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2017/01/17 16:48:04
Subject: Is Be'lakor the TRUE villain? [Warning: Possible references to AoS and WHFB]
Here are some thoughts I had today, I wonder what you guys think about it...
Before I get into this, I want to make a few things clear: i will assume that WHFB plays out on a planet OF SUPREME IMPORTANCE (due to there being Old Ones, Webway portals, eldar AND human colonists on it) but no the less in our galaxy. I will also assume that AoS plays out on Daemon worlds in the warp/webway that are being messed with by Sigmar and the Slann.
So this is what the 40k story looks like if we have Be'lakor as the antagonist.
Some time, long ago, on a planet inhabited by peaceful Old Ones and their reptilian and non-reptilian servants, a child was born. This can lead to several conclusions:
1) Be'lakor was a Proto-Eldar/Elf
2) Be'lakor was a Proto-Ork
3) Be'lakor is a Lizardman/Slann
4) Be'lakor is an Old One.
5) Be'lakor is a failed Old One experiment.
(Be'lakor could also be a Necrontyr or Hrud, but seeing as there were non on the World-That-Was i wont talk about them.)
The last two seem the most scary, and thus the most likely considering Grimdark and all that, so I will build up on them.
Be'lakor is an Old One
In this scenario, an Old One decided to betray its fellow Reptilians and dive further into the warp than ever before. In doing so, It discovered the three Chaos Gods (Slaanesh having not been born yet) and made a pact with them. Thus, the first Daemon Prince was born.
Be'lakor is an Experiment
In this scenario, the Old Ones create a creature that can contact the Chaos Gods, either to make an alliance with them or destroy them. It fails, and the creation is blessed with Daemonhood.
So now we have one Daemon Prince, who naturally is quite full of himself, creating Empires and ruling whole races just for fun, pretending to be a God, and thus pisses off Tzeentch, who robs him of his free will and humiliates him. Poof! One Daemon Prince now hates the Chaos Gods.
Time passes, and Be'lakor discovers the First Shrine to Chaos on his home world. He knows it is his duty to guide the Everchosen to its contents, and begins hatching a plan. By now, a new species has spread across the galaxy, calling itself Mankind, and has come to rest on this world. Some of the more northern humans have begun to worship Chaos, and Be'lakor tries to find one of them who could possibly enter the Shrine, so Be'lakor can have whatever is in there.
After many attempts, one Champion makes it into the Shrine and defeats the challenges within. Be'lakor sees his chance, but repents when he realises something (Warning: Somewhat random assumptions here: The gods already have a Champion, Abaddon, and this ones only purpose is to destroy the Old Ones world. Why, then, should Be'lakor just let him go? Why not make him The Everchosen of Be'lakor, and not Chaos... what if he, Be'lakor, will some day be hailed as the God of Chaos Undivided?
As you can see, most of this was guessed and assumed based on my personal take on the 40k/WHFB universe, and thus might not make much sense. Read it, i guess, but don't get mad if you don't understand it
In this scenario, an Old One decided to betray its fellow Reptilians and dive further into the warp than ever before. In doing so, It discovered the three Chaos Gods (Slaanesh having not been born yet) and made a pact with them. Thus, the first Daemon Prince was born.
The thing is, neither Khorne, nor Tzeentch nor Nurgle were born yet either. They were awakened by Mankind somewhere around the 2nd millenium (the same way the Eldar awakened Slaanesh in M21).
2017/01/17 16:58:37
Subject: Is Be'lakor the TRUE villain? [Warning: Possible references to AoS and WHFB]
In this scenario, an Old One decided to betray its fellow Reptilians and dive further into the warp than ever before. In doing so, It discovered the three Chaos Gods (Slaanesh having not been born yet) and made a pact with them. Thus, the first Daemon Prince was born.
The thing is, neither Khorne, nor Tzeentch nor Nurgle were born yet either. They were awakened by Mankind somewhere around the 2nd millenium (the same way the Eldar awakened Slaanesh in M21).
I was under the impression that Nurgle has existed since the birth of the first life form, Tzeentch came from the first personal desire, Khorne came from the first murder and Slannesh came from the Eldar.
Its also stated that Be'lakor was around before mankind, and thus Chaos was too.
Slaanesh's "birth" did cause the Fall of the Eldar, yet Slaanesh has always exited like the other 3. Time is not linear in the Warp, you see. In Belakor's ESTABLISHED fluff, he was a mortal that was dedicated to all 4. The Chaos gods had never elevated a mortal to Daemonhood before and Belakor was imbued with the powers of all 4, but due to this, he often manipulated events in "the great game" between them. Once the 4 realized this, the vowed to never to combined powers again, and thus every Daemon Prince since has been dedicated to only 1.
