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Hey dakka, I have a bit of a problem.
Someone I play with often has taken up the Tau, and always brings a competitive list in our casual games.
I play a casual imperial guard Infantry heavy CAD.
See the problem?
So I need some help either beating him, making my list competetive with his, or finding allies to play with against him.

Here's an example: Tonight we played a game where I was allied with a CSM player taking alpha legion (no formations) with two cultists squads, à lord, a mark of nurgle spawn, a chosen squad in a rhino and the chosen Champion rolled dark apotheosis. I had an inquisitor with power sword and three boltgun/power armor acolytes, plus loads of autocannons and infantry as usual. This guy took an optimized shots/point army with about 80-something strength 7 shots at BS 5.
First off, we didn't play a mission other than having one objective in the middle of the board, because the Tau player would not accept a mission that made it unfair for him, as he said.
He killed all the cultists turn one, brought rhino to one wound
Then killed all the chosen and left daemon prince with one wound.
So what should I do, guys?

Not play with him. He sounds like a tool.

 NoOneExpectsAnInquisition wrote:
First off, we didn't play a mission other than having one objective in the middle of the board, because the Tau player would not accept a mission that made it unfair for him, as he said.

There's your problem. Stop letting him whine and cry until you give him a mission he can automatically win.

Forgot to mention that he's my dad

 NoOneExpectsAnInquisition wrote:
Forgot to mention that he's my dad

Then I'd say you have a problem. You can either keep losing for the sake of peace in the family, cause a fight over it and take the consequences, or stop playing 40k.

Also, please identify what is giving him that much bs5, I play tau, and I smell bs

Marker light drones in every single unit he can, and then putting drone controllers on everything.

Oh-oh...
What does his normal list look like? Could you please post, for example, the sort of units and weapons he uses?

 Peregrine wrote:

 NoOneExpectsAnInquisition wrote:
Forgot to mention that he's my dad

Then I'd say you have a problem. You can either keep losing for the sake of peace in the family, cause a fight over it and take the consequences, or stop playing 40k.

I just want to make my army a bit more competetive against it, nothing so extreme.

 NoOneExpectsAnInquisition wrote:
[I just want to make my army a bit more competetive against it, nothing so extreme.

You aren't going to. Competitive Tau against casual footslogging infantry lists is an uphill battle at best. Allowing the Tau player to choose the mission and reject anything that they can't easily win means that you have no hope of victory. Just save yourself the frustration and give up now.

 NoOneExpectsAnInquisition wrote:
Forgot to mention that he's my dad

Wait....wait....wait...wait

Your joking right? lol

Also, in addition to his list/weapons/units, could you please post the list that you use against him? That's the only way we can help you become more optimized.

Peregrine is correct (of course). As long as you let him choose the mission, and tailor the field to his advantage, you're doomed.

 Verviedi wrote:
Also, in addition to his list/weapons/units, could you please post the list that you use against him? That's the only way we can help you become more optimized.

Peregrine is correct (of course). As long as you let him choose the mission, and tailor the field to his advantage, you're doomed.

His list is as follows as far as I can recall.
Riptide with ion accelerator
Cadre fire blade with two marker drones, has drone controller
Three broadsides with missile drones, broadsides with drone controllers, I believe broadsides also have high yield missile pods
6 man fire warrior strike team with support turret with sms
5 man strike team with support turret with sms
2 crisis suits with drones, not sure of weapons

My list us usually as follows
Compqny command squad with HB, sniper rifle, regimental squad t and a Rd

Platoon command squad with snipers and vox caster
Infantry squads x2
Special weapons team, demo charge, grenade launcher flamer
2 heavy weapon squads equipped with autocannons

Should I try out rough riders?
Also I know there's a points imbalance, I was all Ying with someone else.

Roll a d6 and pick a mission from the main rulebook. Or play maelstrom. That way sometimes the mission benefits him, sometimes it doesn't. That's fair.
By all means, bring a more competitive list, if that's what you want to do. Find a way to deep strike, outflank, or cross the board quickly and destroy him. This might require investing in a new army if that's your long-term goal. SM, GSC, etc. However, you should agree before the game starts what type of game you're going to play, casual or competitive. What unit types are allowed, etc. If your opponent refuses to play you because he can't easily win, don't play him. Even if he is your father. He doesn't own you.

