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So I played a game not too long ago where a friend of mine made a comment on how Blood Angels could actually do some really great shooting with the right weapons, tactics and Rite of War, and that made me think about how perhaps people see my army going into games. Do they see Blood Angels as a purely melee legion and thus don't expect strong shooting support? Come to think of it I see Iron Warriors as a pure gunline legion that isn't particularly mobile, yet I'm sure an Iron Warriors player could at least make a good attempt to out-maneuver their opponent with the right list and tactics, I don't know though, it's just a thought.

So, what would you say is an assumption generally made about your legion that could serve to conceal a hidden strength in your list?

For a choppy flay-happy legion I see quite a few NL games where they've just choomed the other legion to ash.

how amazing DG end up being in close combat with our rad grenades and scythes. That or the fact that its arguable that 2 of the best units in the heresy are DG (Deathshroud and Grave Warden, ruling out certain robot shenanigans, of course )

Iron Warriors can do a nasty airforce.
Perturabo's relentless strategist rule allows reserve rolls from turn one - allowing Iron Warriors to make very effective use of the "everyone in storm eagles" rite of war and field a pure gunship army....

Raven Guard in CC. Fleet makes them awesome.

Imperial Fists tactical squads.

"It's just bolters."

No, it's 20 bolters firing 40 shots as BS5 against infantry and even some Monstrous Creatures and weirdo Mechanicum fethers. Add in an apothecary for FNP. Add in the occasional Fury of the Legion.

"Get off my land!"

 EmberlordofFire8 wrote:
Raven Guard in CC. Fleet makes them awesome.

RG seem great at a LOT of things with just their LA:RG rules. You can infiltrate... almost everything with feet?!

Assault squads are crazy with infiltrate+fleet+furious charge, granted, but Tac squads with infiltrate alone are also pretty nuts. Get up and FotL T1 on people. Same with Seekers getting into range with their S5 AP2 shots right away.

Too bad you can't infiltrate those Cataphractii with their FC...

 More Dakka wrote:

 EmberlordofFire8 wrote:
Raven Guard in CC. Fleet makes them awesome.

Assault squads are crazy with infiltrate+fleet+furious charge, granted, but Tac squads with infiltrate alone are also pretty nuts. Get up and FotL T1 on people. Same with Seekers getting into range with their S5 AP2 shots right away.

Do the Assault Squads end up with all of that though? I've seen a few people arguing over it.

Jump infantry have the infantry rule, so I am leaning towards yes, but don't want to get into a discussion about it outside YMDC.

 kronk wrote:
Imperial Fists tactical squads.

"It's just bolters."

No, it's 20 bolters firing 40 shots as BS5 against infantry and even some Monstrous Creatures and weirdo Mechanicum fethers. Add in an apothecary for FNP. Add in the occasional Fury of the Legion.

"Get off my land!"

While not many expect quite the devastation of Fury of The Legion from Imperial Fist Tacticals, they are generally aware of how they are so much more potent than other legions. I'd say one thing people generally don't expect from Imperial Fists is how good they can be in Close Combat. Properly equipped Templar Brethren with a Legion Champion, Polux or Sigismund is a really killer that nobody honestly thinks about because 'Imperial Fists are just about Bolters'.

Fotl is unique to tactical squads

The Fact that they can be EVERY Legion...

I'm still hunting for that special something that Sons of Horus unexpectedly have.

I'd like to say Justaerin's two wound Terminators.... but they are Terminators that cost 25% more than regular Terminators. Multimelta's FTW! But... Objective Secured. Eh. No Overwatch, no runs, no sweeping advance... ummm.... 4++!

I'd like to say Reaver Attack Squads... until I read the Veteran Tactical Squad entry. But hey! I get chainaxes! Rule of Cool! Oh wait. All models with chainswords in World Eaters can take a chainaxe. Precision shots/strikes... has anyone really ever figured out how that works, or even bother with it? Shots require range and line of sight to the model you are trying to precision shoot.. Strikes require that the model performing the strike is engaged with the model he is trying to precision strike! Do you really roll one die at a time for each model so you can Precision Shoot/Strike? Waste of time. Especially when a character can "Look Out, Sir!" the wound.

