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What's everyone's opinion on Breacher Squads? Optimum size, Rites of War, attached characters to the unit, combat tactics, upgrades?
I'm more looking towards Ultramarine Legion traits, so any UM-specific RoW or the 5 point power swords as well.

Of course, any comments welcome.

Outside of Zone Mortalis they're a decent if kind of expensive Comp-Troop choice that's good for holding down key areas. I like them because they get to take a few special weapons but don't have to entirely equip them.

They really shine against a lot of dedicated CC units by taking away their charge bonus AND their extra CCW attacks.

As far as Ultras go they play very well with the Logos RoW. Not sure if taking the power swords on them is worth it but getting an extra attack at AP3 while you're being charged and negating most of their charge bonuses seems pretty mean, esp to World Eaters. If you're going to do this do it with a 20 man unit, just because of the cost efficiency of larger Breacher squads.

I love my Medusan Immortals. Take 10, slap volkite weapons on them, throw them in a land raider, and let them go kill things!

Though that's not very helpful for your UM.

Throwing them in a Proteus LR would be pretty sweet too, you get the blast away with the TL LC's then dump your guys like "come at me bro" if anything tries to smack it in CC.

Optimum size is the maximum size, 20.
They don't really need a ROW but the imperial fists stone gauntlet is super good for breachers. (+1 T for models with shields in B2B)
They benefit from an apothecary more than tacticals do IMO.
The siegebreaker with a phosphex bomb is good if you are advancing. The forge lord with rad-grenades is alright if you intend to fight in CC.
Tactically, they can sit on an objective or advance forwards. They are more survivalbe than tacticals but significantly more costly so should have a clear purpose, eg. move to an objective and then sit on it.

Void hardened armour is good if you are using those rules as it prevents things like the frag quad mortars from shredding the unit.

They are the only troops squad that natively have access to the Proteus LR.
This allows for some reserves shenanigans if you buy the upgrades for it.

In Zone Mortalis they really shine when equipped with flamers.

They can also be supported by Deredeo dreadnoughts with the atomantic pavise for +1 invunerable saves and some reliable anti-TEQ from the plasma cannonade.

DaemonJellybaby wrote:
Optimum size is the maximum size, 20.
They don't really need a ROW but the imperial fists stone gauntlet is super good for breachers. (+1 T for models with shields in B2B)
They benefit from an apothecary more than tacticals do IMO.
The siegebreaker with a phosphex bomb is good if you are advancing. The forge lord with rad-grenades is alright if you intend to fight in CC.
Tactically, they can sit on an objective or advance forwards. They are more survivalbe than tacticals but significantly more costly so should have a clear purpose, eg. move to an objective and then sit on it.

Void hardened armour is good if you are using those rules as it prevents things like the frag quad mortars from shredding the unit.

They are the only troops squad that natively have access to the Proteus LR.
This allows for some reserves shenanigans if you buy the upgrades for it.

In Zone Mortalis they really shine when equipped with flamers.

They can also be supported by Deredeo dreadnoughts with the atomantic pavise for +1 invunerable saves and some reliable anti-TEQ from the plasma cannonade.

Honestly i would reccomend them in units of ten with an apothecary, you only save 50 points over the price of a second squad and 2 squads lets you get more out of them.

I thought the optimum was 15?

 King Amroth wrote:

DaemonJellybaby wrote:
Optimum size is the maximum size, 20.
They don't really need a ROW but the imperial fists stone gauntlet is super good for breachers. (+1 T for models with shields in B2B)
They benefit from an apothecary more than tacticals do IMO.
The siegebreaker with a phosphex bomb is good if you are advancing. The forge lord with rad-grenades is alright if you intend to fight in CC.
Tactically, they can sit on an objective or advance forwards. They are more survivalbe than tacticals but significantly more costly so should have a clear purpose, eg. move to an objective and then sit on it.

Void hardened armour is good if you are using those rules as it prevents things like the frag quad mortars from shredding the unit.

