Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So now that the cat is out of the bag, how are they going to marry Wrath of Magnus with the CSM supplement for Traitor Legions? I'm assuming it was indeed a typo in one of the rumors for this to be a C:SM supplement. The community site implies it's indeed for C:CSM.

They say it will include all nine Traitor Legions. That includes Thousand Sons. Being a supplement, they'd all be of faction CSM. It doesn't say anything about including new units.
The kits for the Rubrics imply the models are their own faction, so there shouldn't be any crossover. There haven't been any leaks about a TSons Codex though.

So what gives? This is pretty confusing to me.
As their own faction it seems weird they would be introduced in what is effectively a supplement. It doesn't make much sense to expand the rules of a Codex without that existing yet.
But releasing a codex later that would include all of the rules from Wrath of magnus would be equally weird. Plus, then we would have Thousand Sons and Thousand Sons-definitive edition. That would get pretty confusing. Nevermind allying them with each other.
Not being their own faction is also weird.With the traitor supplement presumably not having special units, it would pretty much need role based detachments and Wrath of magnus would effectively give csm new units and formations for those particular units. Otherwise you'd only have the Magnus formations and a normal CAD or A TSons detachment with none of the shiny new units. That seems uncharacteristic given recent releases.

...Why would the Traitor Legions be a distinct Codex from the CSM book?

And GW releases new rules for existing models with existing rules all the time. The new rules overwrite the old ones if they're explicitly used for the same book, if they aren't they continue to exist in parallel. An Inquisition Chimera, a Guard Chimera, and a Krieg Chimera are all different things with different stats, rules, and options, but they're all still Chimeras and use the same (or at least very similar) models.

Maybe I wasn't clear. I didn't mean Traitor legions would be a distinct codex. It seems TSons will be their own faction, but that would mean they would exist twice. Once as their own army and once as a detachment in CSM.

The various tastes of Chimeras are individual units. In this case though we would be representing an entire army, Thousand Sons (the army, not the unit). With different rules, released more or less simultaneously. It's like releasing a brand new Blood Raven Codex while also adding chapter tactics: Blood Ravens to the base marine book via tactics. Why would they do that?

Unless they aren't and the TSons are actually still CSM, which doesn't seem to be the case. On the other hand it could imply rites of war equivalent detachments for the base csm dex and wrath of magnus would set a precedent for how they plan to slowly introduce specialized traitor legion units.

Having them be additions to CSM in fenris part 2 makes more sense to me than introducing a new faction. Even genestealers and deathwatch got their own codex. This would the first time to introduce a faction like this wouldn't it?
Why go out of their way to release a codex for a new army and then also release a detachment for a different faction to fake the very same army?
How sure are we that TSons are actually getting a proper codex? All we've seen to imply that is the label on the box art right?

I hadn't heard anything about a supplement for 40k detailing all the Traitor Legions, it'd have to be a very big one (nine meta-detachments? Chaos doesn't have the Loyalists' advantage of three Legions having their own books and one more having distinct content in the core book) and I wouldn't expect to see it coming out so soon after Traitor's Hate. Given the models we've seen (GW has released pictures of Rubric Marines, Rubric Terminators, and 40k Tzaangors with bolt pistols and chainswords) I'm expecting something along the lines of Khorne Daemonkin where it's technically a distinct Codex but there's some overlap with existing content. Probably less overlap than there was with Khorne Daemonkin, but at the very least they'll be copy-pasting vehicle entries out of the CSM book.

The way things are going Chaos may be split up the way loyalist Marines are these days with a core book and several standalone variants (BA, DA, and Wolves for loyalists, Khorne/Tzeentch/Nurgle/Slaanesh (if he doesn't get retconned) for Chaos) with a lot of overlap in content but their own twist on it.

 Roknar wrote:
But releasing a codex later that would include all of the rules from Wrath of magnus would be equally weird.

You mean like Angels of Death..? Which reprinted part of Kaunyan as well as two old supplements.

Its likely that they'll print the 1k Sons in both so that you dont have to buy the WZ:F2 if you only want to play them in normal 40k games. Or force you to buy both if you want to play WZ:F2 scenarios...

Jack Flask wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
But releasing a codex later that would include all of the rules from Wrath of magnus would be equally weird.

You mean like Angels of Death..? Which reprinted part of Kaunyan as well as two old supplements.

Its likely that they'll print the 1k Sons in both so that you dont have to buy the WZ:F2 if you only want to play them in normal 40k games. Or force you to buy both if you want to play WZ:F2 scenarios...

You'd have to buy WZ:F2 to play WZ:F2 scenarios in the first place?

Jack Flask wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
But releasing a codex later that would include all of the rules from Wrath of magnus would be equally weird.

You mean like Angels of Death..? Which reprinted part of Kaunyan as well as two old supplements.

