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So with the recent FAQ ruling that you cannot take both a bolter and a shotgun on your Veterans, when/why would you use Deathwatch Shotguns? I absolutely love how they look on the kit and modelling wise, but I am honestly struggling to find a place for them in my army list building. I have a rather aggressive close range orientated squad, with Frag Cannons and Heavy Hammers, but I still feel better to have regular bolters on the vanilla Watch marines than shotguns simply because Bolters have a LOT better specialist ammunition choices over bolters and can contribute to firefights a lot better when nothing in range to charge yet etc.

It depends on what you're fighting, really. As a general rule the smaller the model count on the other side of the table is, the more you'll want the bolter for its high-powered modes over the shotgun for its greater volume and Wall of Death.

Also just generally when using close-in kill-teams that want to charge having Assault weapons is still useful.

Mhm, so say a Strat Command Team with Chaplain leading 10 Vets with 3x Frag cannons, 2x Heavy Hammers would probably want to replace the 5 bolters on other guys with shotguns? Oh.. also random off question, if a Watch Master joins said Strat team, do they lose their formation bonuses or is it just a case of he doesn't get the bonuses? Or heck, can an IC even join a formation Team?

That unit really doesn't fit in with any of my experience on how the Deathwatch work in the first place; I avoid 10-man Veteran squads because 300+pts for ten single-wound Marines tends to result in them disappearing in one turn because of a single lucky shot, and I don't put melee weapons on Veterans in the first place because they're paying IC prices rather than Vanguard Veteran prices. The bolters v. shotguns debate seems to me like quibbling over the curtains while the house is burning down.

My stock Veteran Squads are usually 5-6 models strong and run either two frag cannons and shotguns (for getting up close) or a mix of heavy bolters and normal/Stalker bolters (for standing off), I find having more of them is much more useful than having ten-man units.

(As for the formation benefit/IC thing every formation benefit in the Deathwatch book specifies "models in this Formation" rather than any reference to units, and therefore don't apply to ICs that have joined the unit. As for ICs joining units purchased in a formation you can always do that, unless there's a rule that tells you that you can't.)

ICs can turn off formation rules, though.

Martel732 wrote:
ICs can turn off formation rules, though.

ICs can't have any effect on any of the Deathwatch formation rules in the first place. All Deathwatch formations (apart from the Watch Company) are single squads, and every formation rule they've got applies specifically to "non-vehicle models from this Formation."

There is no way to interpret "non-vehicle models from this formation" to either apply to ICs who join a unit containing models from the formation, or for an IC in such a unit to have any effect on how the rule is applied.

Well splitting up my fire support squads I thought was sound but with my CQB unit I thought bigger the charge the better, thus it's a large 10 man squad support with Chaplain and Watch Master, that I also planned to put in a Corvus to make sure it got where it needed to strike. Also didn't see point getting Vanguards really as they pay same price for Heavy THs as regular Vets anyway?

I just wasn't sure if Shotguns were worth it over bolters as only benefit to me it seemed was they can still fire shotguns and assault, but in every other regard Bolters look better. Wasn't sure it was worth trading that for getting some shotgun rounds off before charging in.

The problem with the heavy thunderhammer is that it's stapled to a 52-pt T4 body in power armour, who has to sit and take fire before he can contribute to the game as opposed to a 47pt frag cannon Veteran that can explode things the instant it arrives from Reserves and doesn't have to give the enemy free hits back to do things. Your Strategium team is in the neighborhood of 400pts, and then you have to stick it in a 200+pt assault transport and pick on a unit that isn't that good in melee (i.e. not good enough to wipe a ten-man squad of T4/3+ bodies before the I1 step) for the 100pts of heavy thunderhammer models to do much.

They may look really cool, but you have to be playing a really, really casual game for the heavy thunderhammers to be anything other than expensive paperweights.

Vanguard Veterans preclude the use of transports (except for the Blackstar), but you get a dude with a power weapon (and a slight charge range extension) for 30pts, or a dude with a power fist for 40, as opposed to paying 37/47pts for a regular Veteran with the same loadout or one fewer attack and a bolter/shotgun. 7pts may not sound like much but everything in the Deathwatch is expensive/fragile enough and extra boltgun/shotgun bodies are good enough that cutting back on the upgrade costs and trying to force the enemy to worry about a lot of different targets is almost mandatory.

We may have things that look like deathstar tools, but you can't really build a Deathwatch deathstar. It's too expensive, too fragile, and the rest of the army can't handle the reduced budget.

I like heavy thunder hammers but they aren't for deathstars. They are for sneaky MSU tank hunter builds

 oldzoggy wrote:
I like heavy thunder hammers but they aren't for deathstars. They are for sneaky MSU tank hunter builds

Just like hidden Power Fists, the HTH does work in a squad meant for dealing with non-vehicles, but he does require a bit of meatshielding in front of him.

