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So this is not meant to be a rant, though parts of it may sound that way. I'd just like to get a general feel for how people have encountered Ravenwing.

Our LGS just started a league and we are currently only at 500pts. I am playing Eldar. I am trying to play competitive, but not TFG.
My list so far is
1 Farseer on bike,
2x 3 Windriders with 1 Scatter & 2 Shuricannons each,
2 Hornets
and 2 Shadow Weavers.

My very first game was against a Ravenwing Strikeforce with 2x 3 Bikes with 1 powerfist each, 1 Chaplain on bike, 1 MM attack bike & a Dark Shroud.
I have yet to fit Ravenwing, but have heard nasty things. All game his entire army had a 2+ re-rollable Jink save.

We played 5 turns and all I managed to kill was 1 Space Marine....and that was on turn 5. Nothing like this has EVERY happened to me...with any army, much less my Eldar
He ended up winning because of the objectives, obviously, as there was no way I was gonna get close to those powerfists.
To be far, he only killed 1 of my bikes and the Shadow Weavers, but it was still one of the most unsatifying games I have ever played. I have played games that were crushing defeats for me that were still WAAAYYY more fun because I actually got to participate in the game rather than rolling dice that don't matter.

Don't get me wrong, the guy I played was cool and it is about time that Eldar got some decent counters, but I am seriously at a loss here.
Am I supposed to load up on Dark Reapers, which I am not a fan of, just to regain an "all-comers" list?
Even killing the Dark Shroud still leaves the bikes with a 3+ rerollable Jink (because skilled rider).

In general, do you think that list like Ravenwing & Genestealer cults will change the Meta since they are very good counters to shooting armies?
Will this finally encourage a shift towards CC armies?

Let's hear your thoughts

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Firstly. you are taking pretty much the nastiest of eldar stuff at low cost without Wraith so you are half way to being that guy.

Secondly did you go for the spell discipline that has Psychic shriek and ignores cover (If not why not you were playing and army whose soul purpose for survival is cover.

No, not really, raven wing is just a very powerful list right now, he was running the not so sharp version of the list as well.

The extra cheesy version is with a lib rolling for invisibility.

But they wont change the meta.

And as an aside, GSC can counter the ravenwing bike army really hard on turn one. Summon the cultists all with hand flamers right next to them, rip bikes when the get mauled by 8 hand flamers. I played a 1000 point game, i brought my bikestar because i had nothing else at the time, my opponant was running a GSC, managed to make me surrender in turn .5 after he took down 2 bikes with flamers, 2 more in melee and my darkshroud with genestealers

Really, Ravenwing just melt in assault. They lose all their fancy defensive buffs and turn into slightly overcosted marines, who were already not known for being great in assaults.
Yeah, if you try and shoot at them without ignores cover, you're just going to have a bad time, but getting stuck in will really kill them fast.

Try spamming scatter lasers. Or fight them in CC to deny them any cover save.

Just because the Eldar are full of cheese doesn’t mean it’s the only cheese out there.

The 2+ rerollable jink save is nasty, no argument. But it’s a cover save, so there are a number of ways around it. CC being a big one.

I just wish they could balance things without going full-on R/P/S. That sort of jinking is a hard counter to any shooting that doesn’t ignore cover. I’d prefer to see things capped out at “resistant” and not “functionally immune"

I was half expecting it to be 1500 points or something. That would have been terrible...

Anyway, Ravenwing are disgusting with the Jink. The Darkshroud is usually the first priority.

I don't think you need to add Dark Reapers. I think you just need to add some reliable Ignore Cover, either through CC units or multiple psykers.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Really, Ravenwing just melt in assault. They lose all their fancy defensive buffs and turn into slightly overcosted marines, who were already not known for being great in assaults.
Yeah, if you try and shoot at them without ignores cover, you're just going to have a bad time, but getting stuck in will really kill them fast.

This, the only caviot is that you need to watch out if they have a banner barer, since they auto pass hit and run, at the end of your assault phase, they can bugger out, and get right back into your face on their turn and open up.

Best thing to do is charge the dark shroud ASAP and kill it.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Really, Ravenwing just melt in assault. They lose all their fancy defensive buffs and turn into slightly overcosted marines, who were already not known for being great in assaults.
Yeah, if you try and shoot at them without ignores cover, you're just going to have a bad time, but getting stuck in will really kill them fast.

That was something I thought of, but he had Fists in each unit and my Eldar wound him on 6 in CC.

BTW, my Hornets had 1 Pulse Laser & 1 Bright lance. I forgot to mention that. So by not having all Scatter lasers & Pulse lasers AND having Shadow Weavers, my list is considered fairly tame in my local meta. Juts FYI
However, I don't think going full TFG would have helped. I really didn't think about using Shriek (cuz it always disappoints me) or trying to roll Perfect Timing. I should have and will be my go-to strategy from now one.
It might be worth taking a Warlock since their Primaris is Conceal/Reveal. Reveal denies a unit from using Shroud or Stealth. Not really great against the bikes since they'd still have a 3+, but might be enough to get a decent round to drop the Dark Shroud. And as a bonus, the Warlock has a Fleshbane weapon if I need some CC

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I'll be honest. I wouldn't even play a game with anything that involved 2+ re-rollable...anything. That's just silliness that doesn't belong on a table.