They are the only troops squad that natively have access to the Proteus LR.
This allows for some reserves shenanigans if you buy the upgrades for it.

In Zone Mortalis they really shine when equipped with flamers.

They can also be supported by Deredeo dreadnoughts with the atomantic pavise for +1 invunerable saves and some reliable anti-TEQ from the plasma cannonade.

Honestly i would reccomend them in units of ten with an apothecary, you only save 50 points over the price of a second squad and 2 squads lets you get more out of them.

Just a couple of clarifications, imp fists dont need to be in b2b just 2" of two or more models from the same unit, only dw king have to be in b2b, if you take the proteus with the vox relay thingy then it's transport is reduced to 5 or 7 can't remember, but it gains scout and reserves buff, quite useful as you can still buy it even if the unit can't fit inside.

For me the optimal load out is 15 men, 3 grav guns and a pf sarge hiding in the middle for fnp denial, also melta bombs on everyone ,the new 40k faq on grenades doesnt apply to 30k to us, so we're ignoring it like the majority of other people we know.

Thanks for all feedback.
Why grav-guns specifically? Is that for the vehicle killing properties?

Wouldn't melta bombs on everyone be very expensive?

Regarding Ultramarines specifically, are the five point power swords worth it on these guys? Whole squad? Just a handful of men?

I go grav for vehicle hunting and for slowing down the enemy, -2 to charge range can get you another round of shooting or get you the charge, against cc legions it can be invaluable, if getting charged bare in mind they only lose the bonus attack, things like furious charge or the raven guard +1 I (if corax Is about ) are unaffected, defensive grenades don't work that way anymore.

 Crazyterran wrote:
I thought the optimum was 15?

in 30K, you either go 10 (min-sized for most squads) or 20. Going 15 gives you nothing. At 15, you can't use a Rhino, Drop Pod, or Land Raider for transportation. You could take a Land Raider Spartan, Storm Eagle, Kharybdis Assault Claw, Thyunderhawks, a Mastodon or a Stormbird. All of these have at least a transport capacity of 20 or more. They are also typically transports for the "Big Stuff", like Preators and Command Squads, Primarchs, and elite units that are far better then a Legion Tactical Squad. Putting a Legion Tactical Squad of only 15 models in there is a waste.

Legion Tactical Squads (LTS) are one of the few, and often times, only scoring units in a 30K army. Primarchs, RoW, and certain special characters can modify this, but usually, you are stuck with the humble LTS as the only ones with Objective Secured. At 10 models, you can give them cheap transports to get to objectives. At 15, you are looking at spending 200+ points for transportation. And you might think you'll just add your Preator or Consul to them... but that's a poor, poor choice for them. Command Squads and Veteran Squads, if not the specialized units each Legion has access to are a better choice.

At 15 LTS, you are forced to take a Morale Check when you lose 4 models. At 20, you need to lose 5. The difference there is a large amount of shots at that unit. It's even more if you add an Apothecary to the unit, which is standard ops. Five more models is only 50 more points, which is 2% of your total army points at 2500. As the squad will be either sitting on an objective or walking up the field, you want more models.

LTS sit on objectives or sit in the backfield in cover while your harder hitting units advance to kill the enemy. These guys are the second line, moving up behind your much more capable units. Once you lose all your front line fighters, they are the only thing standing between you and losing the game. Given the ease with which small squads can easily be removed in 30K, taking more models in a LTS just makes sense and adds to the durability and sustainability of the unit in the late game.

Finally, Rule of Cool states that the ultimate maneuver you can pull off in a game is with a 20 model Legion Tactical Squad making a Fury of the Legion attack. That's 80 Bolter shots at 12". And it's AWESOME

Tamwulf: Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think Crazyterran was referring to Breacher Squads. Your reply has only mentioned Tactical Squads, which have a completely different range of tactics and abilities to Breachers.

Much as I like to hear about oft-neglected Tactical Squads, that's not what is being discussed.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Tamwulf: Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think Crazyterran was referring to Breacher Squads. Your reply has only mentioned Tactical Squads, which have a completely different range of tactics and abilities to Breachers.