So i just Take Stalkers and Shotguns....
(Seriously, no one did this?)

 commander dante wrote:
So i just Take Stalkers and Shotguns....
(Seriously, no one did this?)

lol nice one

Gonna use combiweapon+shotgun now. No big deal.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
I like heavy thunder hammers but they aren't for deathstars. They are for sneaky MSU tank hunter builds

Just like hidden Power Fists, the HTH does work in a squad meant for dealing with non-vehicles, but he does require a bit of meatshielding in front of him.

At which point the problem becomes spending 22pts/model on your meatshields.

That said it has occurred to me to notice that Imperial Agents offers meatshields that can sit in a Deathwatch Veteran Squad without costing 22pts for a single power-armoured T4 wound, so my earlier statements on the subject (that IA offers nothing useful to anyone who's using the armies in it as their main force instead of as allies) may be not entirely true. The Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband formation may make heavy thunderhammers usable.

You used to be able to swap the CCW for a bolter, and swap your regualr stock bolter for a Shotgun. But the did FAQ that recently. My problem with my army is that I do not have many bolter only guys. The weapons are so cool! its hard for me not to build them

Guessing you guys all think Thundershields on vets is laughable suggestion for providing a meatshield for HTH guys as well then..? Sometimes I hate how I pick up an army with enthusiasm then going to the internet for advice makes me feel depressed and that all the cool/unique things are actually pointless. D:

GenRifDrake wrote:
Guessing you guys all think Thundershields on vets is laughable suggestion for providing a meatshield for HTH guys as well then..? Sometimes I hate how I pick up an army with enthusiasm then going to the internet for advice makes me feel depressed and that all the cool/unique things are actually pointless. D:

In an all-comers list they are, unfortunately. If you know you're going to be fighting an enemy you want to get into melee with who's got a small number of low-AP attacks (ex. Monstrous Creatures, Dreadnaughts, Terminators...) they've got a place, but one of the issues working with the Deathwatch is that some tools are just too expensive and too specialized to see a general-purpose list.

That said I am getting steadily more amused by the possibilities of the Henchmen Warband deathstar that parks a whole bunch of 4pt Acolytes and 15pt Stormshield-power weapon Crusaders in front of the Deathwatch squad.

Well, not just for melee but I thought due to how you allocate wounds to closest first for shooting too etc that 2-3 Vets with Stormshields upfront could soak a fair few of any potential AP3 or lower shots that might come their way as they close in? Especially as 10pts for a Stormshield is a fair deal to me I thought, especially as they can still keep their bolter or shotgun whilst having the Stormshield.

GenRifDrake wrote:
Well, not just for melee but I thought due to how you allocate wounds to closest first for shooting too etc that 2-3 Vets with Stormshields upfront could soak a fair few of any potential AP3 or lower shots that might come their way as they close in? Especially as 10pts for a Stormshield is a fair deal to me I thought, especially as they can still keep their bolter or shotgun whilst having the Stormshield.

I think this is a good idea, and I assembled couple of guys this way. I haven't used them in a game yet, so I have no idea how well it works in practice.

It's a question of how much AP3/2/1 shooting you're expecting, against shooting. Against AP4+ shooting the storm shield doesn't actually do anything (since you'd have a 3+ armour save anyway), and if you play on high-cover boards they're made partially redundant.

So it's situational. You may or may not see enough situations where they're helpful for it to be relevant.

Well, I usually try to make my lists "all comers" as I like to play that way rather than tailor build, and just thought having 2-3 Stormshields as a frontline to try and ease up some potential casualties when terrain might not be so abusable or enemy expects/brings a lot of anti-MEQ toys. I mean, if HTHs are so bad I should drop them i'd definitely put some of those points into Stormshields to make them abit more tankier regardless. x_x I just thought HTH was good to use as it seems to be only really reliable way to whack truely tough units like AV14 incredibly tough MCs. I mean, Frag Cannons at 12" are S9 but would still take a fair amount of them to bust AV14 with 3-4 HP or more?

I am disappointed too by Phaseblade. :/ That looked like such a cool thing but rules wise it feels so meh.. still modelling my sarges with them simply because it looks cool but bleh.

But to original subject, I got my answer mostly, shotguns over bolters in Kill Teams looking to definitely go close range.

There is a space between "absolutely general-purpose" and "list-tailoring" where you're taking/not taking things because of general facts about your local meta/play environment. You might be in a store with massive amounts of ruin terrain and you might not be using stormshields because you almost always have a cover save, for instance.

 AnomanderRake wrote:


The Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband formation may make heavy thunderhammers usable.

Wait is there any ruling on them allowing the inclusion of the Deathwatch models in the unit : D

 oldzoggy wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:


The Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband formation may make heavy thunderhammers usable.

Wait is there any ruling on them allowing the inclusion of the Deathwatch models in the unit : D

The formation lets you use a Deathwatch Veteran squad, Grey Knight Terminator squad, or Battle Sisters squad as part of the unit depending on the Ordo of the Inquisitor.

