force where would you start?

I'm not even sure I should be answering as I am no expert. I'll tell you what I've been told though. The Start Collecting box would be a solid start that would let you branch out either way. If you spam jetbikes and wraithlords after getting the box set, you'd wind up being tfg. If you went for things like aspect warriors after the box set, you'd be a lot fluffier and fun to play. I think the box set is a great starting point because you will use the models and it won't close your options off either way.

Rakar means Wraithknights, spamming wraithknights makes you tfg.

Honestly even a single Wraithknight is pushing it. the WK and scatterbikes are the face of beardy eldar

 CrownAxe wrote:
Rakar means Wraithknights, spamming wraithknights makes you tfg.

Honestly even a single Wraithknight is pushing it. the WK and scatterbikes are the face of beardy eldar

But it's a giant ghost knight necromantic spess elf killy thing! I have to have at least one...

Diogenes wrote:
I'm thinking about picking up the Spess Elves, but I'm not sure how to proceed. I've never played Eldar, and I don't want to be tfg. I'm looking to collect a fun army that has a good chance of winning, but that's not so beardy my friends won't play me. My local meta ranges from hardcore win at all costs tau and SM players, to fluffy IG and Nids. I was thinking about collecting the Eldar decurion which I understand is sub-optimal when compared to a CAD. I was thinking about doing Ulthwe and running a jetseer council. Of course, I love the wraith knight model, but I wouldn't have to run one in every single list. I really like the idea of a mobile shooty army that isn't completely removed from the psych or assault phases. I also love the plain old guardian models and falcon chassis tanks.

Also...I love the dark eldar and harlequin models, and would like to incorporate them into the force at some point. I've considered doing corsairs as well.

Is the start collecting box a good place to start? If you were just starting to collect an Eldar force where would you start?

Get whatever models you like. You are going to be spending a LOT of your hard-earned money on your army. If you want a Wraithknight and jetbikes, then just buy them. Given that there's both Tau and SMs in your meta, so you can't be TFG. If you want Guardians in a Falcon / Wave Serpent, then field that as a gimme when you're not playing against Tau or SM.

If you want the Harlequins, buy the boardgame models off eBay.

If I were starting out, I'd get the hardcore stuff right off the bat:
* Jetseer, 2x 3 Scatterlaser Jetbikes, Vyper
* 2x 5 Warp Spiders, Dark Reapers
* 1 Wraithknight with the D guns.
Against IG, simply play them "count as" regular Jetbikes and the sonic Knight. If someone makes a stink about WYSIWYG, you can always bring hard mode to the table.

Remember, it's your money. With 8E coming soon, all that good stuff will likely get nerfed. Might as well enjoy it while you can.

All codex eldar models have really good rules. Take whatever model you like and your army will be just fine even if you go outside the stuff most people field.
For example even eldar shining spear's aren't bad really and I have never faced them outside computer simulated games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:


Remember, it's your money. With 8E coming soon, all that good stuff will likely get nerfed. Might as well enjoy it while you can.

It might then again we expected the same of 7th ; )

 oldzoggy wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:


Remember, it's your money. With 8E coming soon, all that good stuff will likely get nerfed. Might as well enjoy it while you can.

It might then again we expected the same of 7th ; )

No we didn't. Everyone thought 7ed was going to be a 6.5 mini update because it was only a 2 year turn around. Everyone was shocked to find out it was a whole entire rules edition

 CrownAxe wrote:
Rakar means Wraithknights, spamming wraithknights makes you tfg.

Honestly even a single Wraithknight is pushing it. the WK and scatterbikes are the face of beardy eldar

Yeah I did! Sorry about that.

Depending on budget maybe start collecting in 200pt Kill Team blocks, for Eldar this will usually get you a blob of guardians or a jetbike squad along with an Aspect Unit to get a feel for what you like and don't like

I'd recommend sticking to CAD's with added formations for the army, the Hosts are odd and require 'tax' units and sometimes these are very average (Vypers)

Seer councils are very strong but need to get to their first psy phase fairly unharmed

A single Wraith-Knight is usually fine, people moan about it and some games it will dominate and others it'll get turned inside out by Grav-Spam, more than one however is edging up to the border of TFG land

If you want to stick Harlequins or Dark Eldar in you might want to look at the Doom of Mymeara book, I think a couple of the Pale Host Craftworld options let you include them as part of the main army, also has the Corsair rules

The thing about scatterbikes is that they're grossly OP if you take an army of just a bunch of them, but if you're playing a combined-Eldar force with DE/Harlies and you've got scatterbikes in the Craftworld element they're a crutch to make your less-functional elements go, not an auto-win button.