I loved the Anvilius Pattern Drop Pod, and how I get it at a 15 point discount and can even take it as a dedicated transport! Until it was pointed out to me that it DOES NOT have an Inertial Guidance System. I loved losing my 500 point unit Justaerin and Anvilius Drop Pod to a Deepstrike Mishap.

+1 BS when shooting assault, pistols and rapid fire weapons at less then 12"! But it doesn't apply to "special" shooting... Bane Strike Rounds! Umm... +5 pts/model to get AP 3 when I roll a 6 to wound???

Merciless Fighters is great! If you can get into close combat and outnumber your opponent...

Even the Rites of War for Sons of Horus feel so anemic compared to everyone else!

Horus himself is a great beatstick, but he's not the best in close combat, nor is he the best at buffing his army. He does have the distinction of being the most expensive Primarch though!

Good access to Reserve rerolls or mods, and some Outflank. No great units to capitalize on it.

I dare say... the Sons of Horus are to 30K what the Ultramarines are to 40K! Mind you, I'm just . I just wish I could put a unit on the table that would strike a little fear into my opponent, instead of "No, that's just a plain Breacher Squad. +1 to my BS when I shoot something within 12". No, it doesn't apply to Overwatch." or "Yeah, they are two wounds, and nothing else."

Anyone got any ideas?

 TheManWithNoPlan wrote:
I'd say one thing people generally don't expect from Imperial Fists is how good they can be in Close Combat. Properly equipped Templar Brethren with a Legion Champion, Polux or Sigismund is a really killer that nobody honestly thinks about because 'Imperial Fists are just about Bolters'.

Oh, I certainly agree with that. My tournament list has 6-7 Templar Brethren with 1 power gauntlet, all combat shields, jumping out of a land raider with an attached centurion. It does a number on other close combat units when I get the charge off. Add a Primus Medicae for even more survival.

Shame they can't take apothecaries.

 Tamwulf wrote:
Anyone got any ideas?

Maybe stop complaining about stuff that's actually good, like Justaerin, Reavers, and your rites?

Just looking at Justaerin, I struggle to see how the extra points you pay aren't worth +1 WS, +1 W, +1 Ld, Stubborn, and Furious Charge. With the Black Reaving rite, they gain Deep Strike for free also. That is...hardly bad?

And Anvillus pattern get internal guidance now. It was updated in the current army list book.

I think there are plenty of people who would put SoH in the upper tier...at least as far as the 'tiers' go for 30K.

 Tamwulf wrote:
Horus himself is a great beatstick, but he's not the best in close combat, nor is he the best at buffing his army. He does have the distinction of being the most expensive Primarch though!

I'm sorry, what? Last I checked, Horus was one of, if not the best cc primarchs.

Side note, this is pretty useful for someone like me who's trying to get into HH, but hasn't decided on a legion yet.
From what I know, the SoH legion is pretty powerful overall. Horus is singlehandedly, the most powerful primarch in the game, and their Justaerins are really good.

 gorgon wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:
Anyone got any ideas?

Maybe stop complaining about stuff that's actually good, like Justaerin, Reavers, and your rites?

Just looking at Justaerin, I struggle to see how the extra points you pay aren't worth +1 WS, +1 W, +1 Ld, Stubborn, and Furious Charge. With the Black Reaving rite, they gain Deep Strike for free also. That is...hardly bad?

And Anvillus pattern get internal guidance now. It was updated in the current army list book.

I think there are plenty of people who would put SoH in the upper tier...at least as far as the 'tiers' go for 30K.