All this happened eons ago as Belakor has since seen the rise and fall of civilizations across the galaxy. Often being worshipped as a god himself He could indeed be an Old One, but considering how powerful the Old Ones are suspected to have been, I doubt it. The most likely candidate is some proto-humanoid that predates humans (obviously) or even pre-Eldar.
-
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/17 19:06:05
The old ones are the true villains in this story. Be'lakor is just a minor player as far as I know. Can you imagine fighting an intergalactic war vs a race who decides to dabble in the occult in such a manner that they warp an entire nearly harmless but most of all locked away dimension into a lovecraftian hell scape that reflects the nightmare of their reprogramme intelligent races and starts bleeding into reality.
Inactive, user. New profile might pop up in a while
2017/01/17 23:44:40
Subject: Is Be'lakor the TRUE villain? [Warning: Possible references to AoS and WHFB]
oldzoggy wrote: The old ones are the true villains in this story. Be'lakor is just a minor player as far as I know. Can you imagine fighting an intergalactic war vs a race who decides to dabble in the occult in such a manner that they warp an entire nearly harmless but most of all locked away dimension into a lovecraftian hell scape that reflects the nightmare of their reprogramme intelligent races and starts bleeding into reality.
My understanding was that that was an unintended side effect of the massive amounts of death and violence in the war. The Old Ones weren't really aggressors.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
2017/01/18 02:25:11
Subject: Is Be'lakor the TRUE villain? [Warning: Possible references to AoS and WHFB]
Galef wrote: Slaanesh's "birth" did cause the Fall of the Eldar, yet Slaanesh has always exited like the other 3. Time is not linear in the Warp, you see.
In Belakor's ESTABLISHED fluff, he was a mortal that was dedicated to all 4. The Chaos gods had never elevated a mortal to Daemonhood before and Belakor was imbued with the powers of all 4, but due to this, he often manipulated events in "the great game" between them.
Once the 4 realized this, the vowed to never to combined powers again, and thus every Daemon Prince since has been dedicated to only 1.
All this happened eons ago as Belakor has since seen the rise and fall of civilizations across the galaxy. Often being worshipped as a god himself
He could indeed be an Old One, but considering how powerful the Old Ones are suspected to have been, I doubt it.
The most likely candidate is some proto-humanoid that predates humans (obviously) or even pre-Eldar.
-
The Khorne/Slaneesh/Nurgle/Tzeench chaos powers are not the only chaos powers in the warp just the most powerful.
Galef wrote: Slaanesh's "birth" did cause the Fall of the Eldar, yet Slaanesh has always exited like the other 3. Time is not linear in the Warp, you see.
In Belakor's ESTABLISHED fluff, he was a mortal that was dedicated to all 4. The Chaos gods had never elevated a mortal to Daemonhood before and Belakor was imbued with the powers of all 4, but due to this, he often manipulated events in "the great game" between them.
Once the 4 realized this, the vowed to never to combined powers again, and thus every Daemon Prince since has been dedicated to only 1.
All this happened eons ago as Belakor has since seen the rise and fall of civilizations across the galaxy. Often being worshipped as a god himself
He could indeed be an Old One, but considering how powerful the Old Ones are suspected to have been, I doubt it.
The most likely candidate is some proto-humanoid that predates humans (obviously) or even pre-Eldar.
-
The Khorne/Slaneesh/Nurgle/Tzeench chaos powers are not the only chaos powers in the warp just the most powerful.
Or rather are the only warp entities with enough power to ever be considered relevant.
I thought Drachnyen was born of the first murder, not Khorne?
warboss wrote: Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
2017/01/18 13:21:32
Subject: Is Be'lakor the TRUE villain? [Warning: Possible references to AoS and WHFB]
n0t_u wrote: There should never be a god of undivided chaos, but since GW wants to pretend malal is gone it'd be good to have a new minor god of antichaos.
Before I get into this, I want to make a few things clear: i will assume that WHFB plays out on a planet OF SUPREME IMPORTANCE (due to there being Old Ones, Webway portals, eldar AND human colonists on it) but no the less in our galaxy. I will also assume that AoS plays out on Daemon worlds in the warp/webway that are being messed with by Sigmar and the Slann.
Yeah, here's the issue: GW has outright stated that they are DIFFERENT universes with no relationship whatsoever. So... yeah, the following it's worth nothing as a theory.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/18 13:22:50
2017/01/18 17:39:00
Subject: Is Be'lakor the TRUE villain? [Warning: Possible references to AoS and WHFB]
Galef wrote: Slaanesh's "birth" did cause the Fall of the Eldar, yet Slaanesh has always exited like the other 3. Time is not linear in the Warp, you see.