Much as I like to hear about oft-neglected Tactical Squads, that's not what is being discussed.

Yeah, my bad. LOL But hey, I think the same principles apply: Go min sized or full sized. 15 is just a compromise that saves you 75 points, which is 3% of your army list at 2500 points. The transportation problems remain, usually restricting your unit to 10 or fewer models.

As alluded earlier in the thread, one of the best ways to employ them is in a Land Raider Proteus or perhaps a Drop Pod. They get to a location you want to hold, jump out, and then sit there, shouting "Come at me, Bro!" They are an excellent defensive unit.

Myself, I don't like a unit that has mediocre offensive capabilities, and it's best defensive capabilities are when it's engaged in close combat. Why mediocre offensive capabilities? Because of Veteran Squads, Seeker Squads, Destroyer Squads, and Legion Specific squads. Breacher Squads can't be configured for effective close combat. They are a totally defensive unit in close combat. Boarding shields eliminate the bonus attack a unit gets for charging, but the model with the shield can never get an additional attack in close combat for two weapons. There is also the Hardened Armor Rule where these guys get -1" to run, charge, and sweeping advances. This is just my opinion and not the way I field my Sons of Horus. But I can see how they can be used effectively in the right kind of army (and not really my style).

 Tamwulf wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Tamwulf: Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think Crazyterran was referring to Breacher Squads. Your reply has only mentioned Tactical Squads, which have a completely different range of tactics and abilities to Breachers.

Much as I like to hear about oft-neglected Tactical Squads, that's not what is being discussed.

Yeah, my bad. LOL But hey, I think the same principles apply: Go min sized or full sized. 15 is just a compromise that saves you 75 points, which is 3% of your army list at 2500 points. The transportation problems remain, usually restricting your unit to 10 or fewer models.

As alluded earlier in the thread, one of the best ways to employ them is in a Land Raider Proteus or perhaps a Drop Pod. They get to a location you want to hold, jump out, and then sit there, shouting "Come at me, Bro!" They are an excellent defensive unit.

Myself, I don't like a unit that has mediocre offensive capabilities, and it's best defensive capabilities are when it's engaged in close combat. Why mediocre offensive capabilities? Because of Veteran Squads, Seeker Squads, Destroyer Squads, and Legion Specific squads. Breacher Squads can't be configured for effective close combat. They are a totally defensive unit in close combat. Boarding shields eliminate the bonus attack a unit gets for charging, but the model with the shield can never get an additional attack in close combat for two weapons. There is also the Hardened Armor Rule where these guys get -1" to run, charge, and sweeping advances. This is just my opinion and not the way I field my Sons of Horus. But I can see how they can be used effectively in the right kind of army (and not really my style).

your right, its all about those legion rules, Ironwing make my pistol, rapid fire and salvo weapons +1 to wound, so I wound most things on a 3+ and 5+ at worst, breachers as a troop choice just get me more bang for my buck than tacticals, also 1 in 5 breacher can take a power sword if memory serves, so that's a calibanite warblade for str5 goodness, makes my breachers a solid shooting option and fairly good in CC, or at least able to hold off assault marines, tacticals and other CC units (except legion specific dedicated ones)

 Formosa wrote:
your right, its all about those legion rules, Ironwing make my pistol, rapid fire and salvo weapons +1 to wound, so I wound most things on a 3+ and 5+ at worst, breachers as a troop choice just get me more bang for my buck than tacticals, also 1 in 5 breacher can take a power sword if memory serves, so that's a calibanite warblade for str5 goodness, makes my breachers a solid shooting option and fairly good in CC, or at least able to hold off assault marines, tacticals and other CC units (except legion specific dedicated ones)

Sadly, Calibanite warblades go on characters only. So the sergeant can tote one. Additional power swords will benefit from Mastery of the Blade and hit on 3's though!

I'm also putting together an Ironwing list, rolling with Breachers as troops in triple lascannon LR Proteus. Breachers are the only default compulsory troop option that can take these as dedicated transports (iirc) and they've proven rather effective for me.

