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mew28 wrote:Galef correct me if I wrong but were you not one of the people saying magnus who has a higher toughness then these bikes and has a 3+ with rerolling of 1 for an invaluable save was fine back when Tradito made his Magnus is OP thread?

Not only that, but I either made a thread about, or else, extensively commented in a thread about ravenwing, and basically said that they're completely OP precisely for this reason.

Of course, when I complain about things either being functionally indestructible, or otherwise, having WAY too much firepower or durability for their points cost, people mock me, call me a troll, a scrub, and everything else in the book.

Go figure.


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 Frozocrone wrote:
Magnus is 650 points though and a Unique character, not to mention a LoW.

These guys, with a better re-rollable, are about 40 each and are in FA so can be spammed at such a cheap points level.

So fething what? A 2+ rerollable invuln is still virtually indestructible. And combined with its close combat capabilities and psychic capabilities? Combined with its mobility?

I don't care what the points cost is. Something that's virtually indestructible AND has that much mobility and capability to deal damage does NOT belong in the game.

And especially not in a non-apocalypse game.

One stomp and it's down.

 Galef wrote:

Table wrote:
There are several ways to bring magnus to a 2++ re-roll 1. And since its not a cover save you cant ignore it easily.

Indeed, but he alone is 1/3 of his entire army. So worst case scenario, you ignore him. You CANNOT, however, ignore your entire opponent's army.

You cannot fething ignore an FMC that has the damage-dealing capability that Magnus has WHILE IGNORING LINE OF SIGHT.

Placing Magnus on the field basically means: "Alright. I'm going to spend 5-7 turns deleting whatever I want. No, you can't do anything about it."

Which is precisely why players should have boycotted Magnus. Because that kind of bull gak does not belong in the game.


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 koooaei wrote:
One stomp and it's down.

You are making two assumptions that cannot be made:

1. You are assuming that I am fielding a GMC or a superheavy walker.

2. You are assuming that the opponent is actually dumb enough to land the thing within charging distance while at the same time not being confident that Magnus can kill the thing prior to Initiative phase 0.

If he's not landing the thing it just ends up as an overpriced spellcaster and if you're not fielding superheavies, you don't have to worry about his d-shots.

And to be clear:

Magnus = roughly 3 1/2 Captain Shrikes.

Which would you prefer to take?


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 koooaei wrote:
If he's not landing the thing it just ends up as an overpriced spellcaster.

As so often happens, you have, either accidentally or deliberately, misconstrued, misinterpreted and misrepresented what I actually said. I didn't say "dumb enough to land the thing" and add no further qualifications.

Learn to read more carefully.

He's also 3.25 St Celestines with resurrecting bodyguards and a buff aura.

 Traditio wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Table wrote:
There are several ways to bring magnus to a 2++ re-roll 1. And since its not a cover save you cant ignore it easily.

Indeed, but he alone is 1/3 of his entire army. So worst case scenario, you ignore him. You CANNOT, however, ignore your entire opponent's army.

You cannot fething ignore an FMC that has the damage-dealing capability that Magnus has WHILE IGNORING LINE OF SIGHT.

Placing Magnus on the field basically means: "Alright. I'm going to spend 5-7 turns deleting whatever I want. No, you can't do anything about it."

Which is precisely why players should have boycotted Magnus. Because that kind of bull gak does not belong in the game.

And once again (like in the other thread) you fail to realise just how low of a damage output Magnus has for a 650pt model unless you build the rest of the army around supplying him with endless warpcharges, and also the fact that all his shooting attacks are short ranged.

Ignoring LoS doesn't matter that much when you can only shoot as far as a bolter as a maximum and are tall enough to see over all but the tallest terrain pieces.

 koooaei wrote:
He's also 3.25 St Celestines with resurrecting bodyguards and a buff aura.

I never said that Magnus is the only OP bull gak in the game. Power levels and points costs are all over the place.

The whole game is a heaping load of gak.

 Traditio wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
He's also 3.25 St Celestines with resurrecting bodyguards and a buff aura.

I never said that Magnus is the only OP bull gak in the game. Power levels and points costs are all over the place.

The whole game is a heaping load of gak.