 Cleatus wrote:
Roll a d6 and pick a mission from the main rulebook. Or play maelstrom. That way sometimes the mission benefits him, sometimes it doesn't. That's fair.
By all means, bring a more competitive list, if that's what you want to do. Find a way to deep strike, outflank, or cross the board quickly and destroy him. This might require investing in a new army if that's your long-term goal. SM, GSC, etc. However, you should agree before the game starts what type of game you're going to play, casual or competitive. What unit types are allowed, etc. If your opponent refuses to play you because he can't easily win, don't play him. Even if he is your father. He doesn't own you.

How should I go about making guard competetive? I know it can be done somehow.

 NoOneExpectsAnInquisition wrote:
How should I go about making guard competetive? I know it can be done somehow.

First of all, stop mixing special weapons. Generally your squads want either all melta or all plasma, things like that flamer/grenade launcher/demo charge squad are a waste of points.

Second, bring tanks/aircraft/artillery. A PCS with 4x flamers in a Vendetta is a great late-game scoring tool, keep it aboard the transport to keep it safe and then drop it at the last minute to claim an objective (with obsec!). Basilisks behind LOS-blocking terrain can murder crisis suits far more efficiently than your naked infantry squads. The AV 14 of your LRBTs is immune to everything in that list unless they can get into side/rear armor. Chimeras keep your squads from being instantly deleted by mass AP 5 pulse weapons. Etc.

But none of this matters as long as you let him reject any mission he can't easily win. If you somehow manage to buy a new army and beat him he'll probably blame the mission/"IG cheese"/etc and find a way to change the rules so that he keeps winning.

He's your dad? And he acts like this playing with his kid?

Name him.

So I should definitely take tanks and basilisks. I have a valkyrie that absolutely wrecks his list but it seems to make the games even more unbalanced than they are now. Are tauroxes any good? I used them for a while and they seemed to work. I'l work on getting him on board with random missions.

get in stuff that can psychic screech. I'd roll an allied grey Knights force, run terminators with a Libby, roll for invis. Get the primaris power and scream the feth out of them (this'll wrek smaller suits) use their low leadership against them, and if you hit invis you'll give him a mean time. If your guys CC up a storm surge you'll instantly Death through its lowly armor 3+. I'd start them out in a land raider as apposed to deep strike because interceptor

Overall, tau's biggest weakness is psychic stuff. Remember to lascanon directly into the broadsides and to try and focus them first.

A cadre fireblade cannot take drone controller.

 Jaxler wrote:
get in stuff that can psychic screech. I'd roll an allied grey Knights force, run terminators with a Libby, roll for invis. Get the primaris power and scream the feth out of them (this'll wrek smaller suits) use their low leadership against them, and if you hit invis you'll give him a mean time. If your guys CC up a storm surge you'll instantly Death through its lowly armor 3+.

Overall, tau's biggest weakness is psychic stuff.

I could run a mont'ka psykana division if psykers is what I'm after.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jaxler wrote:
get in stuff that can psychic screech. I'd roll an allied grey Knights force, run terminators with a Libby, roll for invis. Get the primaris power and scream the feth out of them (this'll wrek smaller suits) use their low leadership against them, and if you hit invis you'll give him a mean time. If your guys CC up a storm surge you'll instantly Death through its lowly armor 3+.

Overall, tau's biggest weakness is psychic stuff.

I could run a mont'ka psykana division if psykers is what I'm after.

 NoOneExpectsAnInquisition wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:
Also, in addition to his list/weapons/units, could you please post the list that you use against him? That's the only way we can help you become more optimized.

Peregrine is correct (of course). As long as you let him choose the mission, and tailor the field to his advantage, you're doomed.

His list is as follows as far as I can recall.
Riptide with ion accelerator
Cadre fire blade with two marker drones, has drone controller

This is an illegal loadout. Fireblades cannot have controllers.

Three broadsides with missile drones, broadsides with drone controllers, I believe broadsides also have high yield missile pods

Drone controllers have no effect on missile drones. This is also illegal.

6 man fire warrior strike team with support turret with sms
5 man strike team with support turret with sms
2 crisis suits with drones, not sure of weapons

Nothing to say here.

My list us usually as follows
Compqny command squad with HB, sniper rifle, regimental squad t and a Rd

Drop the useless SR and standard, give 'em meltaguns, put em in a Chimera.

Platoon command squad with snipers and vox caster
Infantry squads x2
Special weapons team, demo charge, grenade launcher flamer
2 heavy weapon squads equipped with autocannons

Stop mixing special weapons, take Plasma or Melta instead. Autocannons are fine, keep those.

