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I'm pretty easy to please when it comes to 40k playstyles, but I've started to grow tired of having to plan lists around hunting down multiple knights, dealing with super friends allies, or simply having half a dozen different books being used as part of a single army. So it got me thinking. With all the complaints that pop up about the complexities of army composition, the imbalance of certain formations and allies, and the difficulty with which players manage to finish tournament games in time, what exactly would an "oldhammer" style of tournament look like? For instance, what shifts in the meta would result from the following restrictions, and would those shifts in the meta be preferable to more conventional tournament styles that are prevalent today? Here's what I had in mind:

* Armies are built with a single CAD from a single codex.
* Games are played at 1500 points.

Pros:
* List construction is easier
* Not having access to multiple detachments/formations means you might have to dust off a couple of units you haven't used in a while instead of spamming extras of unit X.
* Problematic formations aren't around to be, er, problematic.
* Smaller points (compared to 1850 events) means games play faster, and you're forced to either make a well-rounded force or accept built-in weaknesses rather than maxing out on all your best units with points to spare.
* No ally shenanigans.

Cons:
*Some armies (tyranids as an example) depend upon multiple detachments or access to formations to be competitive while other armies (eldar) have enough good options in every force org slot to not be too worried about such things.
*Some armies (knights, harlequins, skitarii, etc.) literally cannot take a CAD.
*Smaller points means you're less likely to have the tools you need to deal with hard-to-counter units.


Thoughts?

Wyldhunt wrote:
* Armies are built with a single CAD from a single codex.

I like the idea, but the game has evolved past the point where Force Org comp is enough to bring back "Oldhammer". You'd need to retool the Codexes to function under such rules, or you're just handing the field to Scatbike Eldar.

A lot of armies are made nonfunctional by a CAD-only/no-Allies restriction; you'd be effectively banning Harlequins, Grey Knights, the Inquisition, and Skitarii, and heavily neutering Blood Angels, Deathwatch, Genestealer Cults, and Guard. You'd be nerfing a lot of armies that really, really don't need the hit to take SM and Necrons down a peg, and all you'd do is clear the competitive field such that it's just Eldar in the winner's bracket.

I sympathize with the desire to return to a simpler one Codex/one detachment era, but unless pretty much every Codex gets an overhaul to work that way it's a terrible one-sentence change.

 BBAP wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
* Armies are built with a single CAD from a single codex.

I like the idea, but the game has evolved past the point where Force Org comp is enough to bring back "Oldhammer". You'd need to retool the Codexes to function under such rules, or you're just handing the field to Scatbike Eldar.

I'd considered that. Scatbikes are certainly still brutal, but I was under the impression people had found ways to mitigate their effectiveness somewhat at this point. Void shields to take the teeth off their first few salvos, barrage weapons to hit them when they hide behind terrain, drop pods to sucker punch them before they can shoot at you, etc. Would many armies lose access to whatever tools they're using these days to counteract jetbikes? Or is the point more that competitive eldar lists still basically work in a CAD meaning their power level would be largely unchanged while other books might go down in power level?

I don't think GSC would work at all under a "single CAD" comp system. You'd have, what, 5 slots for your infantry plus 3 FA slots for Sentinels/ Goliaths/ Chimeras and Heavy Support for Russes and/or Rockgrinders. There's no way that I can see to build anything functional out of that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wyldhunt wrote:
I'd considered that. Scatbikes are certainly still brutal, but I was under the impression people had found ways to mitigate their effectiveness somewhat at this point. Void shields to take the teeth off their first few salvos,

... right, so we're restricting the Formations people can use but we're still allowing Bring Your Own Terrain?

Would many armies lose access to whatever tools they're using these days to counteract jetbikes? Or is the point more that competitive eldar lists still basically work in a CAD meaning their power level would be largely unchanged while other books might go down in power level?

I think it's the latter. Speaking from a GSC perspective, I'd be utterly crippled against Scatbikes in a single CAD environment. The only barrage weapons my Codex gets are Mortars in Neophyte Weapons Teams, which are worse than useless since they prevent me taking useful Heavies like Seismic Cannons (and I'm not sure how useful barrages would be here anyway). I can chase the Bikes thanks to Cult Ambush, but without the SubUp or Insurrection bonuses I doubt I could take them out before they flew off and tore me to shreds.

Not only that, but I lose the ability to carousel large volumes of MSU units in and out of Ongoing Reserve, which is the army's schtick. That's the thing they're built around, and I just can't do it anymore. All I'm left with is mech GSC, which sucks, because my dudes are all fragile as feth and my vehicles are poor at best.