Its likely that they'll print the 1k Sons in both so that you dont have to buy the WZ:F2 if you only want to play them in normal 40k games. Or force you to buy both if you want to play WZ:F2 scenarios...

But this is like releasing a supplement for a faction that doesn't even have a Codex yet. Unless this is like releasing new units in a White Dwarf to bridge some time until they have kits for the remaining units in the TSons codex (if there is indeed one to come) and then releasing the codex with all the units existing on day one for a change.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I hadn't heard anything about a supplement for 40k detailing all the Traitor Legions, it'd have to be a very big one (nine meta-detachments? Chaos doesn't have the Loyalists' advantage of three Legions having their own books and one more having distinct content in the core book) and I wouldn't expect to see it coming out so soon after Traitor's Hate. Given the models we've seen (GW has released pictures of Rubric Marines, Rubric Terminators, and 40k Tzaangors with bolt pistols and chainswords) I'm expecting something along the lines of Khorne Daemonkin where it's technically a distinct Codex but there's some overlap with existing content. Probably less overlap than there was with Khorne Daemonkin, but at the very least they'll be copy-pasting vehicle entries out of the CSM book.

The way things are going Chaos may be split up the way loyalist Marines are these days with a core book and several standalone variants (BA, DA, and Wolves for loyalists, Khorne/Tzeentch/Nurgle/Slaanesh (if he doesn't get retconned) for Chaos) with a lot of overlap in content but their own twist on it.

They released this post http://www.warhammer-community.com/2016/11/19/this-december-all-is-dust-and-loads-of-new-books/ on the same day as they revealed the TSons model. It stands to reason the two are going to be released in close order.

It's 136 pages from what I understand. Here's the rumour thread for it on dakka: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/708759.page

Maybe you see my confusion now? Traitor Legions seems to be a CSM supplement (again...ugh) and Wrath Magnus introduces Thousand Sons as a new faction (to my knowledge). So both a separation like loyalists get and at the same time an expansion on the base rules of csm.

Can't wait to see the new rules but I too wonder what book (s) they will be in.
When the second nid release dropped with Tyrannocytes and their companion models a newer and better version of Zoanthropes appeared in both models and rules.

I think the rules were available in both the campaign supplement and released online so we will probably have the new rules to support the new models and old rules in the csm dex until it gets redone.

Like harlies in the Eldar dex, once they got their own dex harlies existed together for a time in both dexes. Then the new eldar dex did not include harlies.

I think wrath of magnus will update thousand sons rules and units and offer formations.
Traitor legion will offer different formations and detachments, relics etc- but use new rules.

Just a gut feeling...

Actually, the leak only talks about detachments right? No word on formations for Traitor Legions.

"...this 136-page softback supplement to Codex Space Marines are army special rules, exclusive Detachments, Warlord Traits, Tactical Objectives and Chaos Artefacts for each of the Traitor Legions..."

Angels blade, traitors hate, angels of death..they all say they include formations and detachments. If so, that would further imply role based detachments imho.
I wonder if they're going a mixed faction route for those detachments?

Perhaps each legion can mix csm and the various legion factions in each of their respective detachments?
Making the legion units mini factions that you otherwise ally in or use for kill teams. That would give them a huge amount of flexibility between the new units and forgeworld.
A bit like the purge but allowing you to mix explicitly.

We really need some actual rules leaks XD

I am thinking there will be new stuff for Legions who don't have anything, and copy/paste for the Black Legion that has stuff. I am guess that 1K Sons will have copy/paste as well from Wrath of Magnus.

If I am wrong, great. I just hope it makes people happy who have been waiting so long for this and it doesn't become invalidated next year.

Will this legions supplement invalidate the existing Black Legion supplement?

No idea yet, but my gut tells me no. Least for now.

They wrote the White Scars/Raven Guard content from the Damocles campaign book into Angels of Death, they'll probably just copy-paste the Black Legion supplement into it.

I guess that depends on whether or not it has formations. Outside of formations, I would expect them to copy the warlord traits, relics and tactical objectives, but they don't have a detachment yet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think the rumour also said something about adding army special rules. Not sure what to expect there.

I said it in the thread in N&R and I'll say it again here:

No models, no rules.

If there are no new Berzerkes or Noise Marines in their Legions book, then we're not getting new ones.

This might be different though. No models, no rules, yes, but it still works if they put the rules in separate campaign books and release the units then. That would also mean that Wrath of Magnus and Traitor Legions have different rules to a certain degree.

Somebody in the N&R thread brought up an old rumour that is starting to look solid right now. I can't remember what it said exactly, but I there was something about this being the first multi faction detachment. Which makes me all the more curious how this is going to work and how much it will break.
For one it would break the dimensional key and of course forgeworld.

I am excited to see what the section on the World Eaters is and how it compares to Daemonkin !