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Starting this thread for Nerak, who can't post a new thread for some reason :S

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Starting this thread for Nerak, who can't post a new thread for some reason :S

Omg, thanks bro. Let's get cracking then.

So here's the deal. Arha's the original striking scorpion phoenix lord. Karandras dueled him for 17days and inherited the title. Before this duel he'd developed the striking scorpion shrine to become what is today. He only started teaching it after this duel however.

This duel is where Ahra was last seen. Many have speculated that Ahra was the legendary original founder of the incubi shrine. Some suspect Ahra is now Drahzar.

This duel happened 928.M41, so 71 years ago.

So... How does this make sense? Did someone mess up the date or did Ahra throw off his disguise and face Karandras? Also, did Karandras only become a phoenix lord 71 years ago?

EDIT: I can accept Ahra being in disguise since the fall of the Eldar but I can't believe the striking Scorpion shrine is only 71 years old. According to path of the warrior the shrine has been around for a long time. The way I see it this duel should have happened in M.31. It's also possible that there's two seperate duels, both 17days long.
We know the duel ends with Karandras dissapearing and Ahra murdering his disciples. It's also stated that the outcome of the duel is unclear.
It's almost as if someone re-wrote this but got some stuff mixed up.

You are wrong about Karandras being recognized as Phoenix Lord and only teaching the Scorpion after the duel. That is not actually stated in the GW texts.

Yeah it absolutely sounds like someone messed up the dates.

Interestingly, the above story is the Craftworld version of events (including the old fluff of Ahrha 'burning with the dark light of chaos').

Below is a quote I picked up from another discussion somewhere about Ahrha:



If all that occurred in M41, that would mean that the Incubi of the Dark Eldar would only have existed for 71 years too...

A lot of that timeline stuff seems directly contradictory with what we learned in Path of the Incubus, as I recall.

I'll note that Ahra falling to Chaos isn't old fluff, either. It was mentioned by Morr in Path of the Incubus, too.

Edit: actually, Ynneadwraith just quoted the new fluff in question, so never mind.

I really wish GW had someone with a sense of scale and a timeline in charge of editing all the codices' fluff sections.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I really wish GW had someone with a sense of scale and a timeline in charge of editing all the codices' fluff sections.

GW doesn't pay enough for me to quit my day job for that.

GW also actually would have to care about being consistent and cleaning up their de facto canon, but I don't get the sense they care overly much and it seems new releases and novels are full of people trying to put their own stamp on the universe even if it means contradicting previous background.

Well, I've just dug out my eldar codex (7th ed.) and the wording of that little snippet is very interesting.

It states that in 928.M41 'Karandras duels his predecessor, Arhra, the Father of Scorpions, in the ruins of the lost craftworld of Zandros.'

There's nothing stating that that's the duel that split the Incubi and the Scorpions. Could well be a rematch...

That would be an acceptable patch over what's in all likelihood an error

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Well, I've just dug out my eldar codex (7th ed.) and the wording of that little snippet is very interesting.

It states that in 928.M41 'Karandras duels his predecessor, Arhra, the Father of Scorpions, in the ruins of the lost craftworld of Zandros.'

There's nothing stating that that's the duel that split the Incubi and the Scorpions. Could well be a rematch...

That would be an acceptable patch over what's in all likelihood an error

It was a rematch. Arhra turned against the Phoenix Lords and played a role in the destruction of Asur, and that was long before M41.

This was not GW's error, but the error of people repeatedly relying on hearsay or their own fallible memories (without going to check sources). There are numerous errors and scraps of fanfiction repeated as if GW had written it, when in fact it was some random person speculating or claiming "I remember hearing/reading somewhere I can't remember where..." If someone tries to claim something, they need to quote cite their sources specifically. Wikis don't count as they are full of errors and fan speculation masquerading as GW background.

Yeah that is quite often the case.

Do you have the source for Arhra having a part in the destruction of Asur?

From the Asurmen book that takes place during or at least very shortly after the Fall.

From the combination of the two we can ascertain at least a rough date of when it happened.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Yeah that is quite often the case.

Do you have the source for Arhra having a part in the destruction of Asur?

From the Asurmen book that takes place during or at least very shortly after the Fall.

From the combination of the two we can ascertain at least a rough date of when it happened.

I already know roughly when this happened and so do many others. It is not as if the 40K community as a whole is confused. The only uncertainty is by people in this thread operating off wrong information.

As told by the Scorpion Exarch Kenainath in Path of the Warrior:

"Arhra fell from grace, touched by the dark of Chaos, and betrayed his kin. He turned on the rest, brought daemons to the First Shrine, hungry for power. The Asurya, the first exarchs of the Path, fought against Arhra. They lost the battle, scattered to the distant stars, and Arhra escaped. He strayed from the Path, consumed by his ambition, and found new pupils. His teachings are wrong, a perversion of the Path, the Fallen Phoenix. It is a great wrong, one that we cannot forgive, the worst betrayal. Karandras hunts him, across the stars and webway, for retribution."

p. 130, Path of the Warrior novel

The planet of Asur was destroyed during the Fall and Asurmen's first incarnation ended in battle against the Chaos legions of Slaanesh.

p. 82, 2nd edition Eldar Codex.