EDIT: I also lose a lot of my psykan' power. I'm stuck with a 4 dice maximum to try and Summon, Hypnotise, Mind Control, etc.

Wyldhunt wrote:
...Would many armies lose access to whatever tools they're using these days to counteract jetbikes? Or is the point more that competitive eldar lists still basically work in a CAD meaning their power level would be largely unchanged while other books might go down in power level?

It's much more that competitive Eldar and Daemon lists still work in a CAD while you're nerfing a lot of other armies around them.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
A lot of armies are made nonfunctional by a CAD-only/no-Allies restriction; you'd be effectively banning Harlequins, Grey Knights, the Inquisition, and Skitarii, and heavily neutering Blood Angels, Deathwatch, Genestealer Cults, and Guard. You'd be nerfing a lot of armies that really, really don't need the hit to take SM and Necrons down a peg, and all you'd do is clear the competitive field such that it's just Eldar in the winner's bracket.

I sympathize with the desire to return to a simpler one Codex/one detachment era, but unless pretty much every Codex gets an overhaul to work that way it's a terrible one-sentence change.

If I were to actually implement something similar to my opening post's suggestion for a tournament, I would probably find some sort of simple compromise to make harlies, skitarii, etc. (but probably not imperial knights) playable using "CAD-like" detachments or something. For now, I'm curious as to what sort of high-level problems would be likely to result from an "oldhammer" playstyle. So it's not so much that I'm advocating making those factions entirely unplayable. It's more that I'm focusing on the impact it would have on other armies for now. If that makes sense. It's late and I may not be very eloquent right now.

Good points regarding armies dependent on formations to be relatively effective. In case it wasn't clear, this is less about "taking SM and Necrons down a peg." I suppose what I would sort of hope to see out of the proposed tournament format isn't so much an improvement in overall balance (it would introduce new problems of its own even if it fixed other problems). What I'd kind of hope to see is a series of competitive lists that don't rely on the same handful of tricks that tend to win tournaments these days.

Less imperial knights hanging out with super friends. More finding the optimal build within a given codex without formations/detachments.

I hope I don't sound like I"m trying to defend my opening post here. I'm genuinely curious about what sort of shift you think we'd see in the meta under such a system and discussing whether or not that shift in the meta would be preferable or at least a refreshing change of pace. Eldar would be common and problematic, but that's already true now. Would the proposed format make other armies significantly less common as a result? Would a lack of flyrant spam, for instance, make tyranids unplayable, or would the enemy's lack of access to special formations, multiple detachments, allies, etc. make a mono-CAD tyranid list more feasible?

Two problems:

1) Without formations or special detachments most of the old FOC swap options are no longer valid. So there are a lot of themed armies that are fine balance-wise but don't work under a CAD-only rule.

2) At 1500 points with no unit restrictions things like powerful LOW/death stars/etc start to become a problem. These units now make up a much higher percentage of your army, so it's more likely that the game will come down to a binary "do I have enough of the counter to stop this" question with very little strategy by either player. So you probably need some kind of cap on the maximum percentage of your point total that a single unit can be, or a minimum number of units per army, or some other kind of "no excessive death stars" rule.

Wyldhunt wrote:
...Less imperial knights hanging out with super friends. More finding the optimal build within a given codex without formations/detachments...

If these are your goals no-Allies/CAD-only is a pretty scorched-earth approach to doing so. Cap superheavies per points level and IK aren't as much of an issue. Scrap/rewrite Invisibility and the prime Superfriends enabler/motivator goes down the drain. And alter the problematic formation benefits (Gladius free transports, Warpflame Host +S to everything, Librarius cast on 2+ off the top of my head, I suspect someone will bring up more) directly and you can excise formation mono-builds from the game without hacking off options

As for volume of books needed to play that's not going to go away until GW starts just updating books instead of releasing needed changes as supplements that require the original book; with supplement proliferation (a CSM army that's technically single-Codex could be using five books these days (main Codex, WoM, Traitor's Hate, a subfaction supplement (Traitor Legions, Crimson Slaughter), and IA13)) saying 'Codex only' would just cripple old armies.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Less imperial knights hanging out with super friends. More finding the optimal build within a given codex without formations/detachments.

That's the problem though. The game has evolved past the point where army lists are built upon units. Genestealer Cults are the most egregious example I can think of because they just don't work at all as an army without access to their formation bonuses. Nobody would play them at all. I think Space Marines would also struggle quite hard in such an environment, so you'd probably see less and less of them over time too. Then there's stuff like AdMech who have really poor units in one slot (Electropriests) and no units at all in another (Fast Attack) who are heavily gimped in a CAD comp - Skitarii couldn't take part at all because they have no HQ units so can't make a legal CAD.