I've pulled a win in a 1250 pt tourney running mono orks and having faced two ravenwings and an eldar double-knight list. Should they nerf orks?

It's all about approach. Ravenwing is extremely hard to beat if you don't have tools or opt not to use them. Like when you declare the sky falling cause of Magnus. Yep, he looks intimidating with his ml5, manifesting on 2+, a spawn-turning sword, d-strength powers and most importantly nipple horns but than you should take into consideration that he's just a single model without stomps and that if he's flying he has his effectiveness reduced even more. And he needs warpcharge batteries. You could get 4-5 sorcerors for his price. And they'd likely know invisibility/endurance and soul swap. Which is way more frightening. So, if you still choose to throw everything at a flying 2++ re-rollable daemon while completely ignoring the rest of the list that you CAN kill, it's entirely your problem. Not telling that there are no imbalances but in this case the sky's still up there.

As for beating ravenwing with eldar you either fish for ignore cover - and the OP could have easilly done that without even adjusting his list - or...slightly adjust your list. A commonly taken wraithknight can help you deal with them. He's not a counter as is cause ravenwing can still hurt him with their plazma quite significantly but he can help. Or you take something like bright lances. It's funny how a mediocre unit can suddenly work wonders vs a certain foe. Just don't forget your banshee mask or they'll get plazmaed down on a bs2 tl overwatch. Even if it's not a universal answer, still a good way to field a somewhat exotic unit which is always fun.

Zustiur wrote:
Just posting to confirm Dark Angel rules for anyone who's not sure.
1) The FAQ allows the chaplain on bike in the Ravenwing detachment
2) Ravenwing Bike Squads may take a powerfist on the sergeant. Ravenwing Black Knights cannot
3) All Ravenwing (not the chaplain) get the re-roll for jink
4) Ravenwing Bike Squad does not have Skilled rider, Black Knights do.
5) Dark Shroud gives Shrouded to itself only. Other units within 12" get stealth
6) Points of the models and gear listed comes to 445 with the bikes being bikes. It would be over 500 with black knights, so it was definitely bikes. I'm guessing the remaining 55 went on upgrading to veteran sergeants and the chaplain having other gear

Jink + stealth + Ravenwing is 3+ rerolled. Not 2+ rerolled.
There were definitely some errors in this game.

And yeah for tactical advice, Ravenwing are really bad in combat by themselves. 1 attack each. 2 attacks for the power fist IF he's a veteran. However, they have Hit and Run so can get out if they don't want to be there.

Thank you. This is incredibly helpful. I think my strategy will now be to change up my list a bit, adding a Warlock for 2 reasons. 1) Reveal the Dark Shroud and blow it up, 2) Being a character with a withchblade, the Warlock can challenge out the Fist and make assaults worth while.

I am tempted to play an Autarch instead of a Farseer, but I need to play around with the points first

-

question is what else are you likely to play or is it just a 1 v 1 escalation

 rawne2510 wrote:
question is what else are you likely to play or is it just a 1 v 1 escalation

Well I play Saim-Hann themed Eldar, so every list I have every played or will ever play is GOING to have bikes. At least 2x 3 with at least 1 Scatter laser per unit, more if I just can't fit points easily somewhere else.
It might be a good opportunity to take some Shinning Spears. At which point I would have not issue taking more Scatterbikes, since Spears can be a liability

Sorry I meant are you playing against any other armies or is it just you against the DA player. gearing your list for escalation against a single foe is a little easier than against say 5-6 different types of armies


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I had an escalation league last year where we had 12 players. 1 eldar, 1 tau, 1 orc, 1 GK, 2 guard and 6 codex marines for across the chapters. 1 list submitted at the begin that you had to play against all (couldn´t change for each army)

Oh, I see. No, it is a league that lasts until April and we get points for playing someone we have not played yet. So actually, a rematch may not be likely with the DA player anytime soon, although it is entirely possible

But in any case, adding some CC to the list seems like a good idea. The only units I have for this are: 5 Scorpions, 5 Spears, 5 Wraithblades, or an Avatar. Out of those, the Spears seem to be the best for 500pts

Okay, here's the Ravenwing tutorial.

