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Poll
Which Primarch?
The Lion
Fulgrim
Pertuarbo
Khan
Russ
Dorn
Curze
Sanguinius
Ferrus Manus
Angron
Guilliman
Death Guard
Magnus the Red
Lorgar
Vulkan
Corax
Alpharius

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Made in gb
Annoyed Blood Angel Devastator




Wales

In the heresy, which primarch could have turned the tide the other way? If Sanguinius had sided with Horus would they have been triumphant? Had Pertuarbo been loyalist and fought alongside Dorn and his Imperial Fists, would they have defeated the traitors with ease as the masters of siege warfare? We are of course talking both primarch and legion here. Obviously excluding Horus from this xD For the sake of argument, just assume that Horus would have fallen to chaos with or without Lorgar's interference.

"For the love of Baal!" - Captain Zedrenael of the 8th Company before declaring a charge against Kharn and his Bezerkers. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I vote Guiliman, the only reason he was unable to stop Horus cause Horus sent him to the other side of the galaxy, but if Horus could have got him and his marines to follow Horus then it would have been game over.

Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project. 
   
Made in gb
Annoyed Blood Angel Devastator




Wales

I would say either Guilliman for the sheer size of the Ultramarines legion and because Horus lamented he had no generals or strategists at his side. Or Sanguinius, because it was his death that caused the Blood Angels on Terra to fall to the Black Rage and almost singlehandedly drive the traitors from Terra. If Sanguinius had been a Heretic, this wouldn't have happened and perhaps the Traitors may have won.

"For the love of Baal!" - Captain Zedrenael of the 8th Company before declaring a charge against Kharn and his Bezerkers. 
   
Made in no
Resentful Grot With a Plan





Dorn. He could have done a lot of damage to the defence of Terra and without the Fists holding the walls the palace would have fallen.
   
Made in gb
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

For the loyalists: Dorn of course! He was maintaining the defences on Terra, if he had turned then Terra would have fallen with far less trouble.

For the Heretics: I'm gonna say Fulgrim. He would have been able to warn the loyalist legions about the treachery and the dropsite massacre may have been prevented, certainly the Iron Hands would not be crippled by the loss of their primarch.

Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
 
   
Made in gb
Annoyed Blood Angel Devastator




Wales

Suprisingly, I never even considered Dorn, but you both make excellent points, As the Emperors chosen to design the defences on Terra, he would have tore them down with ease that's for sure.

"For the love of Baal!" - Captain Zedrenael of the 8th Company before declaring a charge against Kharn and his Bezerkers. 
   
Made in us
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General





Beijing, China

Roberte Gulliman or Dorn would have been the most crucial primarchs that stayed loyal that could have fallen.

The Dark Angeles had their own problems, the bloody angeles werent really all that powerful, sanguinius being their most important asset.
Russ and the SW would have been important, but not to the same degree that the ultras or fists would have been.
Khan, Vulkan, Ferras and Corax.....

Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++  
   
Made in us
Boosting Space Marine Biker




Texas

I voted Alpharius. Based on the story revealed so far, If their asymmetrical warfare capabilities had been on the loyalist's side, I think it's fair to say that at the very least, Isstvan V becomes notorious for being a massacre of the traitor legions with possibly a serious disruption to the Traitor legions plans on Isstvan III, as there is no way that such an undertaking goes undetected by the agents of the Alpha Legion and by extension the Loyalists.

Even if Isstvan V happens, given the role they played in sabotaging the Sol system's defenses, harrying the Space Wolves, interfering with Corax's attempts to rebuild the Raven Guard, etc. not happening and instead their energy going towards doing something similar on behalf of the loyalists, their efforts seem to be the tipping point that ultimately leads to the traitors not reaching Terra.

This of course put's aside some of the more obvious possibilities like Lorgar not becoming a follower of Chaos. Had he kept faith, then how do the warrior lodges take hold and how does Horus get turned. And even if Horus was turned with out Lorgar's influence. With no Lorgar, there is no Calth and no ruinstorm, and the follow on effect of essentially tying down the Ultramarines which also means that the two largest legions would be able to bring to bear their full might against the remaining 7 traitor legions (not counting the Thousand Sons).