Honestly, I think if you want more variety in your tournament meta, you need to find other ways of handicapping that don't involve dumping Formations.

If you go with that, that could work, but you'll have to ban Eldar and Tau from the get-go.

 Traditio wrote:
If you go with that, that could work, but you'll have to ban Eldar and Tau from the get-go.

No. Obviously. That's the answer to all our problems. Take the proposal that's already going to hard-ban four books and soft-ban four more, and ban a couple more on top of it. And then ban Daemons since they're the ones who are going to win everything with those changes. Let's keep banning Codexes until only Traditio is left playing. Best plan ever.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Let's keep banning Codexes until only Traditio is left playing. Best plan ever.

So what you're saying is that Traditio is a WAAC player whose goal is to ban everyone until he wins everything by default?

 Peregrine wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Let's keep banning Codexes until only Traditio is left playing. Best plan ever.

So what you're saying is that Traditio is a WAAC player whose goal is to ban everyone until he wins everything by default?

Was there ever a doubt?

 Peregrine wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Let's keep banning Codexes until only Traditio is left playing. Best plan ever.

So what you're saying is that Traditio is a WAAC player whose goal is to ban everyone until he wins everything by default?

No, he's saying that the approach of "ban the problem books" is a rather horrible way of fixing things.

 Jaxler wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Let's keep banning Codexes until only Traditio is left playing. Best plan ever.

So what you're saying is that Traditio is a WAAC player whose goal is to ban everyone until he wins everything by default?

No, he's saying that the approach of "ban the problem books" is a rather horrible way of fixing things.

That too. Bonus points to Jaxler for finding a charitable interpretation that directs us back to the topic at hand.

This proposal doesn't achieve it's stated objective.

It only mildly hampers some of the most objected to armies (riptide and stormsurge spam, scatbike and wraithknight spam, gravbike spam)

It still lets people take a titan, etc.

It still allows people to build armies that require a pile of books (without thinking about that overly much I could take a marine army that require codex + angels of death (for contemptor) + death from the skies (for stormhawk) + imperial armour 2 + planetary onslaught + whatever book my lord of war is in.

It also doesn't really help balance because the armies with strong versatile troops will have the advantage. The worst off armies will be the same ones that are worst off already.

How are you going to fit a Titan into a 1500 point CAD?

 Traditio wrote:
How are you going to fit a Titan into a 1500 point CAD?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How are you going to fit a Titan into a 1500 point CAD?

How can you not?

 Traditio wrote:
How are you going to fit a Titan into a 1500 point CAD?

Ethereal: 50 points.
Fire warriors: 45 points.
Fire warriors: 45 points.
Taunar supremacy armor: 600 points.

Look at that, I've 10 points to spare in a 750 point list.

and at 1500 points I do this

Ethereal: 50 points.
Fire warriors: 45 points.
Fire warriors: 45 points.
Riptide with ion and EWO: 225 points
Riptide with ion and EWO: 225 points
Riptide with ion and EWO: 225 points
Taunar supremacy armor: 600 points.

also, at 1500 I can do this

Ethereal: 50 points.
Fire warriors: 45 points.
Fire warriors: 45 points.
Riptide with ion fnp and EWO: 225 points
Riptide with ion fnp and EWO: 225 points
Riptide with ion fnp and EWO: 225 points
Y'varha riptide with fnp and EWO: 270
R'varna riptide with FNP: 295
5 pathfinders: 55
5 pathfinders: 55
10 points left. Probably should make the ethereal a cadre fire blade so it doesn't give a VP, but w/e.

Look at these nice balanced fluffy lists the CAD and 1500 point limit has forced upon us. Tau certainly have been knocked down a peg.

Jaxler:

I said in my initial post in this thread that tau and eldar need to be banned outright.

How would you fit a titan of the Imperium into a 1500 point list which must be:

1. a single CAD
2. from a single codex?

 Traditio wrote:
Jaxler:

I said in my initial post in this thread that tau and eldar need to be banned outright.

How would you fit a titan of the Imperium into a 1500 point list which must be:

1. a single CAD
2. from a single codex?

Tyranids

flyrant with dakka dakka: 230 points
termagant brood: 40 points
termagant brood: 40 points
hierophant Bio titan: 1000 points

you've points to spare.

Orks

Big mek: 30 points
boyz: 60 points
boyz: 60 points
Stompa: 770 points.

This one comes in at below 1000 points.

Guard

company command squad: 60 points
Veterans: 60 points
Veterans: 60 points
Warhound titan: 720 points.

This one is 900 points on the dot.