All units with the Ravenwing rule can reroll their Jink saves. All Ravenwing units on bikes have Hit & Run.

Normal Bike Squads have a 4+ Jink save. They do not have Skilled Riders. They can take all the usual Bike Squad upgrades - meltas, grav, flamers, plasma, and the usual Sergeant weapons.

Ravenwing Knights (and Commad Squads) have Skilled Riders, so they get a 3+ Jink. They only upgrade the squad can take is the Ravenwing grenade launcher. It has the usual grenade launcher grenades, plus rad and stasis grenades. Ravenwing rad grenades are weak sauce, so you won't see those used. Stasis grenades will see use as a debuff on a unit the Knights are about to charge. Ravenwing Knights are also pretty buff in assault - 2 attacks base, with pistol+ccw, and their corvus hammers are S+1 Rending. The squad leader can only take a power weapon, not a power fist, but since he's already got the corvus hammer, there's little reason to do this. Command Squads can also take an Apothecary for FNP, and can take the Ravenwing Banner to auto-pass Hit & Run.

The Dark Shroud itself has Shrouded, and passes Stealth to any friendly DA unit within 6". So, if one member of the unit is within 6" of the Dark Shroud, the whole unit gets Stealth. The Dark Shroud also denies Overwatch on any unit that began a charge within its Stealth bubble.

Sammael has Skilled Riders, and conveys it to a unit he joins if they don't already have it.

So, normal Ravenwing Bike Squad - 4+ Jink Save
Normal Ravenwing Bike Squad within 6" of a Dark Shroud - 3+ Jink Save
Normal Ravenwing Bike Squad with Sammael and within 6" of a Dark Shroud - 2+ Jink Save

Ravenwing Knights - 3+ Jink Save
Ravenwing Knights within 6" of a Dark Shroud - 2+ Jink Save

Dark Shroud - 2+ Jink save.

Everything else Ravenwing (speeders & flyers): 4+ Jink, 3+ within a Dark Shroud's Stealth bubble.

One more effect might improve a Jink save - a Librarian with Shrouding. He can give Shrouding to all nearby units, which could also jack up a regular Ravenwing Jink to a 2+.

The bane of Ravenwing is Ignores Cover, but even with that you're still shooting at T5 Space Marines with a 3+ save. Regular Ravenwing Bike Squads are also weak in assault, but can Hit & Run out. Ravenwing Knights are NOT weak in assault, and can Hit & Run out of an unfavorable one. Plus, both units fire Overwatch at BS2 at least, and with twin-linked weapons. Ravenwing Knights have twin linked plasma guns with an 18" long range and a 9" rapid fire range, so charging them is going to hurt.

The Dark Shroud is vulnerable to assault, and is vulnerable to being rammed. Shooting at it without Ignores Cover is usually a waste of time, because it's almost guaranteed to Jink away any damaging hits, and Jinking does not affect its value to the DA player as a whole.

Hope that clears things up.

To the OP: The Windriders where everyone had a heavy weapon pretty much cost you any sympathy I might have had. Buuuuuuut it looks as though your opponent - let's say he was mistaken, which is way nicer than saying he cheated. Regular Ravenwing Bike Squads have never had Skilled Riders, and Ravenwing Knights have never been able to take power fists.

And I am completely forgetting able Serpents. They still have they once per game 2D6 ignores cover str6 shots. I could 'hail mary' one round at the Dark Shroud and hope to drop it in the first turn.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
Okay, here's the Ravenwing tutorial.

All units with the Ravenwing rule can reroll their Jink saves. All Ravenwing units on bikes have Hit & Run.

Normal Bike Squads have a 4+ Jink save. They do not have Skilled Riders. They can take all the usual Bike Squad upgrades - meltas, grav, flamers, plasma, and the usual Sergeant weapons.