Similarly, if Magnus had not tried to use the method he did to warn the Emperor, there is no war in the webway, and the Emperor is free to rally the Imperium and confront Horus much sooner, with the full strength Thousand Sons and Space Wolves at his side.

Ultimately, I think had any one of the traitor primarchs stayed loyal, the degree and speed of victory by the loyalist forces would have only improved.

As for the other way, if you take Horus at his word, either having the Khan or the Angel would have been enough to assure victory.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/16 21:44:12


"Preach the gospel always, If necessary use words." ~ St. Francis of Assisi 
   
Made in gb
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

The problem with Alpharius and Magnus is that neither are necessarily traitors. Alpharius joined the Traitors to save the Galaxy from chaos by destroying humanity, had they not wished to save the galaxy might they have joined the Traitors for the purpose of destroying the Emperor anyway? We don't know.

As with Magnus, he was a loyalist framed by the Emperor's love for Horus and Horus' schemes. If he had turned then he wouldn't have warned the Emperor and would have helped destroy him (also the Emperor's webway would still be intact, how would that change things?).

Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







Lorgar. If he abruptly exploded (or said "no" to the Chaos Gods) the whole Heresy stops in its tracks before it gets off the ground.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
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Made in gb
Annoyed Blood Angel Devastator




Wales

 Exergy wrote:
Roberte Gulliman or Dorn would have been the most crucial primarchs that stayed loyal that could have fallen.

The Dark Angeles had their own problems, the bloody angeles werent really all that powerful, sanguinius being their most important asset.
Russ and the SW would have been important, but not to the same degree that the ultras or fists would have been.
Khan, Vulkan, Ferras and Corax.....


Doesn't it specifically say in Visions that the Blood Angels drove the traitors from Terra with the Fists and Scars both falling back to avoid their onslaught? That seems pretty powerful to me. I think something I like to call "The Sanguinius Fear Factor" played a big part too. Horus was terrified of sanguinius, like Guilliman he sent him to the other half of the galaxy and tried to have him killed. If Horus was afraid of him, it stands to reason the loyalists would have been scared of him too.

"For the love of Baal!" - Captain Zedrenael of the 8th Company before declaring a charge against Kharn and his Bezerkers. 
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler




Newcastle

I like the idea that any single primarch joining the other side to make a 10 vs 8 fight tips the scales irreversibly. That seems plausible.

If we're leaving out Lorgar staying loyal then Guilliman seems like the most obvious choice. The Word Bearers wouldn't have to expend such resources fighting the poster boys and Horus gets a massive ally. Hard to say because the Ultras would lose their plot armour if they went to Chaos and Guilliman might end up getting killed by Vulkan or suffer some similarly undignified fate

Hydra Dominatus 
   
Made in fr
Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks





France

 mrhappyface wrote:
For the loyalists: Dorn of course! He was maintaining the defences on Terra, if he had turned then Terra would have fallen with far less trouble.

For the Heretics: I'm gonna say Fulgrim. He would have been able to warn the loyalist legions about the treachery and the dropsite massacre may have been prevented, certainly the Iron Hands would not be crippled by the loss of their primarch.


^This

   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





One of the missing primarchs is named Jeff. He knows when they're doing chicken nuggets in the work cafeteria. He's the most important, by far.
   
Made in gb
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

 Elbows wrote:
One of the missing primarchs is named Jeff. He knows when they're doing chicken nuggets in the work cafeteria. He's the most important, by far.

Wut.

Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
 
   
Made in au
Hardened Veteran Guardsman





 mrhappyface wrote:
 Elbows wrote:
One of the missing primarchs is named Jeff. He knows when they're doing chicken nuggets in the work cafeteria. He's the most important, by far.

Wut.


A mind without guidance will wander in dark places.

If you allow yourself to be killed and ingested, your soul is forfeited. 
   
Made in gb
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

Mudrat wrote:
 mrhappyface wrote:
 Elbows wrote:
One of the missing primarchs is named Jeff. He knows when they're doing chicken nuggets in the work cafeteria. He's the most important, by far.

Wut.


A mind without guidance will wander in dark places.

Wut.

Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Enginseer with a Wrench





Magnus

The amount of things he affected by being tricked and then turning is massive.