Necrons
lord: 50
immortals: 85
immortals: 85
tesseract vault: 550

This one is less than 800 points.

I'm also fairly certain you can fit maggy the red in at below 1500 points with a bare bones CAD, but I've not the newest stuff, so I won't make assumptions. I hope I answered your question here though. This CAD+1500 single codex doesn't really do anything besides make it so people can't run inquisition/skitarri/imperial knight armies and hurts a lot of the worse off armies that got bandaid fixes via formations.

Hell even your beloved marines would do great. Just look at what I could bring with a CAD:


White scars army.

HQ

Kor'sarro Khan on bike.

Libarian with the eye of vengeance and rolling telepathy.

A drop pod.

A unit of grav-centurions.

Fill the rest of points in troops and FA with all flavors of bikes, preferably those with grav-guns.

1500pts or as closer as that monster gets.

More simple solution to superheavies and other such nonsense.

Organise a Zone Mortalis tournament.

You can scrap all of the random death rules and other such stuff, but keep the tight terrain and the 'only infantry and walkers' rules.

Would probably still need to homebrew Invisibility, and it would still come with a host of other issues, but it might help somewhat with Riptide/Wraithknight spam...

How about a simple restriction of 1 superheavy per army?

 Traditio wrote:
I said in my initial post in this thread that tau and eldar need to be banned outright.

Yes, we know you have a ridiculous obsession with banning entire armies because a handful of units are overpowered (or, more accurately, because of your weird belief that Tau and Eldar players are all WAAC TFGs). Simply repeating this idea over and over again doesn't make your idea reasonable, nor does it offer any kind of constructive suggestion for how to make 1500 point CAD-only games work well.

How would you fit a titan of the Imperium into a 1500 point list which must be:

1. a single CAD
2. from a single codex?

Easily. A D-spam Warhound is only 750 points, that leaves half a 1500 point list free for whatever other "cheese" you can come up with. The fact that you think this is a difficult thing to do pretty clearly establishes that you have no clue how the LoW you frequently complain about work.

 Jaxler wrote:
...I'm also fairly certain you can fit maggy the red in at below 1500 points with a bare bones CAD...

Oh, absolutely. Naked sorcerer (65), 2x Cultists (100), Magnus (650) weighs in at 815pts. I'm also in favour of a Brass Scorpion in the LoW slot, which would make the minimum CAD only 615pts.

The only Titans you can't fit into a 1,500pt CAD are the Reaver, Imperator, and Phantom, since they're all over 1,500pts on their own.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
You can scrap all of the random death rules and other such stuff, but keep the tight terrain and the 'only infantry and walkers' rules.

Removing vehicles entirely is not a solution. Tanks are part of normal 40k, and should be allowed in 1500 point games.

How about a simple restriction of 1 superheavy per army?

This accomplishes very little because most LoW can't be taken in squadrons. A Baneblade-class LoW is going to be a tough (though not impossible) threat to deal with in a 1500 point game, while a titan-class LoW breaks a 1500 point game pretty thoroughly.


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 AnomanderRake wrote:
The only Titans you can't fit into a 1,500pt CAD are the Reaver, Imperator, and Phantom, since they're all over 1,500pts on their own.

Technically the Reaver is under 1500 points, you just can't quite fit a whole CAD with it and still be under 1500 points. IIRC it's 1450 points?

 Peregrine wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The only Titans you can't fit into a 1,500pt CAD are the Reaver, Imperator, and Phantom, since they're all over 1,500pts on their own.

Technically the Reaver is under 1500 points, you just can't quite fit a whole CAD with it and still be under 1500 points. IIRC it's 1450 points?

Just double-checked and this is true; I thought it was 1,600-ish for some reason. Not sure where the current 40k printing is but the printing in HH5 is 1,475pts base (so yes, only technically under 1,500).

How would you fit a titan of the Imperium into a 1500 point list which must be:

1. a single CAD
2. from a single codex?

Could you? Which codex has titans in it?
I can't recall a single codex that would qualify beyond Imperial Knights. I'm not sure how that codex can or can't fill a CAD at 1500 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Attached comment.
I'm asking about Imperial armies.

 Traditio wrote:
I said in my initial post in this thread that tau and eldar need to be banned outright.

Ban some armies, make the units overcosted garbage, wonder why nobody takes you seriously.

How would you fit a titan of the Imperium into a 1500 point list which must be:

1. a single CAD
2. from a single codex?

Dunno, but I could probably fit a Baneblade in at 1500pts pretty comfortably. Two Wraithknights as well. Two Imperial Knights wouldn't be much of a drama either, and a Stormsurge would probably shine pretty brightly at that points level.