The big thing combined-Eldar offers is the ability to put more effective units in Raiders than just the DE units; they become highly mobile gun barges for Dark Reapers or Fire Dragons, or assault transports for Howling Banshees or Harlequin units. Jetseers are helpful for this because while you can't use Blessings from inside transports you can use Fortune or Shrouding on them from outside.

I wouldn't recommend the actual Seer Council formation, it's an incredibly expensive formation that doesn't really help much. Five jetbike Warlocks are 250pts compared to 230 for two Farseers, they have fewer Wounds, fewer Mastery levels, roll for fewer powers, and use worse tables. Stick with one or two Jetseers in your HQ selection to start off with.

As for early purchases Start Collecting: Eldar is fine, but you'll want to pick up some non-jetbike units pretty quickly to avoid being TFG in early/learning games. Start Collecting Dark Eldar, Guardian Defenders, and some of the glut of Harlequins that are getting Ebayed at low prices because of Death Masque are all places you could go next.

I wouldn't recommend the Pale Court battlehost for using Harlequins in a combined-Eldar army, it may let you use them but you're only allowed Troupes and you miss out on a lot of cool formation benefits the Harlequin book gives you.

I’ll toss another vote into the “Your army, take what you want” pile. Especially as it looks like you are going to have a wide variety of power levels to go up against. It’s fine to want the WK, but it seems that you recognize that it’s not for every opponent. Codex: Craftworld Eldar is very powerful, and there aren’t really any duds in it. Some units might be better then others, but you can pretty much take what you want. And if you take too many of the “meh” things, just splash a couple of the ZOMG powerful ones in to compensate.

If you can find the old battleforce, that makes for a good base. 10 guardians, 5 DA, Vyper, WS.
The start collecting box is good (especially if you like grav tanks)

Magnets are your friend, and fairly easy to do for a lot of the Eldar vehicles/bikes. You could run your bikes with the old 1-in-3 special weapon rule from the past for casual play, but when going up against someone who want to play hard, go full scatbike.

My personal philosophy for Eldar is “getting mud on your boots is for lesser races”. But that might just be the arrogant Saim-Hann talking. But basically bikes or tansports for everyone. But the Falcon and the jetbike are what brought me to the army, so it’s what I like about them. Falcons are good for small squads, like firedragons or DA (which could use a WS, but I own two Falcons) The one WS I own drags around a squad of guardians.

If you want an assault element, you could take an autarch leading a squad of shining spears, or a squad of scorpions.

 oldzoggy wrote:
All codex eldar models have really good rules.

That is untrue. An Eldar army composed primarily of Storm Guardians, Eldar Rangers, and Howling Banshees is going to underperform by quite a bit.

For the record, I have something like 35 Eldar Rangers painted, with a matching Warlock. I also own something like 40 Howling Banshees. Granted that the Rangers were a lot of fun under the 3E Craftworld book, but the Banshees have never been particularly good.

Just don't be a tool. If you want to play Eldar, do it for the fluff. Don't do it for jet bikes and wraithknights. Outside of that, collect the army based off of the scheme you want. If you want bikes, then limit yourself with a 1/3 special weapon. Magnetize the models so that you can always take the gloves off on request, but don't show up with full scat bikes and expect them not to despise your army.

Just to add my two cents to this thread:

Start collecting box is realy the only way to go $$$-wise if you like jetbikes. Tank can be assembled as both Fire Prism or Night Spinner, so you can either have it on anti-tank or anti-horde duty.

Next step $$$-wise is to grab Death Masque Harlequins from ebay for some CC fun (but incorporating them in your lists is a bit tricky, with only formation route available). And Harlequins themselves, while powerful and fun, take time to learn how to use them properly, so they help mitigate the "automatic WAAC TFG" problem associated with typical Eldar lists.

As for Jetbikes, I really wouldn't go for 1-in-3 route, it is usualy wasting points/shots if weapons have mixed range. Go all-same, but follow sugestions and magnetize them, so you can scale your power-level: all-scatterlasers are seriously broken (especially in Eternal War missions) and are best used only against other TFG powerlists, canon bikes are strong but somehow reasonable due to 24" range and less shots, while plain catapult bikes are really nothing to be feared much. And in Maelstrom missions, when you have to score in each turn and go out of your deployment zone early in the game, all-bikes list are very vulnerable to geting stuck&destroyed in CC.

But if your group isn't realy a competetive one (with a lot of deathstars and such) I would recomend not investing in a Wraithknight realy - it is very easy to end up as TFG with him and he doesn't realy fit saim-hann style bike lists fluff wise. He's a must-have if you go for all-wraith Pale Court armies though, as they have mobility and range issues to compensate, but you seem to not dig wraith-constructs much.