Skatach Wraithknights are popular for a reason...

I've dealt with it before. Not easily, but I'm sure if BA can do it, mighty Eldar can handle it.

 Elbows wrote:
I'll be honest. I wouldn't even play a game with anything that involved 2+ re-rollable...anything. That's just silliness that doesn't belong on a table.

It's not overly bad for Daemons because they cannot do it for their entire army and the units that can reliably get it cost over 300pts each and usually rely on 300+pts on OTHER characters to get that to work. And even then, it is not guaranteed to work. You still need to roll the right power, successfully cast said power, or successfully roll the 1 relic that effects the 1 unit to use it on.
And Tzeentch help you if you don't go first to get all that up.

Ravenwing don't have to roll jack and get their full bonus for the entire army. Even without the Dark Shroud, a 3+ rerollable Jink is darn near invincible.
And only 1 army in all of 40K has enough ignores cover to even be considered a counter.

I feel like the 1 balancing factor is that RW need to Jink, rendering their weapons ineffective (except for that first turn bs) and unlike Necrons, they don't seem to have really effective CC units.
So if you expect to go against RW (which in any tourney, you now should expect that) you need some good CC units. This can only be a good thing.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Skatach Wraithknights are popular for a reason...

I've never understood why until now. Too bad GCs & SHV aren't allowed in my local League until 1500pts

Martel732 wrote:
I've dealt with it before. Not easily, but I'm sure if BA can do it, mighty Eldar can handle it.

The difference is that BAs are kinda forced to take CC units, whereas the most effective Eldar lists only have a WK for CC.
But I get your point. I now have to adapt, as all 40K players should, and Eldar still have the best tools

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Black knights are pretty damn effective...

And all assault ignores cover. I know it's a phase that most Eldar players forget about.

 Galef wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
I'll be honest. I wouldn't even play a game with anything that involved 2+ re-rollable...anything. That's just silliness that doesn't belong on a table.

It's not overly bad for Daemons because they cannot do it for their entire army and the units that can reliably get it cost over 300pts each and usually rely on 300+pts on OTHER characters to get that to work. And even then, it is not guaranteed to work. You still need to roll the right power, successfully cast said power, or successfully roll the 1 relic that effects the 1 unit to use it on.
And Tzeentch help you if you don't go first to get all that up.

Ravenwing don't have to roll jack and get their full bonus for the entire army. Even without the Dark Shroud, a 3+ rerollable Jink is darn near invincible.
And only 1 army in all of 40K has enough ignores cover to even be considered a counter.

I feel like the 1 balancing factor is that RW need to Jink, rendering their weapons ineffective (except for that first turn bs) and unlike Necrons, they don't seem to have really effective CC units.
So if you expect to go against RW (which in any tourney, you now should expect that) you need some good CC units. This can only be a good thing.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Skatach Wraithknights are popular for a reason...

I've never understood why until now. Too bad GCs & SHV aren't allowed in my local League until 1500pts

Martel732 wrote:
I've dealt with it before. Not easily, but I'm sure if BA can do it, mighty Eldar can handle it.

The difference is that BAs are kinda forced to take CC units, whereas the most effective Eldar lists only have a WK for CC.
But I get your point. I now have to adapt, as all 40K players should, and Eldar still have the best tools

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Galef correct me if I wrong but were you not one of the people saying magnus who has a higher toughness then these bikes and has a 3+ with rerolling of 1 for an invaluable save was fine back when Tradito made his Magnus is OP thread?

Magnus is 650 points though and a Unique character, not to mention a LoW.

These guys, with a better re-rollable, are about 40 each and are in FA so can be spammed at such a cheap points level.

I do not know what is not to like about Reapers, I NEVER leave home without a 5 man-squad.

It's a flexible unit that can solve SO many problems. You just need to know how to best leverage their strengths and prepare for their weaknesses.

Now playing at low-point level you cannot use the Aspect Host to make them even more disgusting but giving them a re-roll to hit should be easy with a Farseer.

Another fun tactic is if you have a Warlock and you have Protect/Jinx. Jinx some Terminators to make them +3 and laugh as the reapers mow them down in a single turn.

DoW said it best: All who love life fear the Reaper.

 mew28 wrote:

Galef correct me if I wrong but were you not one of the people saying magnus who has a higher toughness then these bikes and has a 3+ with rerolling of 1 for an invaluable save was fine back when Tradito made his Magnus is OP thread?

Indeed, that was me, but see this:

 Frozocrone wrote:
Magnus is 650 points though and a Unique character, not to mention a LoW.

These guys, with a better re-rollable, are about 40 each and are in FA so can be spammed at such a cheap points level.

I am not saying the RW are like, the best army ever, but they are currently a hard counter to Eldar which cannot take enough ignores covers.
But again, this can only be a good thing for the meta, even if it does suck for me.