Should I try out rough riders?

No.

Also I know there's a points imbalance, I was all Ying with someone else.

Don't worry.

 NoOneExpectsAnInquisition wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:
get in stuff that can psychic screech. I'd roll an allied grey Knights force, run terminators with a Libby, roll for invis. Get the primaris power and scream the feth out of them (this'll wrek smaller suits) use their low leadership against them, and if you hit invis you'll give him a mean time. If your guys CC up a storm surge you'll instantly Death through its lowly armor 3+.

Overall, tau's biggest weakness is psychic stuff.

I could run a mont'ka psykana division if psykers is what I'm after.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jaxler wrote:
get in stuff that can psychic screech. I'd roll an allied grey Knights force, run terminators with a Libby, roll for invis. Get the primaris power and scream the feth out of them (this'll wrek smaller suits) use their low leadership against them, and if you hit invis you'll give him a mean time. If your guys CC up a storm surge you'll instantly Death through its lowly armor 3+.

Overall, tau's biggest weakness is psychic stuff.

I could run a mont'ka psykana division if psykers is what I'm after.

Yes, but how will you deliver your psychic death squad directly to him? Basilisks won't last 3 seconds against all his str7, and you've nothing worth making invisible. You need something worth buffing or something that can get close enough to make their minds explode with thought bullets.

 Verviedi wrote:

 NoOneExpectsAnInquisition wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:
Also, in addition to his list/weapons/units, could you please post the list that you use against him? That's the only way we can help you become more optimized.

Peregrine is correct (of course). As long as you let him choose the mission, and tailor the field to his advantage, you're doomed.

His list is as follows as far as I can recall.
Riptide with ion accelerator
Cadre fire blade with two marker drones, has drone controller

This is an illegal loadout. Fireblades cannot have controllers.

Three broadsides with missile drones, broadsides with drone controllers, I believe broadsides also have high yield missile pods

Drone controllers have no effect on missile drones. This is also illegal.

6 man fire warrior strike team with support turret with sms
5 man strike team with support turret with sms
2 crisis suits with drones, not sure of weapons

Nothing to say here.

My list us usually as follows
Compqny command squad with HB, sniper rifle, regimental squad t and a Rd

Drop the useless SR and standard, give 'em meltaguns, put em in a Chimera.

Platoon command squad with snipers and vox caster
Infantry squads x2
Special weapons team, demo charge, grenade launcher flamer
2 heavy weapon squads equipped with autocannons

Stop mixing special weapons, take Plasma or Melta instead. Autocannons are fine, keep those.

Should I try out rough riders?

No.

Also I know there's a points imbalance, I was all Ying with someone else.

Don't worry.

I quite like sniper rifles, they fit my play style of keeping my command squad away from the action and sending my platoon command along with the charge.
Also the sniper is much cheaper than the meltagun.
Should I take a demo charge elsewhere, such as a squad like that in a valkyrie with demo charge, and two grenade launchers?
Also I'll bring to his attention the problems with legality.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jaxler wrote:

 NoOneExpectsAnInquisition wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:
get in stuff that can psychic screech. I'd roll an allied grey Knights force, run terminators with a Libby, roll for invis. Get the primaris power and scream the feth out of them (this'll wrek smaller suits) use their low leadership against them, and if you hit invis you'll give him a mean time. If your guys CC up a storm surge you'll instantly Death through its lowly armor 3+.

Overall, tau's biggest weakness is psychic stuff.

I could run a mont'ka psykana division if psykers is what I'm after.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jaxler wrote:
get in stuff that can psychic screech. I'd roll an allied grey Knights force, run terminators with a Libby, roll for invis. Get the primaris power and scream the feth out of them (this'll wrek smaller suits) use their low leadership against them, and if you hit invis you'll give him a mean time. If your guys CC up a storm surge you'll instantly Death through its lowly armor 3+.

Overall, tau's biggest weakness is psychic stuff.

I could run a mont'ka psykana division if psykers is what I'm after.

Yes, but how will you deliver your psychic death squad directly to him? Basilisks won't last 3 seconds against all his str7, and you've nothing worth making invisible. You need something worth buffing or something that can get close enough to make their minds explode with thought bullets.

Drop it out of a vendetta?

Don't bother giving the OP list advice.