Ravenwing Knights (and Commad Squads) have Skilled Riders, so they get a 3+ Jink. They only upgrade the squad can take is the Ravenwing grenade launcher. It has the usual grenade launcher grenades, plus rad and stasis grenades. Ravenwing rad grenades are weak sauce, so you won't see those used. Stasis grenades will see use as a debuff on a unit the Knights are about to charge. Ravenwing Knights are also pretty buff in assault - 2 attacks base, with pistol+ccw, and their corvus hammers are S+1 Rending. The squad leader can only take a power weapon, not a power fist, but since he's already got the corvus hammer, there's little reason to do this. Command Squads can also take an Apothecary for FNP, and can take the Ravenwing Banner to auto-pass Hit & Run.

The Dark Shroud itself has Shrouded, and passes Stealth to any friendly DA unit within 6". So, if one member of the unit is within 6" of the Dark Shroud, the whole unit gets Stealth. The Dark Shroud also denies Overwatch on any unit that began a charge within its Stealth bubble.

Sammael has Skilled Riders, and conveys it to a unit he joins if they don't already have it.

So, normal Ravenwing Bike Squad - 4+ Jink Save
Normal Ravenwing Bike Squad within 6" of a Dark Shroud - 3+ Jink Save
Normal Ravenwing Bike Squad with Sammael and within 6" of a Dark Shroud - 2+ Jink Save

Ravenwing Knights - 3+ Jink Save
Ravenwing Knights within 6" of a Dark Shroud - 2+ Jink Save

Dark Shroud - 2+ Jink save.

Everything else Ravenwing (speeders & flyers): 4+ Jink, 3+ within a Dark Shroud's Stealth bubble.

One more effect might improve a Jink save - a Librarian with Shrouding. He can give Shrouding to all nearby units, which could also jack up a regular Ravenwing Jink to a 2+.

The bane of Ravenwing is Ignores Cover, but even with that you're still shooting at T5 Space Marines with a 3+ save. Regular Ravenwing Bike Squads are also weak in assault, but can Hit & Run out. Ravenwing Knights are NOT weak in assault, and can Hit & Run out of an unfavorable one. Plus, both units fire Overwatch at BS2 at least, and with twin-linked weapons. Ravenwing Knights have twin linked plasma guns with an 18" long range and a 9" rapid fire range, so charging them is going to hurt.

The Dark Shroud is vulnerable to assault, and is vulnerable to being rammed. Shooting at it without Ignores Cover is usually a waste of time, because it's almost guaranteed to Jink away any damaging hits, and Jinking does not affect its value to the DA player as a whole.

Hope that clears things up.

To the OP: The Windriders where everyone had a heavy weapon pretty much cost you any sympathy I might have had. Buuuuuuut it looks as though your opponent - let's say he was mistaken, which is way nicer than saying he cheated. Regular Ravenwing Bike Squads have never had Skilled Riders, and Ravenwing Knights have never been able to take power fists.

Lovely review breakdown. If they jinx they are snap firing overwatch so down´t get the boost??

Knights lose fancy overwatch if you make them jink.

Yes, that is correct. Still twin-linked though.

Look at all these heretics. You killed one space marine, you should be honored.

 kingbobbito wrote:

But I do run DW alongside them. I run a lot of DW. I want to run a small bike force that can survive until turn 2 when the pain (for me at least) drops in. I'm totally TFG. So again, I don't want to spend 200 points on Sammy when buying a librarian saves me over 100 points. Unfluffy? Every time the RW is called in Sammael happens to be there? "Sammy's under the weather today, so looks like the RW aren't allowed to help out here". And the people that run cheesy superfriends lists simply don't care about the fluff, so let them do their thing.

As for superfriends ICs, allowing librarians/company masters/chaplains with bikes isn't any big deal. You realize that 3 ICs really isn't anything, right? You can already take 2 in a CAD. Want some CC power in your bike squads? Run a bunch of iron priests on TWC (the generally preferred choice, because S10). I think you can just straight up take 5 of them w/wolves as a detachment. Want more librarians? We already have that, it's called a conclave. No one thinks DA are cheesy because we can take an extra HQ choice, they think we're cheesy because we have a 2+ rerollable. The last thing people will call us cheesy for is "oh no, you can take a formation that lets you take a librarian instead of a unique character" or "you're allowed to take three HQ choices, that's totally broken!"

Seriously, what is your reasoning for thinking that taking more than 1 HQ is overpowered?