The things he could have done for the Emperor if he had not turned is probably even more massive.
   
Made in ca
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot






Canada

Sanguinius.

In his duel with Horus, his sword creating a chink in Horus's armor made it possible for the Emperor to annihilate Horus from existence - otherwise, the traitors win.

6000 pts
2000 pts
2500 pts
3000 pts

"We're on an express elevator to hell - goin' down!"

"Depends on the service being refused. It should be fine to refuse to make a porn star a dildo shaped cake that they wanted to use in a wedding themed porn..." 
   
Made in au
Ancient Space Wolves Venerable Dreadnought






Khan.
He was on a hairline between eliminating the Wolves and leaving them alone, if he'd sided with Horus the Wolves would be gone, the Alpha Legion would have made it a massacre, then the pair would have done the Dark Angels in instead of being beaten back by the Wolves and Dark Angels and the White Scars would have become traitors.
two Loyalist Chapters with re-rollable plot armour eliminated and or decimated and an extra Traitor legion would have tipped the scales immensely.

I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go. 
   
Made in ca
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard






Vancouver, BC

Guilliman was the most important after he got involved in the war and after the Heresy. The Imperium has lasted ten thousand years, and while the Codex is much maligned around here, it did do it's job and prevent tyrants like Huron Blackheart from controlling entire Legions.

That, and if Guilliman had turned traitor and had turned to Horus' side, the Ultramarines would've had 500+ worlds to offer to Horus in support. That plus their numbers, and the Galaxy would've burned.

Magnus is also pretty important, as the other 7 traitors could've done whatever they had wanted, but if Magnus hadn't let his hubris dictate his actions, the Imperium could've recovered from the Heresy. Instead, he punched a hole in the webway, and doomed Humanity to death.

Master of Mankind was a good book.

 warboss wrote:
Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
 
   
Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife




The Internet- where men are men, women are men, and kids are undercover cops

With three exceptions, any Legion that was on another side would have tipped the scales the other way.

Two exceptions being Magnus and Russ, who ended up at each other's throats despite both initially being Loyalists. A traitor Russ would have done roughly the same thing he did, with Magnus remaining loyal to the Emperor and fighting instead of letting Russ annihilate most of his legion on Prospero. An initially traitor Magnus would have also fought the wolves harder... but I see the roles these two played as not changing much no matter their loyalty. Hell, if they were both traitors, they *still* probably would have ended up fighting each other.

The third being Fulgrim. Erebus, Kor Phaeron, and their allies might have just killed a loyal Lorgar and continued on with the Heresy.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Crazyterran wrote:


Magnus is also pretty important, as the other 7 traitors could've done whatever they had wanted, but if Magnus hadn't let his hubris dictate his actions, the Imperium could've recovered from the Heresy. Instead, he punched a hole in the webway, and doomed Humanity to death.


Loyalist Magnus punched a hole in the Webway, Traitor Magnus would have done the same thing on purpose instead of on accident.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/17 18:04:01


 Jon Garrett wrote:
Perhaps not technically a Marine Chapter anymore, but the Flame Falcons would be pretty creepy to fight.

"Boss, we waz out lookin' for grub when some of them Spice Marines showed up and shot all the lads."

"Right. Well, did you at least use the burnas?"

"We tried, but the gits was already on fire."

"...Kunnin'."
 
   
Made in us
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot




New York, USA

Hell, even if Dorn died just before the Siege started, isntead of turning traitor or whatever, Terra would have fallen instead of holding on long enough to allow the other loyalists to force Horus to gamble the war on a single duel with the Emperor.

"Surrender and Die."

"To an Immortal, to one among a legion, honor and your word are all that matter" - Phaeron Orionis of the Brotherhood

W-L-D
6-1-3 
   
Made in us
Hellish Haemonculus






Boskydell, IL

If Gulliman had gone Chaos, the Imperium would have lost.

If Lorgar had not gone Chaos, the Heresy wouldn't have ever gained enough steam to be pulled off.

Welcome to the Freakshow!

(Leadership-shenanigans for Eldar of all types.) 
   
Made in au
Hardened Veteran Guardsman





Horus says outright that the Scars or Iron Hands would be enough to secure him victory, so i think its safe to say that if any more of the loyal primarchs had fallen (except maybe Vulkan) the Imperium was doomed.