Iracundus wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Yeah that is quite often the case.

Do you have the source for Arhra having a part in the destruction of Asur?

From the Asurmen book that takes place during or at least very shortly after the Fall.

From the combination of the two we can ascertain at least a rough date of when it happened.

I already know roughly when this happened and so do many others. It is not as if the 40K community as a whole is confused. The only uncertainty is by people in this thread operating off wrong information.

As told by the Scorpion Exarch Kenainath in Path of the Warrior:

"Arhra fell from grace, touched by the dark of Chaos, and betrayed his kin. He turned on the rest, brought daemons to the First Shrine, hungry for power. The Asurya, the first exarchs of the Path, fought against Arhra. They lost the battle, scattered to the distant stars, and Arhra escaped. He strayed from the Path, consumed by his ambition, and found new pupils. His teachings are wrong, a perversion of the Path, the Fallen Phoenix. It is a great wrong, one that we cannot forgive, the worst betrayal. Karandras hunts him, across the stars and webway, for retribution."

p. 130, Path of the Warrior novel

The planet of Asur was destroyed during the Fall and Asurmen's first incarnation ended in battle against the Chaos legions of Slaanesh.

p. 82, 2nd edition Eldar Codex.

Thanks man always useful to have direct quotes as the wording can sometimes have interesting implications.

Iracundus wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Well, I've just dug out my eldar codex (7th ed.) and the wording of that little snippet is very interesting.

It states that in 928.M41 'Karandras duels his predecessor, Arhra, the Father of Scorpions, in the ruins of the lost craftworld of Zandros.'

There's nothing stating that that's the duel that split the Incubi and the Scorpions. Could well be a rematch...

That would be an acceptable patch over what's in all likelihood an error

It was a rematch. Arhra turned against the Phoenix Lords and played a role in the destruction of Asur, and that was long before M41.

This was not GW's error, but the error of people repeatedly relying on hearsay or their own fallible memories (without going to check sources). There are numerous errors and scraps of fanfiction repeated as if GW had written it, when in fact it was some random person speculating or claiming "I remember hearing/reading somewhere I can't remember where..." If someone tries to claim something, they need to quote cite their sources specifically. Wikis don't count as they are full of errors and fan speculation masquerading as GW background.

You sure? I don't have my books on hand. It's really quite a shame I don't, because I completly agree with you that wikis as a source is only to be used as a last resort and to be viewed with skepticism at best.

However, this thing has been in the fluff since 3ed (or well, 3.5) and I'm pretty darn sure it's the last recorded sight of Ahra. Don't you find it strange that this mysterious and ancient supposed founder of the Incubi was *revealed* and fought 71years ago? Seems to me this should have happened long ago.

We can make a few assesments from this. Karandras was a phoenix lord way before this duel. Karandras and Ahra probably dueled several times in the past (since he's hunted him for some 10.000years, but no hard evidence). The Incubi shrine was formed well before this duel. Ahra must have revealed himself in some way, since It's difficult to believe he's simply been underground for 10k years with no alternate identity.

Timeline:
The fall- Ahra falls to chaos
Immediately after- Karandras duels Ahra
Immediately after- Striking scorpion shrine is formed
Sometime after the Fall-the Incubi shrine is formed
Very recently- Ahras and Karandras last duel. Both survive. Last sighting of Ahra

 Nerak wrote:

You sure? I don't have my books on hand. It's really quite a shame I don't, because I completly agree with you that wikis as a source is only to be used as a last resort and to be viewed with skepticism at best.

However, this thing has been in the fluff since 3ed (or well, 3.5) and I'm pretty darn sure it's the last recorded sight of Ahra. Don't you find it strange that this mysterious and ancient supposed founder of the Incubi was *revealed* and fought 71years ago? Seems to me this should have happened long ago.

We can make a few assesments from this. Karandras was a phoenix lord way before this duel. Karandras and Ahra probably dueled several times in the past (since he's hunted him for some 10.000years, but no hard evidence). The Incubi shrine was formed well before this duel. Ahra must have revealed himself in some way, since It's difficult to believe he's simply been underground for 10k years with no alternate identity.

Timeline:
The fall- Ahra falls to chaos
Immediately after- Karandras duels Ahra
Immediately after- Striking scorpion shrine is formed
Sometime after the Fall-the Incubi shrine is formed
Very recently- Ahras and Karandras last duel. Both survive. Last sighting of Ahra

Agreed. It's odd. Does that imply that Drazhar is Arhra (in the same way that Phoenix Lords are who they are, despite the deaths of the actual individual).

Not sure how that fits with the Dark Eldar account, given that Arhra is killed by his students (who presumably take on a portion of his soul and found the Incubi shrines).

Did Arhra survive that and return to his followers? Is Drazhar one of Arhra's students, like Karandras? Are both accounts inaccurate in-universe representations of what actually happened? Is Karandras actually one of these fragments of Arhra's soul which were embedded in his students? Was it Drazhar, Arhra himself, or another of these Arhra fragments that Karandras duelled in Zandros?