Whether you're actually allowed to deploy in your transports is still a question, but until it's FAQed out you can probably build a really big unit and Beacon Angelis them across the table if necessary.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

The formation lets you use a Deathwatch Veteran squad, Grey Knight Terminator squad, or Battle Sisters squad as part of the unit depending on the Ordo of the Inquisitor.

Whether you're actually allowed to deploy in your transports is still a question, but until it's FAQed out you can probably build a really big unit and Beacon Angelis them across the table if necessary.

Looking at the formation, all of the 0-X entries have a little “1” note next to them saying they need to be blobbed up into one unit with the acolytes. The inquisitor himself does not, and I don’t see that note applied to the chambers militant units.

I am reading a e-pub version on my laptop, and the zoom is not the best, so I might be missing something.

 Nevelon wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

The formation lets you use a Deathwatch Veteran squad, Grey Knight Terminator squad, or Battle Sisters squad as part of the unit depending on the Ordo of the Inquisitor.

Whether you're actually allowed to deploy in your transports is still a question, but until it's FAQed out you can probably build a really big unit and Beacon Angelis them across the table if necessary.

Looking at the formation, all of the 0-X entries have a little “1” note next to them saying they need to be blobbed up into one unit with the acolytes. The inquisitor himself does not, and I don’t see that note applied to the chambers militant units.

I am reading a e-pub version on my laptop, and the zoom is not the best, so I might be missing something.

We may need to check with GW over this. I'm seeing the same thing, but without the ability to join the Veterans to the Henchmen Warband there's no actual reason to use them in the formation (you could put the exact same unit in a Deathwatch Kill-Team detachment, no extra tax units or requirements to either detachment, but you get Aquila Doctrine out of it).

 AnomanderRake wrote:
We may need to check with GW over this. I'm seeing the same thing, but without the ability to join the Veterans to the Henchmen Warband there's no actual reason to use them in the formation (you could put the exact same unit in a Deathwatch Kill-Team detachment, no extra tax units or requirements to either detachment, but you get Aquila Doctrine out of it).

Deathwatch yes, but GK and SoB have more baggage with their formations.

 Nevelon wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
We may need to check with GW over this. I'm seeing the same thing, but without the ability to join the Veterans to the Henchmen Warband there's no actual reason to use them in the formation (you could put the exact same unit in a Deathwatch Kill-Team detachment, no extra tax units or requirements to either detachment, but you get Aquila Doctrine out of it).

Deathwatch yes, but GK and SoB have more baggage with their formations.

Sisters do, but you'd lose the Act of Faith if you stuck them into a combined unit so it makes almost no sense for them. For GK you've got the Daemonhunter Strike Force in IA that'd let you take that one Terminator squad (or an Interceptor squad) as a standalone detachment, and get Rites of Teleportation out of it.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
We may need to check with GW over this. I'm seeing the same thing, but without the ability to join the Veterans to the Henchmen Warband there's no actual reason to use them in the formation (you could put the exact same unit in a Deathwatch Kill-Team detachment, no extra tax units or requirements to either detachment, but you get Aquila Doctrine out of it).

Deathwatch yes, but GK and SoB have more baggage with their formations.

Sisters do, but you'd lose the Act of Faith if you stuck them into a combined unit so it makes almost no sense for them. For GK you've got the Daemonhunter Strike Force in IA that'd let you take that one Terminator squad (or an Interceptor squad) as a standalone detachment, and get Rites of Teleportation out of it.

Huh, reading the fine print FTW. One of the reasons I’ve been looking into this was trying to find a way to get an old squad of GK terminators on the field. I looked at the demonhunter formation with the dark “required” color on both the Troop and FA boxes and passed over it as an option.

Thanks for pointing that out.

 Nevelon wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
We may need to check with GW over this. I'm seeing the same thing, but without the ability to join the Veterans to the Henchmen Warband there's no actual reason to use them in the formation (you could put the exact same unit in a Deathwatch Kill-Team detachment, no extra tax units or requirements to either detachment, but you get Aquila Doctrine out of it).

Deathwatch yes, but GK and SoB have more baggage with their formations.

Sisters do, but you'd lose the Act of Faith if you stuck them into a combined unit so it makes almost no sense for them. For GK you've got the Daemonhunter Strike Force in IA that'd let you take that one Terminator squad (or an Interceptor squad) as a standalone detachment, and get Rites of Teleportation out of it.

Huh, reading the fine print FTW. One of the reasons I’ve been looking into this was trying to find a way to get an old squad of GK terminators on the field. I looked at the demonhunter formation with the dark “required” color on both the Troop and FA boxes and passed over it as an option.

Thanks for pointing that out.

The detachment's fine for taking a single random GK squad as an allied unit, but if you play GK as an army it doesn't actually do anything for you that the Nemesis Strike Force (full-size detachment in the GK book) doesn't.