Dip your models in pure cheddar and embrace the Eldar feeling.

Wow, the salt/getting triggered by Eldar is real here lol.

The Craftworld Warhost is quite fun to play, "sub-optimal" as it is, but any CAD that's non-spammy is fine. War Walkers are a good way to get some non-traditional mobile firepower. Wraithguard probably won't get you any mean glares, too.

But seriously, collect what you think looks fun. Playing models/units you like and having fun is key. If you're feeling like what you think as fun is spammy, make other arrangements - handicap yourself by bringing 15% less points, something like that.

Thanks for all the great feedback dakka. I think I'm going try and collect towards a saim-hann kind of list, and yeah I'll probably pick up a WK at some point because I like the model, but I don't intend to use it in fluffy/friendly game. I may try going in a wraith direction at some point in the future. I will definitely invest in harlequins and DE early on.

Quick question, in light of the new FAQ can you still put craftworld units in DE transports during deployment?

mokoshkana wrote:
Just don't be a tool. If you want to play Eldar, do it for the fluff. Don't do it for jet bikes and wraithknights. Outside of that, collect the army based off of the scheme you want. If you want bikes, then limit yourself with a 1/3 special weapon. Magnetize the models so that you can always take the gloves off on request, but don't show up with full scat bikes and expect them not to despise your army.

This is good advice, but honestly it's not just the fluff that draws me to them. I like the fluff for nearly every army in 40k. That's why I play this game and not some other table top wargames. What really atttracts me to eldar is the play style and the aesthetics. They just look cool man and I think they will encourage me to step up my paint game. When I say play style I don't mean the copious amounts of cheddar. I mean I like the speed and trickiness. It's a lot more finesse than my CSM (iron warriors) and SM armies. I just think it'll be a whole new way to play the game for me bsides metal boxes.

What drew me to Eldar in the first place (besides the sexy grav armor, which was a major factor) was how the fluff/playstyle described them. An army of hyper specialists. You took the right tool, for the right job, and won with it. Take the wrong tool, and loose hilariously. Unfortunately the army has degenerated into “spam broken stuff, win.” Which is really not the way eldar have been traditionally presented.

I still love the concept of the eldar being a toolbox. Take the right tool for the job, and use it well. Make sure your army is composed of the right tools. Stray from this at your peril.

As long as you don’t spam stuff, most people should be OK with whatever you field. Especially if you get a diverse lot of stuff to the table.

 Nevelon wrote:
What drew me to Eldar in the first place (besides the sexy grav armor, which was a major factor) was how the fluff/playstyle described them. An army of hyper specialists. You took the right tool, for the right job, and won with it. Take the wrong tool, and loose hilariously. Unfortunately the army has degenerated into “spam broken stuff, win.” Which is really not the way eldar have been traditionally presented.

I still love the concept of the eldar being a toolbox. Take the right tool for the job, and use it well. Make sure your army is composed of the right tools. Stray from this at your peril.

As long as you don’t spam stuff, most people should be OK with whatever you field. Especially if you get a diverse lot of stuff to the table.

Eldar have been "Spam broken stuff, win" for a LONG time. This edition is different then the past editions because almost everything in the codex is broken OP compared to everyone else. The sub-optimal units in the Eldar Codex would be considered Mid to high tier in other codexs. I would LOVE to have War walkers in my codex, instead im stuck with KillaKanz

KillaKan has AV11 to the Warwalkers AV10 but the Warwalker can put out 8 S6 shots at BS4 every turn, a Kan can put out 3 S5 Shots at BS3 a turn.

Ohh and the War walker gets a 5++ built into its 60pt cost. So for 10pts more then a Kan you get more then twice as many shots at higher BS and Strength and a built in 5++.

In 6th edition Eldar had a blast spamming Serpeant Shields, 5th edition you had the biker councils with Eldrad.

As far as the OP is concerned, play what you like. Everyone hates Eldar right now except Eldar so embrace the hate because your going to face it a lot.

Diogenes wrote:
Thanks for all the great feedback dakka. I think I'm going try and collect towards a saim-hann kind of list, and yeah I'll probably pick up a WK at some point because I like the model, but I don't intend to use it in fluffy/friendly game. I may try going in a wraith direction at some point in the future. I will definitely invest in harlequins and DE early on.

Very good!

BTW, if you're not magnetizing your weapons, build them with the hardcore stuff (e.g. all Scatter Lasers on the Jetbikes). When you're playing casual, it's OK to say they're Shuricats or 1/3 Shuricannon; however, if you're playing against SM or Tau in any sort of competitive event, then you'll need to have the Scatter Lasers modeled as such.