Am I being dim? How do proteus take 3 lascannons?

 Formosa wrote:
Am I being dim? How do proteus take 3 lascannons?

A Proteus can take sponson mounted twin linked lascannons AND a hull mounted twin linked lascannon.

 Tamwulf wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Am I being dim? How do proteus take 3 lascannons?

A Proteus can take sponson mounted twin linked lascannons AND a hull mounted twin linked lascannon.

This. IIRC the sponson twin linked lascannons are free, but the stock model has no hull mount weapon (where the heavy bolter on a phobos sits). You can buy it several hull mount weapon options, one of which is a third twin linked lascannon. So triple las land raiders supported by Breachers will (imo) be a staple of Ironwing lists.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Am I being dim? How do proteus take 3 lascannons?

A Proteus can take sponson mounted twin linked lascannons AND a hull mounted twin linked lascannon.

This. IIRC the sponson twin linked lascannons are free, but the stock model has no hull mount weapon (where the heavy bolter on a phobos sits). You can buy it several hull mount weapon options, one of which is a third twin linked lascannon. So triple las land raiders supported by Breachers will (imo) be a staple of Ironwing lists.

Best I check that, as if it's true, I'm buying me 2 proteus and it will be your fault.....

 Formosa wrote:
Best I check that, as if it's true, I'm buying me 2 proteus and it will be your fault.....

I accept full responsibility. I recently bought (and covered in etched brass) three land raiders for my Ironwing that's coming together. Need to snag a couple razorbacks to drop the TL-LC turrets into the heavy bolter hole on the raiders and put together a couple rhinos in one fell swoop.

Other highlights for proteus - they don't have a front door and are not assault transports, but are cheaper at base cost. All things Breachers love or don't much care about.

So would you say that Proteus Breachers are the only way to go? Or are other tactics viable?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So would you say that Proteus Breachers are the only way to go? Or are other tactics viable?

For ironwing?

God no, that's the beauty of the rite, you can go

Pred heavy,or any squadron like vindactors or land raiders, b.s5 is amazing and makes plasma preds, Dakka preds and magma preds pretty horrific.

Dread heavy, fear and tank Hunter on dreads is also pretty awesome, doredo dread with any weapon option and tank Hunter is ace.

Rhino rush (which I currently run) is also very good, +1 to wound under 12" with rapid, pistol and salvo is great, it even makes rotor cannons good, they will wound almost everything on a 4+ t5 on a 5 and everything else on a 6 regardless of toughness, bolters on a 3+ and everything else on a 5+.

There are more variables but that's it in a nutshell.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So would you say that Proteus Breachers are the only way to go? Or are other tactics viable?

For specifically Dark Angels Ironwing I like Proteus Breachers. Point for point a Proteus doesn't stack up as far as anti-armor to the likes of rapiers with laser destroyers, melta support squads, melta attack bikes, outriders with melta, laser destroyer vidicators, etc etc. Breachers, likewise, I find overpriced more often than not for glorified bolter carriers (plus a couple special weapons). The durability of a boarding shield only comes fully into play in CC, and void-hardened armor only clicks against flamers or a battle cannon equivalent vs artificer sergeants. Too niche for my tastes, though T5 on Imperial Fists in the Stone Gauntlet or other specialized units like Medusan Immortals (who all can take volkite and come with stock FNP and stubborn) make them much better.

I struggle to find a purpose to Breachers in most of my lists from a competitive standpoint, though against the more assault-oriented Legions they inevitably start to shine. World Eaters and Night Lords probably hate fighting them, for example. I'd say their job is to protect a unit that doesn't want to get charged, or to exploit unique wargear options (a-la Ultramarine power swords, access to dedicated land raiders, access to special weapons per 5, breaching charges, etc).

EDIT:

 Formosa wrote:

For ironwing?

God no, that's the beauty of the rite, you can go

Pred heavy,or any squadron like vindactors or land raiders, b.s5 is amazing and makes plasma preds, Dakka preds and magma preds pretty horrific.