Justaerin Terminators: 2 wounds means squat when you face T-Hammers, Storm Shields, and P-fists unless you want to spend even more points on the unit to make them better. The RoW that makes them Deep Striking isn't even close to what other RoW out there. Need to take more FA then HS, must take one more compulsory troop choice, and models that come in from reserve, but not Deep Strike, get fleet for that turn. Oh, and Reavers can be taken as Troops choices, but not compulsory troops choices. Yeah, that's great. And if you give these guys T-hammers/P-fists, they don't benefit from Merciless Fighters, because that occurs at initiative step 1 and ONLY applies to those models that have already attacked.

When/where and do you have a link to the Anvilius getting internal guidance now? Because I have the latest red book (just got it three days ago from Forge World), and I looked at the FAQ and saw nothing. The Anvilius in the Sons of Horus entry is different from the Legion entry.

How are Reavers better then a Veteran Squad? Vet's are cheaper, have more options, come standard with more wargear... the only thing they don't have is Outflank and Precision Shots/Strikes (a laughable rule at best).

I said Horus was a beatstick, but other Primarchs are better in close combat. I don't think he is worth 500 points.

I'd love to meet these people that say SoH are top tier, because I regularly get my kicked. Queue the "L2P, Noob!" It's not how I play or what I have in my list. SoH can't compete with Legions that can leverage special rules and equipment far better then SoH. SoH can do a little bit of everything well enough, but they don't excel or specialize in any one area like other Legions. If you count that as being their strength, then yeah, they are the most powerful Legion in 30K. The unexpected strength of my legion is it's utter mediocrity on the table.

Anyone playing HH for competitive WAC tournament style play is doing it wrong.

Sons of Horus may not excel at anything in particular, but they are decent at close quarters fighting. They take a bit more to use properly and I'm fine with that. It makes them interesting to use.

 Tamwulf wrote:

I said Horus was a beatstick, but other Primarchs are better in close combat. I don't think he is worth 500 points.

Which Primarchs can take Horus in a fight?

Angron with some lucky rolling, or if Horus has already taken a wound or two.

So discounting luck and assuming Horus is not damaged, none?

Nope. Statistically he wins every time.

 Tamwulf wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:
Anyone got any ideas?

Maybe stop complaining about stuff that's actually good, like Justaerin, Reavers, and your rites?

Just looking at Justaerin, I struggle to see how the extra points you pay aren't worth +1 WS, +1 W, +1 Ld, Stubborn, and Furious Charge. With the Black Reaving rite, they gain Deep Strike for free also. That is...hardly bad?

And Anvillus pattern get internal guidance now. It was updated in the current army list book.

I think there are plenty of people who would put SoH in the upper tier...at least as far as the 'tiers' go for 30K.

Justaerin Terminators: 2 wounds means squat when you face T-Hammers, Storm Shields, and P-fists unless you want to spend even more points on the unit to make them better. The RoW that makes them Deep Striking isn't even close to what other RoW out there. Need to take more FA then HS, must take one more compulsory troop choice, and models that come in from reserve, but not Deep Strike, get fleet for that turn. Oh, and Reavers can be taken as Troops choices, but not compulsory troops choices. Yeah, that's great. And if you give these guys T-hammers/P-fists, they don't benefit from Merciless Fighters, because that occurs at initiative step 1 and ONLY applies to those models that have already attacked.

When/where and do you have a link to the Anvilius getting internal guidance now? Because I have the latest red book (just got it three days ago from Forge World), and I looked at the FAQ and saw nothing. The Anvilius in the Sons of Horus entry is different from the Legion entry.

How are Reavers better then a Veteran Squad? Vet's are cheaper, have more options, come standard with more wargear... the only thing they don't have is Outflank and Precision Shots/Strikes (a laughable rule at best).

I said Horus was a beatstick, but other Primarchs are better in close combat. I don't think he is worth 500 points.