Remember, if they aren't paying, they don't get a say.

Diogenes wrote:
Thanks for all the great feedback dakka. I think I'm going try and collect towards a saim-hann kind of list, and yeah I'll probably pick up a WK at some point because I like the model, but I don't intend to use it in fluffy/friendly game. I may try going in a wraith direction at some point in the future. I will definitely invest in harlequins and DE early on.

Quick question, in light of the new FAQ can you still put craftworld units in DE transports during deployment?

The new FAQ prohibits deploying models in allied transports, they have to embark after deployment.

Mind that Harlequins are weirdly restrictive in their army composition, if you buy just a couple of units without knowing the formations/detachments you'll end up needing to buy a bunch more to actually use them. If you're doing Saim-Hann you'll likely be disappointed by Craftworld jetbikes single-minded focus on playing keep-away with heavy weapons, a Faolchu's Blade formation out of the Harlequin book (four Skyweaver models and one Voidweaver model at minimum, they get to reroll Jink saves) will get you frontline/manoeuverable close-combat jetbikes that'll feel more like you've got space cavalry and less like campy artillery.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Diogenes wrote:
Thanks for all the great feedback dakka. I think I'm going try and collect towards a saim-hann kind of list, and yeah I'll probably pick up a WK at some point because I like the model, but I don't intend to use it in fluffy/friendly game. I may try going in a wraith direction at some point in the future. I will definitely invest in harlequins and DE early on.

Very good!

BTW, if you're not magnetizing your weapons, build them with the hardcore stuff (e.g. all Scatter Lasers on the Jetbikes). When you're playing casual, it's OK to say they're Shuricats or 1/3 Shuricannon; however, if you're playing against SM or Tau in any sort of competitive event, then you'll need to have the Scatter Lasers modeled as such.

Remember, if they aren't paying, they don't get a say.

I find the ending of your post to be horrible advice. Rest of it is sound tho. While other players may not be buying his army, he does need to factor them into his buying. Because what good is a army that you cant play in any games? Sure, you can go full tfg and ard boy tournies with the same copy/pasta list as every other guy playing your faction. And if that is how you find your zen with 40k, then go for it. But the vast majority of players dont. So bear that into the equation. A simple rule of thumb I was introduced into the hobby with is that if you cant enjoy playing AGAINST your list, then chances are no one else will.

I started 40k with Necrons. While having losing its standing in the big 4 some time ago my list was darn annoying to play against and frankly, when I switched the armies around with my friend, I HATED playing against it. So I shelved it and am waiting for a more dynamic rule set before bringing them out again. I have currently moved to a "trash" tier army and am having 10x the amount of fun. I am also throwing around the idea of getting a small Tau force to run at a tournament level until the magical day they actually put time into a CSM codex (never). My point is the hobby is very broad. Its best to pin down how you want to interact with it and move on from that point.. If you have the money and time then perhaps a two armies is the best choice. One for your friendly level hobby and one for the competitive hobby. Just remember the magic rule when it comes to non-competitive play.... would you enjoy playing against your list?

Quick questions for the farseers out there:

I'm trying to decide between saim-hann and ulthwe. I like both paint schemes and I think I like the guardians more than most aspect shrines. I also really like the war walkers and I might want to incorporate wraith models at some point.

Can anybody tell me what fluffy ulthwe army would look like? I know about the black guardians. They don't currently have a representation in the rules do they? I know I'm past additions they had slightly better guardians. I also know the seer council is huge and eldrad . Anybody know what else makes an army ulthwe fluffy?

Back in 3e Guardians and Craftworld vehicles were WS/BS3, Black Guardians were WS/BS 4. If you want a fluffy Ulthwe army you'll be looking at a Seer Council, foot Guardians, and vehicles; avoid or limit Wraith units and Aspects.

Diogenes wrote:
Quick questions for the farseers out there:

I'm trying to decide between saim-hann and ulthwe. I like both paint schemes and I think I like the guardians more than most aspect shrines. I also really like the war walkers and I might want to incorporate wraith models at some point.

Can anybody tell me what fluffy ulthwe army would look like? I know about the black guardians. They don't currently have a representation in the rules do they? I know I'm past additions they had slightly better guardians. I also know the seer council is huge and eldrad . Anybody know what else makes an army ulthwe fluffy?

Back in the 3rd ed craftworlds codex they had the restriction where why could not have more aspect squads then they did guardians. And the guardian squads they took as compulsory choices got a slight stat boost.