Anything that helps him will just encourage the Tau player change the rules (illegally) to win again.

I think a lot of people on this thread are mistaking my dad not knowing the rules for him being a jerk.
His only real problem is that his grasp on overall rules and tau specific rules ARE a bit shaky.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jaxler wrote:

 NoOneExpectsAnInquisition wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:
get in stuff that can psychic screech. I'd roll an allied grey Knights force, run terminators with a Libby, roll for invis. Get the primaris power and scream the feth out of them (this'll wrek smaller suits) use their low leadership against them, and if you hit invis you'll give him a mean time. If your guys CC up a storm surge you'll instantly Death through its lowly armor 3+.

Overall, tau's biggest weakness is psychic stuff.

I could run a mont'ka psykana division if psykers is what I'm after.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jaxler wrote:
get in stuff that can psychic screech. I'd roll an allied grey Knights force, run terminators with a Libby, roll for invis. Get the primaris power and scream the feth out of them (this'll wrek smaller suits) use their low leadership against them, and if you hit invis you'll give him a mean time. If your guys CC up a storm surge you'll instantly Death through its lowly armor 3+.

Overall, tau's biggest weakness is psychic stuff.

I could run a mont'ka psykana division if psykers is what I'm after.

Yes, but how will you deliver your psychic death squad directly to him? Basilisks won't last 3 seconds against all his str7, and you've nothing worth making invisible. You need something worth buffing or something that can get close enough to make their minds explode with thought bullets.

Also as long as I hide my basilisks entirely they can simply indirect fire and probably do pretty well.

 NoOneExpectsAnInquisition wrote:
So I should definitely take tanks and basilisks. I have a valkyrie that absolutely wrecks his list but it seems to make the games even more unbalanced than they are now. Are tauroxes any good? I used them for a while and they seemed to work. I'l work on getting him on board with random missions.

You really shouldn't have to "get someone on board" with random missions. There is a genuine game mechanic specifically for random missions. A section of the rulebook dedicated to how to randomly select missions. Unless you're doing narrative play or a tournament that has a series of missions you should roll for mission. On top of that, there's maelstrom and tactical objectives, which should definitely be used at least occasionally to balance things out.

Playing one objective might as well be playing "kill the other guy", which is okay on rare occasion but is not how things should be done. Sure, you're playing an "objective based" game, but all you're really playing is purge the alien for the first 4 turns and seeing if anything survived to score. The whole idea of the game is that you can handle any mission, both in your list building and play, if you don't play the same mission every single time you can't tailor for it and you have to learn how to actually use your army. I'd genuinely say to them that they don't need a handicap if they're winning regularly.

If your dad really is that (angry insult words) that he doesn't understand that he's being a little kid about it, whining that the game's unfair if he doesn't get a clear handicap even though he's playing a top tier army against a mid-low tier one, your list could use a improvements.
As Peregrine said, avoid mixed special weapons. Guard units die fast regardless of what you do, so make sure they have one thing to focus on before they die. Flamers without a means of transportation are just a charge deterrent. Barebones infantry squads are only good at screening tanks and holding objectives, neither of which will happen in your current setup. Rough riders are not a good solution. They die just as easy as regular guard, trying to get a charge off against 2-3 units of overwatch and they're gone. They'll hurt the suits and the warriors but a squad of 5 isn't going to make it anywhere near them, especially if there's only a single objective to be worrying about.

Add tanks, a LRBT or a demolisher or a pask punisher. Wyverns are always good, 65 point model that can kill off the warriors and hurt the suits/drones.

Seriously though, I don't recommend going crazy trying to counter a list that has the handicap of only playing the ideal mission for it. Don't buy stuff for the sole purpose of winning this one game if you already like your list and don't want anything else. A game where someone is already playing handicapped and still loses usually results in a very unhappy camper.

No offense, but he is showing jerk behavior. Do you honestly think it is fair and reasonable that he picks the mission that he auto-wins?

Your dad is a jerk, stop playing with him.

Some awful advice here. Don't stop playing your dad.

If the mission really bothers you, why not suggest that you roll for a random one if you can't agree on a particular mission.

My dad used to beat me all the time at chess as a kid, but when I finally did beat him it was great (I don't think he let me win ).

That tau list isn't a competitive tau list.
The problem your having is your trying to engage tau in a shooting fight but are going all infantry yet not taking advantage of Taus weaknesses (no real anti psyker and crap cc capability)