In Belakor's ESTABLISHED fluff, he was a mortal that was dedicated to all 4. The Chaos gods had never elevated a mortal to Daemonhood before and Belakor was imbued with the powers of all 4, but due to this, he often manipulated events in "the great game" between them.
Once the 4 realized this, the vowed to never to combined powers again, and thus every Daemon Prince since has been dedicated to only 1.
All this happened eons ago as Belakor has since seen the rise and fall of civilizations across the galaxy. Often being worshipped as a god himself
He could indeed be an Old One, but considering how powerful the Old Ones are suspected to have been, I doubt it.
The most likely candidate is some proto-humanoid that predates humans (obviously) or even pre-Eldar.
-
The Khorne/Slaneesh/Nurgle/Tzeench chaos powers are not the only chaos powers in the warp just the most powerful.
Or rather are the only warp entities with enough power to ever be considered relevant.
'Ere 'umie, Gork n Mork would like ta have a quiet word 'round the back with yez.
2017/01/18 17:49:36
Subject: Is Be'lakor the TRUE villain? [Warning: Possible references to AoS and WHFB]
[DCM]
Chief Deputy Sub Assistant Trainee Squig Handling Intern
Galef wrote: Slaanesh's "birth" did cause the Fall of the Eldar, yet Slaanesh has always exited like the other 3. Time is not linear in the Warp, you see.
In Belakor's ESTABLISHED fluff, he was a mortal that was dedicated to all 4. The Chaos gods had never elevated a mortal to Daemonhood before and Belakor was imbued with the powers of all 4, but due to this, he often manipulated events in "the great game" between them.
Once the 4 realized this, the vowed to never to combined powers again, and thus every Daemon Prince since has been dedicated to only 1.
All this happened eons ago as Belakor has since seen the rise and fall of civilizations across the galaxy. Often being worshipped as a god himself
He could indeed be an Old One, but considering how powerful the Old Ones are suspected to have been, I doubt it.
The most likely candidate is some proto-humanoid that predates humans (obviously) or even pre-Eldar.
-
Belakor - By your powers combined, I AM AN INTERDIMENSIONAL ARSEHOLE!
The Old Ones made their mistakes because their species was being exterminated. It's understandable. What the Necrontyr did? Not so much.
Dunno.
The Old Ones refused to help the Necrontyr with their issue. And went about populating the Galaxy (which arguably belonged to the Necrontyr, if indeed the Old Ones did come from elsewhere) with new species.
It's a matter of perspective from there. To the Necrons, other species are literal vermin, as unnatural as they are unwelcome. They're the true heirs to the galaxy, everything else is just an invasive species.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/18 19:58:51
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Before I get into this, I want to make a few things clear: i will assume that WHFB plays out on a planet OF SUPREME IMPORTANCE (due to there being Old Ones, Webway portals, eldar AND human colonists on it) but no the less in our galaxy. I will also assume that AoS plays out on Daemon worlds in the warp/webway that are being messed with by Sigmar and the Slann.
Yeah, here's the issue: GW has outright stated that they are DIFFERENT universes with no relationship whatsoever. So... yeah, the following it's worth nothing as a theory.
Lol, this old chestnut.
GW has...for right now at least ... established it as fact that AoS/WHFB is in a different universe than 40K....
But (because you sure as hell know they left themselves an Out... GW -ALWAYS- leaves itself an Out), they are unwilling to make the statement that These Two Universe are Wholely Unconnected.
Or to be incredibly precise, they are unwilling to make the statement that Universe 1 and Universe 2 aren't each connected to something which may in fact connect to Both Places (and More!)
This is the reason, for instance, in End Times fiction, there is apparently an encounter between Araloth and a titanic man in silver armor (:cough: Kaldor Draigo) while in the Warp.
In fact Araloth has a later vision in the Warp about a world ruled by a God-King.....
I thought this was all contradictory given previous statements made by GW, but an old member of the design team put it to me this way:
Chaos -is- Possibility. This is how the Ruinous Powers can "always be" yet at the same time have a specific moment in time when they had a birth.
2017/01/18 20:51:24
Subject: Is Be'lakor the TRUE villain? [Warning: Possible references to AoS and WHFB]
The Old Ones refused to help the Necrontyr with their issue. And went about populating the Galaxy (which arguably belonged to the Necrontyr, if indeed the Old Ones did come from elsewhere) with new species.