A fluffy list list days would be formed around a core of guardians, and make you you have plenty of farseers and warlocks. Try to keep the support elements piloted by normal guys, rather then aspects. Not that you can’t have any aspect warriors, just try to keep the number down.

Every craftworld uses everything. The question is how much of each, and what they prefer to take to battle. If you like war walkers and wraiths, I might steer towards Ulthwe though. Seems more their style.

The Black Guardians and the Seer council are the most idiosincratic units of Ulthwe. The characters that are linked with them are Eldrad and Maugan-Ra, wich have close relations.

I play the Black Guardians as the Dire Avengers (in black) and I support my army with jetbikes and vehicles.

Just a quick question for those who remember - where exactly those different Craftworld rules for 3rd ed were published? Because I have my copy of 3rd ed Codex before my eyes and there is nothing like that in it. But I do remember, that there was indeed a rule that Black Guardians got +1WS/BS (I remember, because I liked Ulthwe paint scheme back in 2nd ed, but I didn't liked Guardian-centric concept of Uthwe in 3rd ed, as I played Aspect heavy army back then...)

nou wrote:
Just a quick question for those who remember - where exactly those different Craftworld rules for 3rd ed were published? Because I have my copy of 3rd ed Codex before my eyes and there is nothing like that in it. But I do remember, that there was indeed a rule that Black Guardians got +1WS/BS (I remember, because I liked Ulthwe paint scheme back in 2nd ed, but I didn't liked Guardian-centric concept of Uthwe in 3rd ed, as I played Aspect heavy army back then...)

There was a separate supplement called descriptively “Craftworld Eldar”. Basically a couple of pages of fluff, rules mods, and a unit a/o character for all the major craftworlds. Worked off of the 3rd ed codex.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Codex:_Craftworld_Eldar_(3rd_Edition)

 Nevelon wrote:

nou wrote:
Just a quick question for those who remember - where exactly those different Craftworld rules for 3rd ed were published? Because I have my copy of 3rd ed Codex before my eyes and there is nothing like that in it. But I do remember, that there was indeed a rule that Black Guardians got +1WS/BS (I remember, because I liked Ulthwe paint scheme back in 2nd ed, but I didn't liked Guardian-centric concept of Uthwe in 3rd ed, as I played Aspect heavy army back then...)

There was a separate supplement called descriptively “Craftworld Eldar”. Basically a couple of pages of fluff, rules mods, and a unit a/o character for all the major craftworlds. Worked off of the 3rd ed codex.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Codex:_Craftworld_Eldar_(3rd_Edition)

Ah, right, I completely forgot about this one - never had my own copy of it... Thanks!

Diogenes wrote:
I'm trying to decide between saim-hann and ulthwe. I like both paint schemes and I think I like the guardians more than most aspect shrines. I also really like the war walkers and I might want to incorporate wraith models at some point.

Can anybody tell me what fluffy ulthwe army would look like? I know about the black guardians. They don't currently have a representation in the rules do they? I know I'm past additions they had slightly better guardians. I also know the seer council is huge and eldrad . Anybody know what else makes an army ulthwe fluffy?

From a practical standpoint, Ulthwe black is easier to paint than Saim-Hann red. Ulthwe more easily incorporates the de rigueur Wraithknights and War Walkers.

For Ulthwe, I would field Guardian Jetbikes, and/or Black Guardians count as Dire Avengers. Fluff-wise, you'll also need some Warlocks, and a Seer Council of some sort. The rest is kinda open to taste, but you should try not to let non-Guardian (i.e Aspect / Wraith / Ranger) units dominate your Guardians on Scatbike + Black Guardians on foot + Guardian-crewed vehicles + Warlocks. Including a unit of HtH Guardians would be thematic, even if they count as Banshees, and a nice gimme when you're playing against Fluff bunnies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Table wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Remember, if they aren't paying, they don't get a say.

I find the ending of your post to be horrible advice. Rest of it is sound tho. While other players may not be buying his army, he does need to factor them into his buying. Because what good is a army that you cant play in any games?

I started 40k with Necrons. While having losing its standing in the big 4 some time ago my list was darn annoying to play against and frankly, when I switched the armies around with my friend, I HATED playing against it. [SNIP!] would you enjoy playing against your list?

As I've said multiple times, he can always play down to a soft army. Second, he's said that his meta includes Tau & SM, so he'll be able to play against the hard lists.

I have never enjoyed playing against Necrons, and it's unfortunate that we have a Necron player in our group. If he's playing, I break out the big boy toys. Otherwise, I prefer to play Guard. Not that I don't have the resources to play soft Eldar if I choose. So I don't get what you're complaining about.