First you can't balance around players with good intentions, so the fact you don't cheese it is not a reason it's okay, because others will. Second, I know this isn't a meta defining feature, there are much worse bikestars that space marines have access to (all of which involve ravenwing), but for a single faction bike star it's pretty top of the heap, because of plasma talons/grenade launchers, rerolling cover saves, expert rider, rending, hit and run, a turn of full BS after jinking, and that's before the HQ. You spend your first turn laughing off an opponent's shots getting into rapid fire range for your talons, charge the survivors, and hit and running out at the end of your opponent's turn to repeat the process. It's a completely unfun army to fight, it's also an autopilot force. The only real moment of vulnerability is that they can be overwhelmed in CC (and due to speed they get to choose their dance partners, so that's iffy), which is much more difficult with the addition of CC focused ICs. Sammael was an anchor, he didn't add significantly to their CC ability, he was overcost, so he reduced the effectiveness of ravenwing. Instead we get to replace him with three very cost effective CC ICs which is a vast improvement.

Also if you haven't noticed this entire thread is about how OP ravenwing are, and you come in here "They are Fine, because there are worse things out there", the fact that there are one or two bike stars that can beat ravenwing doesn't mean it's balanced, AIDS is demonstrably less bad than Ebola, but I don't want either.

 Grimgold wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:

But I do run DW alongside them. I run a lot of DW. I want to run a small bike force that can survive until turn 2 when the pain (for me at least) drops in. I'm totally TFG. So again, I don't want to spend 200 points on Sammy when buying a librarian saves me over 100 points. Unfluffy? Every time the RW is called in Sammael happens to be there? "Sammy's under the weather today, so looks like the RW aren't allowed to help out here". And the people that run cheesy superfriends lists simply don't care about the fluff, so let them do their thing.

As for superfriends ICs, allowing librarians/company masters/chaplains with bikes isn't any big deal. You realize that 3 ICs really isn't anything, right? You can already take 2 in a CAD. Want some CC power in your bike squads? Run a bunch of iron priests on TWC (the generally preferred choice, because S10). I think you can just straight up take 5 of them w/wolves as a detachment. Want more librarians? We already have that, it's called a conclave. No one thinks DA are cheesy because we can take an extra HQ choice, they think we're cheesy because we have a 2+ rerollable. The last thing people will call us cheesy for is "oh no, you can take a formation that lets you take a librarian instead of a unique character" or "you're allowed to take three HQ choices, that's totally broken!"

Seriously, what is your reasoning for thinking that taking more than 1 HQ is overpowered?

First you can't balance around players with good intentions, so the fact you don't cheese it is not a reason it's okay, because others will. Second, I know this isn't a meta defining feature, there are much worse bikestars that space marines have access to (all of which involve ravenwing), but for a single faction bike star it's pretty top of the heap, because of plasma talons/grenade launchers, rerolling cover saves, expert rider, rending, hit and run, a turn of full BS after jinking, and that's before the HQ. You spend your first turn laughing off an opponent's shots getting into rapid fire range for your talons, charge the survivors, and hit and running out at the end of your opponent's turn to repeat the process. It's a completely unfun army to fight, it's also an autopilot force. The only real moment of vulnerability is that they can be overwhelmed in CC (and due to speed they get to choose their dance partners, so that's iffy), which is much more difficult with the addition of CC focused ICs. Sammael was an anchor, he didn't add significantly to their CC ability, he was overcost, so he reduced the effectiveness of ravenwing. Instead we get to replace him with three very cost effective CC ICs which is a vast improvement.

Also if you haven't noticed this entire thread is about how OP ravenwing are, and you come in here "They are Fine, because there are worse things out there", the fact that there are one or two bike stars that can beat ravenwing doesn't mean it's balanced, AIDS is demonstrably less bad than Ebola, but I don't want either.

I also said:

No one thinks DA are cheesy because we can take an extra HQ choice, they think we're cheesy because we have a 2+ rerollable.

Adding in the minor benefit of a couple chaplains doesn't change the whole system, as if you really want some CC ICs you can run a CAD and take 2, a third isn't game changing. A dedicated CC unit won't care about a chaplain in the squad, they'll still steamroll the basic bike squads, and black knights can already hold their own against a number of CC units. Has a single person in this thread, other than you, said "they can take a third chaplain, so broken"?