I think you're maniacally focused on weaknesses and ignoring strengths. Two wound Terminators are pretty damn great...I run Red Butchers regularly and can attest to that. The obvious key is not slamming them into stuff festooned with S8 AP2. And among Legion special units, Reavers are a good one. I'll trade you my Rampagers for your Reavers in a heartbeat. Deal? It takes some real gyrations to turn their ability to be fielded as Troops into a weakness. It allows you to still field Vets or whatever else you want in Elites (generally a more crowded category), without competing for slots with Reavers. And chainaxes are tremendous now.

There are many more Rites worse than Black Reaving. And SoH get easily the best Primarch in the game...I don't know why you're fixated on the fact that he's 50 or 100 points more than others. Horus is just better...that's why he costs more.

Regarding the Anvillus...fine, we're in need of some clarification. Internal guidance was added to the unit's rules box in the latest Army List book (I'm looking right at the electronic version now), but it's not under its special rules. Seems clear enough that they wanted to add it, but just forgot to include it in the left column. An errata is needed for that and whether the changes (which are more recent than the Legions book) translate over to the SoH dedicated transport version. Y'know, the dedicated transport version that only SoH receive.

All Legions have their strengths and weakness, and have very few point-and-click game winners.

 Tamwulf wrote:

I'd like to say Reaver Attack Squads... until I read the Veteran Tactical Squad entry. But hey! I get chainaxes! Rule of Cool! Oh wait. All models with chainswords in World Eaters can take a chainaxe. Precision shots/strikes... has anyone really ever figured out how that works, or even bother with it? Shots require range and line of sight to the model you are trying to precision shoot.. Strikes require that the model performing the strike is engaged with the model he is trying to precision strike! Do you really roll one die at a time for each model so you can Precision Shoot/Strike? Waste of time. Especially when a character can "Look Out, Sir!" the wound.

Remember, taking Jump Packs on the Reavers makes it so each model counts as two for the purposes of Merciless Fighters, and the Chain Axes mean they would on 3+ and get to blanket their foe in attacks. I think you end up with something like 4 Attacks on the Charge and then an additional 1 attack at I1. Plus with Death Dealers they are BS5 with their Pistols or Volkite Chargers (and really you should have the Chargers).

Jump Pack Reavers look awesome and they're ppm is not bad with just chain axes, volkite would make them REALLY expensive.

Seems like you'd need to take 2 units of them and have some other fast units to keep the pressure off them, like Jetbikes or drop-podding dreadnoughts, deepstriking Justaerin things like that.

I'll admit that SoH have always been considered one of the more challenging legions to play, even back when there was only 4 legions available.

Death Guard Orbital Assault.

Grave Wardens are hilarious dropping on top the enemy lines. The ultimate "come at me bro" unit delivered straight to the enemy's doorstep.

Deathshroud synergize well as well with shredding hand flamers and their scythes.

Then there is the sweet chem munition flamer/heavy flamer squads.

Raven Guard is good but not the best at CC. Their dark fries and Corax are some of the shining stars when both are locked in combat together. The 5pt. Upgrade for one of 2 Raven talons is just amazing. Paying 5 points for master crafted and rending, count me in. But, If you don't have the primarch, it is easy to convert Kurtha Sedd into Kaedes Nex, arguably one of the best moritats. He doesn't get plasma pistols but he does get the Fulcrum Cannon, which he can use in CC.

Celestialpainting wrote:
Raven Guard is good but not the best at CC. Their dark fries and Corax are some of the shining stars when both are locked in combat together. The 5pt. Upgrade for one of 2 Raven talons is just amazing. Paying 5 points for master crafted and rending, count me in.

Its 10pts for a Single or Double Claw, not 5 for a single.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

Celestialpainting wrote:
Raven Guard is good but not the best at CC. Their dark fries and Corax are some of the shining stars when both are locked in combat together. The 5pt. Upgrade for one of 2 Raven talons is just amazing. Paying 5 points for master crafted and rending, count me in.

Its 10pts for a Single or Double Claw, not 5 for a single.

And you can't upgrade dark furies anyway, they already got the claws .... for free ☺