Dread heavy, fear and tank Hunter on dreads is also pretty awesome, doredo dread with any weapon option and tank Hunter is ace.

Rhino rush (which I currently run) is also very good, +1 to wound under 12" with rapid, pistol and salvo is great, it even makes rotor cannons good, they will wound almost everything on a 4+ t5 on a 5 and everything else on a 6 regardless of toughness, bolters on a 3+ and everything else on a 5+.

There are more variables but that's it in a nutshell.

Yeah, they aren't even the best in Ironwing. My list simply required more anti-tank and less anti-infantry. So tactical squads for compulsory is out, assault squads didn't do much for me, so it fell on Breachers. Rhino rush is probably the more effective way to do it, with dreads taking on the 2-3 non-tank available slots (HQ taking up one of his own) and predators/vindicators filling heavy.

 Tamwulf wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Tamwulf: Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think Crazyterran was referring to Breacher Squads. Your reply has only mentioned Tactical Squads, which have a completely different range of tactics and abilities to Breachers.

Much as I like to hear about oft-neglected Tactical Squads, that's not what is being discussed.

Yeah, my bad. LOL But hey, I think the same principles apply: Go min sized or full sized. 15 is just a compromise that saves you 75 points, which is 3% of your army list at 2500 points. The transportation problems remain, usually restricting your unit to 10 or fewer models.

As alluded earlier in the thread, one of the best ways to employ them is in a Land Raider Proteus or perhaps a Drop Pod. They get to a location you want to hold, jump out, and then sit there, shouting "Come at me, Bro!" They are an excellent defensive unit.

Myself, I don't like a unit that has mediocre offensive capabilities, and it's best defensive capabilities are when it's engaged in close combat. Why mediocre offensive capabilities? Because of Veteran Squads, Seeker Squads, Destroyer Squads, and Legion Specific squads. Breacher Squads can't be configured for effective close combat. They are a totally defensive unit in close combat. Boarding shields eliminate the bonus attack a unit gets for charging, but the model with the shield can never get an additional attack in close combat for two weapons. There is also the Hardened Armor Rule where these guys get -1" to run, charge, and sweeping advances. This is just my opinion and not the way I field my Sons of Horus. But I can see how they can be used effectively in the right kind of army (and not really my style).

Per the OP he's looking at running them in an Ultramarines force, which makes them significantly better in CC using their RoW to give them counter attack and power swords for +5 PPM. With decent special weapons and hidden power swords they become a pretty solid threat to a lot of 3+ armor and are compulsory troops to boot. They're still expensive compared to Legion Tac squads, but in a UM force they have their appeal.

Is the UM swapping out for power swords at 5ppm everyone, or just another option for the 1-in-5 may swap?

 Nevelon wrote:
Is the UM swapping out for power swords at 5ppm everyone, or just another option for the 1-in-5 may swap?

Anyone in the squad can do it, but it replaces the bolt gun so you have shorter range and you can't take it alongside a special weapon.

 Nevelon wrote:
Is the UM swapping out for power swords at 5ppm everyone, or just another option for the 1-in-5 may swap?

Anyone, but I can't remember if it's on a per-model basis or unit.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
Is the UM swapping out for power swords at 5ppm everyone, or just another option for the 1-in-5 may swap?

Anyone, but I can't remember if it's on a per-model basis or unit.

I believe it's per model.

I am looking at running three 10-man Breacher Squads with 1/5 Special Weapons for my Imperial Fists. I am leaning toward using Graviton Guns since they are about my only Anti-Vehicle through Haywire, and they have better range than Meltaguns (which can't crack many of the vehicles due to armored ceramite). Meltaguns can ID most Space Marines though. Plus, I actually have the models for the Meltaguns. I will be deploying them as a walking shield wall since the Stone Gauntlet makes them T5.

I will say the 10-man Breacher in a Proteus is a nice objective holder unit that can help in the AT department. Good if you go armor-heavy, as its another AV14 box to deal with.