Martel732 wrote:
Knights lose fancy overwatch if you make them jink.

i think there was a faq that stated that they overwatch at bs2 even if they jinked - at least we play it this way - might be a mistake.

Ironically ravenwing are an army my nids don't really struggle with.

They have a glaring downfall in that they have 0 ability to fight in CC.
So simply dragging them in is enough to cause them a lot of issues.

Eldar have the issue though that you need a fast unit to pin them down that won't get killed instantly.
So your jet bikes really aren't much use against them.
This is also one of the funny situations where shining spears would be useful lol.



All in all, your not going to shoot them off the table in low points games.
You would have to tailor an army to beat them but in turn, you would have a badly lopsided list.






On the topic of magnus.
It's 650 points that requires even more in extra models just to power him.
While he is good he is not top tier tournament stuff.
For less you can grab a tau tuna suit.
For slightly more you get a twin turbo laser hound.
Although with the cost in extra models to power him up, both models actually work out far more effective for their cost.

So he isn't game breaking by any means.
He is tough and can hold his own, but he requires far too many points poured into him with a list to suit, just to make him effective.

Just not really viable except friendly tournaments.

Jackal wrote:On the topic of magnus.
It's 650 points that requires even more in extra models just to power him.
While he is good he is not top tier tournament stuff.
For less you can grab a tau tuna suit.
For slightly more you get a twin turbo laser hound.
Although with the cost in extra models to power him up, both models actually work out far more effective for their cost.

So he isn't game breaking by any means.
He is tough and can hold his own, but he requires far too many points poured into him with a list to suit, just to make him effective.

Just not really viable except friendly tournaments.

The bolded doesn't follow. The fact that there are other OP things, and other things that are even more OP than Magnus, doesn't make Magnus not OP.

If you can put a unit on the table and say: "Ok, I'm going to consistently delete units from the table, and no, there's nothing you can do about it," then yes, that is precisely what I, or any reasonable person, would call OP.


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Also, Galef:

You play Eldar. You know that d-flamers ignore cover, right?

 Traditio wrote:

Jackal wrote:On the topic of magnus.
It's 650 points that requires even more in extra models just to power him.
While he is good he is not top tier tournament stuff.
For less you can grab a tau tuna suit.
For slightly more you get a twin turbo laser hound.
Although with the cost in extra models to power him up, both models actually work out far more effective for their cost.

So he isn't game breaking by any means.
He is tough and can hold his own, but he requires far too many points poured into him with a list to suit, just to make him effective.

Just not really viable except friendly tournaments.

The bolded doesn't follow. The fact that there are other OP things, and other things that are even more OP than Magnus, doesn't make Magnus not OP.

If you can put a unit on the table and say: "Ok, I'm going to consistently delete units from the table, and no, there's nothing you can do about it," then yes, that is precisely what I, or any reasonable person, would call OP.

None of Magnus's powers just delete units. They are all decent but not over powered. Also single unit that costs at least 1/3 of your army I would hope of can kill a unit or two a turn.

 Marmatag wrote:
Look at all these heretics. You killed one space marine, you should be honored.

Well it depends. It would be an utterly crushing strategic victory for an IG, Ork or Tyranid player. For Eldar... not so much.

 koooaei wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Knights lose fancy overwatch if you make them jink.

i think there was a faq that stated that they overwatch at bs2 even if they jinked - at least we play it this way - might be a mistake.

It would have to be an errata, not an FAQ, as the rules state "unless jinking, count their BS as 2 when firing overwatch". I doubt something would suddenly make them change their mind on how the rule works. Although this is GW.

Honestly, saves just should not be rerollable, period.

 Fafnir wrote:
Honestly, saves just should not be rerollable, period.

You don't fething say?

It's almost like someone has proposed this before...I wonder who it was, it's on the tip of my tongue...

...

Ah well. Whoever he was, he proposed that we just get rid of rerollables altogether, and he was viciously mocked/criticized for so suggesting.

Go fething figure.