As far as traitors remaining loyal: Horus and Lorgar would have stopped the heresy in its tracks, or at least made it much less effective. Without Pert and the IW's the imperial palace wouldn't have been broken anywhere near soon enough, not to mention they provided garrison's throughout the imperium. The NL and AL followed their respective primarchs and without them the Ultramarines/Dark Angels/Space Wolves would have arrived much sooner, and Vulkan might not be absolutely insane.
This leaves the 4 cult legions. The TS weren't the most influential legion, but if magnus stays loyal and isn't killed by russ, than he sits on the golden throne and the emperor waltzes out and smashes the heretics. The WE/DG/EC would almost all remained loyal if their primarchs did, and without them the Heresy would never have gotten as far of the ground as it did.

Bottom line: almost any legion changing from the original would guarantee victory for the side with the now numbers advantage. I tihnk its much more interesting to imagine what would have happened if different legions/primarchs fell (say, the Space Wolves instead of the World Eaters)

If you allow yourself to be killed and ingested, your soul is forfeited. 
   
Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife




The Internet- where men are men, women are men, and kids are undercover cops

 Jimsolo wrote:


If Lorgar had not gone Chaos, the Heresy wouldn't have ever gained enough steam to be pulled off.


I'm telling y'all, Kor Phaeron and Erebus could have shoved Lorgar into a trash compactor and the Heresy would have turned out the same way.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/18 01:26:24


 Jon Garrett wrote:
Perhaps not technically a Marine Chapter anymore, but the Flame Falcons would be pretty creepy to fight.

"Boss, we waz out lookin' for grub when some of them Spice Marines showed up and shot all the lads."

"Right. Well, did you at least use the burnas?"

"We tried, but the gits was already on fire."

"...Kunnin'."
 
   
Made in au
Hardened Veteran Guardsman





 EmpNortonII wrote:
 Jimsolo wrote:


If Lorgar had not gone Chaos, the Heresy wouldn't have ever gained enough steam to be pulled off.


I'm telling y'all, Kor Phaeron and Erebus could have shoved Lorgar into a trash compactor and the Heresy would have turned out the same way.


But would it have been exactly the same is the point of contention. I personally think it would have been slightly easier for the loyalists if lorgar wasn't there

If you allow yourself to be killed and ingested, your soul is forfeited. 
   
Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife




The Internet- where men are men, women are men, and kids are undercover cops

Mudrat wrote:
 EmpNortonII wrote:
 Jimsolo wrote:


If Lorgar had not gone Chaos, the Heresy wouldn't have ever gained enough steam to be pulled off.


I'm telling y'all, Kor Phaeron and Erebus could have shoved Lorgar into a trash compactor and the Heresy would have turned out the same way.


But would it have been exactly the same is the point of contention. I personally think it would have been slightly easier for the loyalists if lorgar wasn't there


On the contrary, Curze might have killed Corax if Konrad hadn't been so disgusted at what an utter bitch Lorgar was.

 Jon Garrett wrote:
Perhaps not technically a Marine Chapter anymore, but the Flame Falcons would be pretty creepy to fight.

"Boss, we waz out lookin' for grub when some of them Spice Marines showed up and shot all the lads."

"Right. Well, did you at least use the burnas?"

"We tried, but the gits was already on fire."

"...Kunnin'."
 
   
Made in au
Hardened Veteran Guardsman





On the contrary, Curze might have killed Corax if Konrad hadn't been so disgusted at what an utter bitch Lorgar was.


Very fair point.Although we should consider Lorgar's accomplishments during the heresy. The two main ones are his interaction with possessed Fulgrim and turning Angron into a daemon prince. Another is that he acts as the stabiliser between Phaeron and Erebus. Without Lorgar the WB's might end up splitting into warbands prematurely.

So its the question of whether both Lorgar and Corax being alive is better or worse for each side than them both being dead. Personally I think chaos would rather have both of them alive (and thus Angron becoming a Daemon prince), especially as the AL messed up Corax's hail mary.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/18 01:42:54


If you allow yourself to be killed and ingested, your soul is forfeited. 
   
 
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