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It's either all or nothing. You either have ignore cover or fast mellee and have a chance of killing them - outside of mageconclaves - or you don't and you have no chances of killing them. Than you make them jink and pray for lucky maelstorm and early game end.

Few suggestions;

#1 - If you have two choices, both bad, take the better of the two bad choices. That means if you need to get into close combat, you get into close combat.

#2 - Consider Warlocks on bikes. Their flamer psychic power will ignore their Jink saves, and their Witchblades will ignore their high toughness in close combat, while their Inv save will help protect against powerfists.

#3 - Have your Farseer take powers from lists with cover-ignoring effects, like Psychic Scream, or Mind War.

You have the tools already, you just need to use them differently. Don't go for the more defensive powers or powers that let you shoot more accurately, because it's pointless to try and just dice-force your way through their defences. Play smarter, not harder.

 Yarium wrote:
Few suggestions;

#1 - If you have two choices, both bad, take the better of the two bad choices. That means if you need to get into close combat, you get into close combat.

#2 - Consider Warlocks on bikes. Their flamer psychic power will ignore their Jink saves, and their Witchblades will ignore their high toughness in close combat, while their Inv save will help protect against powerfists.

#3 - Have your Farseer take powers from lists with cover-ignoring effects, like Psychic Scream, or Mind War.

You have the tools already, you just need to use them differently. Don't go for the more defensive powers or powers that let you shoot more accurately, because it's pointless to try and just dice-force your way through their defences. Play smarter, not harder.

So basically use my own advise, which is conveniently in your sig.

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Atta boy!

How did he have a 2+ cover rerollable? Was it a mission with always night fighting? The only models that get a 2+ are black knights (4+, 3+ w/ skilled rider, 2+ w/ darkshroud), normal bikers don't have skilled rider, so can only get a 3+. Either he was playing black knights incorrectly, as they can only take power weapons, or he was playing bikers incorrectly as they only have a 3+. Unless there's something I missed, like always night fighting, or some strategy that I've never noticed for ravenwing.

Please keep us posted if you get a rematch with same lists, new strategies and tactics.

Rematches with same lists can be very interesting.

 kingbobbito wrote:
How did he have a 2+ cover rerollable? Was it a mission with always night fighting? The only models that get a 2+ are black knights (4+, 3+ w/ skilled rider, 2+ w/ darkshroud), normal bikers don't have skilled rider, so can only get a 3+. Either he was playing black knights incorrectly, as they can only take power weapons, or he was playing bikers incorrectly as they only have a 3+. Unless there's something I missed, like always night fighting, or some strategy that I've never noticed for ravenwing.

He said all RW bikes have Skilled rider. This may only be Black Knights though, someone with the codex will have to confirm.
Maybe the RW strike force gives out Skilled rider?

But, he did have a Dark Shroud which grants Stealth to nearby units. So Jink 4+, Skilled Rider 3+, Stealth 2+
And all RW have re-rollable cover saves when they Jink.

He did have an older version of the codex on hand, which we both noticed before the game started. He had the current rules on his phone (ugh )
We didn't look much up and he admitted to being rather new. Next time, we will check all the rules. I am sure we will get a rematch eventually

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My formula is shoot grav/plasma/melta at a given RW squad and then assault. The jinking stops their fancy overwatch. Drop fragnoughts are really brutal against them too. And archangel sanguine wing doesn't give a FETH.

My understanding from a game a year and a bit ago was that Ravenwing get a rerollable Jink Save, and that during the first turn this Jink Save doesn't even reduce their ability to fire weapons on the next turn. I know that with the Dark Shroud you get 2+ rerollable jink with Ravenwing, and I think all Dark Angels bikers are considered Ravenwing. But yeah, I am also without a codex, and don't play against them regularly, so I couldn't tell you for sure.

Remember that non of the IC on bike gain the raven wing rerollable jinx save. Only their named special bloke on bike.

 Galef wrote:

Am I supposed to load up on Dark Reapers, which I am not a fan of, just to regain an "all-comers" list?
Even killing the Dark Shroud still leaves the bikes with a 3+ rerollable Jink (because skilled rider).

I don't think "load up" is necessary, but Dark Reapers would be a near auto-include for me. Plus they could Knock out that Dark Shroud, Pronto. I feel like the Dark Shroud gives more than just Shrouding, but I could be mistaken. I just recall it being a pretty important thing to take out, for whatever reason.

Like Martel says, be sure to force them all to be Jinking too. Most of the Ravenwing I've fought have been pretty shooty, so reducing their ranged output it really important.

But beyond that, my most effective games required me to roll up my sleeves and get in there with template weapons and assaults. My Assault Squads and Characters have shone against Ravenwing. With Eldar I guess that's a little tougher, considering their natural S of 3, but they certainly have options with Scorpions, Spears, Witchblades etc.

I have found the power Perfect Timing to be only sort of OK, as it requires your psyker to be part of the unit whose firing, and that can leave sub-par options. You can't Perfect Timing War Walkers, for example. Psychic Scream is great because it's a Primaris, and even if it's not that effective most of the time, it freaks people out a bit.

There are several ways to bring magnus to a 2++ re-roll 1. And since its not a cover save you cant ignore it easily.