It's a matter of perspective from there. To the Necrons, other species are literal vermin, as unnatural as they are unwelcome. They're the true heirs to the galaxy, everything else is just an invasive species.
We don't know if the Old Ones could help them with their lifespan. The Silent King ended up starting a war of extermination principally so that they could have have an external enemy. Not sure what he expected to happen afterwards win or lose. The galaxy didn't belong to the Necrontyr; even if the Old Ones were from another galaxy there were still other species' evolving.
2017/01/18 21:00:07
Subject: Is Be'lakor the TRUE villain? [Warning: Possible references to AoS and WHFB]
Before I get into this, I want to make a few things clear: i will assume that WHFB plays out on a planet OF SUPREME IMPORTANCE (due to there being Old Ones, Webway portals, eldar AND human colonists on it) but no the less in our galaxy. I will also assume that AoS plays out on Daemon worlds in the warp/webway that are being messed with by Sigmar and the Slann.
Yeah, here's the issue: GW has outright stated that they are DIFFERENT universes with no relationship whatsoever. So... yeah, the following it's worth nothing as a theory.
Lol, this old chestnut.
GW has...for right now at least ... established it as fact that AoS/WHFB is in a different universe than 40K....
But (because you sure as hell know they left themselves an Out... GW -ALWAYS- leaves itself an Out), they are unwilling to make the statement that These Two Universe are Wholely Unconnected.
Or to be incredibly precise, they are unwilling to make the statement that Universe 1 and Universe 2 aren't each connected to something which may in fact connect to Both Places (and More!)
This is the reason, for instance, in End Times fiction, there is apparently an encounter between Araloth and a titanic man in silver armor (:cough: Kaldor Draigo) while in the Warp.
In fact Araloth has a later vision in the Warp about a world ruled by a God-King.....
Dude... the man in gray is a hallowed knight It's a stormcast that went missing during the realmgate wars. It's been confirmed a long time ago. Like, almost a year ago by now.
2017/01/18 21:15:10
Subject: Is Be'lakor the TRUE villain? [Warning: Possible references to AoS and WHFB]
Before I get into this, I want to make a few things clear: i will assume that WHFB plays out on a planet OF SUPREME IMPORTANCE (due to there being Old Ones, Webway portals, eldar AND human colonists on it) but no the less in our galaxy. I will also assume that AoS plays out on Daemon worlds in the warp/webway that are being messed with by Sigmar and the Slann.
Yeah, here's the issue: GW has outright stated that they are DIFFERENT universes with no relationship whatsoever. So... yeah, the following it's worth nothing as a theory.
Lol, this old chestnut.
GW has...for right now at least ... established it as fact that AoS/WHFB is in a different universe than 40K....
But (because you sure as hell know they left themselves an Out... GW -ALWAYS- leaves itself an Out), they are unwilling to make the statement that These Two Universe are Wholely Unconnected.
Or to be incredibly precise, they are unwilling to make the statement that Universe 1 and Universe 2 aren't each connected to something which may in fact connect to Both Places (and More!)
This is the reason, for instance, in End Times fiction, there is apparently an encounter between Araloth and a titanic man in silver armor (:cough: Kaldor Draigo) while in the Warp.
In fact Araloth has a later vision in the Warp about a world ruled by a God-King.....
Dude... the man in gray is a hallowed knight It's a stormcast that went missing during the realmgate wars. It's been confirmed a long time ago. Like, almost a year ago by now.
Wait they actually sucked it up and closed a hole! Finally!
Source Link me Please!
Eliminating that piece, there only remains the bit from Realms of Chaos with that Mage seeing visions of the 40K Universe but that can be punted to the side since we're in a new edition.
This pleases me greatly though if what you say is true - they are starting to have a backbone and willing to nail things down as facts finally.
Edit - Erp! Wans't Realms of Chaos, it was Liber Chaotica.. but for the life me i can't remember who was the character having visions of the Realm of Chaos both in terms of 40K and Fantasy...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/18 21:19:42
2017/01/18 21:25:09
Subject: Is Be'lakor the TRUE villain? [Warning: Possible references to AoS and WHFB]
I'll go take a look at the specific parts but as far as I remember I think it is either War in the Hidden Valley or the previous novella the gates of dawn where a contingent of stormcasts go into the realm of nurgle (hence the affirmation). There's one of the stormcasts that speaks identically to the way the armored giant in End Times did. EXACT SAME WAY. It's a silver armoured dude. It's not outright stated but Josh Reynolds only needed a chorus of Knight Heraldors chanting that the dude was the same person of End Times to make it more louder, considering the amount of "hints" he makes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/18 22:26:02
