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Hiya guys,

So currently I'm looking at getting a second 40k Army/ selling my Necrons to fund a new army as I just feel like running a smaller army, so was wondering if anyone more experienced could give me a run down on smaller more elite armies to help me make a choice.

Currently I'm thinking of allying Grey Knights & Deathwatch but have no idea if that'd work for me

Both grey knights and deathwatch are prime examples of small elite armies, but there are things to keep in mind.

Casualties will hurt like hell.
A battle cannon can essentially erase 300 points with 1 shot if your not careful.

Lack of firepower is another big one.
Due to low model count, your firepower is also on the low side.

Movement is key.
Both armies need to be close to be effective.
With personal teleporters, blackstars and pods etc this isn't a real issue, not to mention deepstrike.

Deathwatch are squishy.
They may be elite but it's still a T4 marine with a 3+
Only difference being it's more offensive as a unit and can be tailored to specific roles.
If the enemy is running low AP, make use of cover as all Casualties will cost far more than most armies.

Grey knights get most of their buffs from psykers.
If the enemy is running a null maiden task force, culexus etc you will need to shut it down immediately.
Knights without the use of these benefits essentially become useless.

If your allying deathwatch and knights, be sure to cherry pick units that are key.
A dreadknight adds a lot to a deathwatch army.
Since there is a formation that allows you to run an interceptor squad and a dreadknight, this gives you the use of 2 great units that help to no end without a tax unit thrown in.

Upgrades are expensive.
It's easy to get excessive on upgrades.
It's easily possible to make a deathwatch veteran unit 400 points through upgrades without a second thought.
As I said earlier, it only takes a battle cannon shot to end them.

Don't mix units.
If your unit has assault weapons, don't throw in rapid fire or heavy if you plan on getting into combat.
Shooting will prevent assault and assaulting will mean you have less shooting.

Try not to build a Jack of all trades unit.
You need to focus units on specific jobs, trying to fill all roles with a single unit will result in an expensive unit that can just about do each job, but not well.
3 units built for everything will cost more than 3 units built for certain roles, they also won't perform aswell.

With the exception of certain land raiders, you lack assault vehicles badly.
Considering this is where knights want to be and some deathwatch units too, it's an issue.
Using pods is great, but it leaves you open for a turn, and with small armies, you will lose a lot and quickly.

Multiple small units work well.
With a small elite army, I find it best to run as many units as I can.
This means it makes it harder for someone to justify dropping 3 units worth of shooting at 5 men.

Mistakes will cost you badly.
Weather it's a stupid mistake like forgetting to move or a minor one like not activating force weapons etc, these will all cost you dearly.
The armies are somewhat difficult to get used to, but once you do, it's good fun and vastly different.



That's just my thoughts on it anyway.
Played GK for a while and started deathwatch more recently.

I think an Imperial Knight can add much to an elite army of the above kind.
It has decent fire power and is mean in cc.

In the current meta Deathwatch do everything GK want to be doing, only better. GK provide (ironically) slightly cheaper line troops with worse firepower and mediocre melee ability, psychic batteries, and the Dreadknight, but the Deathwatch have the firepower to do the actual killing. It's a doable allied army, but you'd probably be better off allying either one with an army that gets around the problem of 20-22pt single-Wound basic Troops (the Inquisition is the iconic force for the purpose).

Some other available small/elite forces:

Normal Space Marines (also BA/DA/Wolves). Many of the upsides of GK/Deathwatch with few of the downsides. There aren't a lot of small-model-count competitive builds, and those that exist revolve around bikes/Thunderwolves, but if you're not too worried about tournaments there are a lot of places to take them.

Thousand Sons. I can't speak to the playstyle, having not had enough chances to see them in action, but they work around running small, tough units with strong psychic character shenanigans.

Swordwind. The Craftworld book exists at varying levels of competitiveness, from the Wraithknight/Scatterbikes at the top down to Rangers and Storm Guardians at the bottom. The Biel-Tan/Aspect temple army theme runs small glass-cannon units, brutally effective against their preferred targets but never able to settle down for a long firefight. The Aspects run from the tip of the competitive ladder to the middling rung, so you can adapt to most play environments with them (though you will have to work with Finecast sculpts and some of the oldest models around).

Harlequins. At 15pts/model small and elite by necessity. Brutally difficult but they can crack into competitive tiers if you batter your way up the learning curve far enough.

Farsight Enclaves. Tau, without all the pesky infantry that get in the way of having more battlesuits. Overarmed, endlessly customizable.


Depending on budget 30k armies may be worth considering:

Space Marine Legions. Using Primarch's Chosen or Pride of the Legion to run Veteran Tactical Squads, Terminators, and unique Terminator units in Troops they become almost the definition of 'small' and 'elite'. Use them if you want plain ordinary line Space Marine units with fairly basic weapons to do the sort of things the fluff says they're supposed to be able to, or if you want to see your opponents poo themselves when they realize they're facing off against Terminators and Dreadnaughts that aren't walking bad jokes.

Taghmata Omnissiah. All the giant robots that could have been in the 40k AdMech rules but weren't. Three-Wound T5 Jet Pack Thallaxii and four-Wound T7 Castellax in Troops, giant guns (including reverse-engineered Dark Lances), all the Forge World Knights, and the four-hull-point laser train of doom. The fun never ends.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
In the current meta Deathwatch do everything GK want to be doing, only better. GK provide (ironically) slightly cheaper line troops with worse firepower and mediocre melee ability, psychic batteries, and the Dreadknight, but the Deathwatch have the firepower to do the actual killing. It's a doable allied army, but you'd probably be better off allying either one with an army that gets around the problem of 20-22pt single-Wound basic Troops (the Inquisition is the iconic force for the purpose).

Some other available small/elite forces:

Normal Space Marines (also BA/DA/Wolves). Many of the upsides of GK/Deathwatch with few of the downsides. There aren't a lot of small-model-count competitive builds, and those that exist revolve around bikes/Thunderwolves, but if you're not too worried about tournaments there are a lot of places to take them.

Thousand Sons. I can't speak to the playstyle, having not had enough chances to see them in action, but they work around running small, tough units with strong psychic character shenanigans.

Swordwind. The Craftworld book exists at varying levels of competitiveness, from the Wraithknight/Scatterbikes at the top down to Rangers and Storm Guardians at the bottom. The Biel-Tan/Aspect temple army theme runs small glass-cannon units, brutally effective against their preferred targets but never able to settle down for a long firefight. The Aspects run from the tip of the competitive ladder to the middling rung, so you can adapt to most play environments with them (though you will have to work with Finecast sculpts and some of the oldest models around).

Harlequins. At 15pts/model small and elite by necessity. Brutally difficult but they can crack into competitive tiers if you batter your way up the learning curve far enough.

Farsight Enclaves. Tau, without all the pesky infantry that get in the way of having more battlesuits. Overarmed, endlessly customizable.


Depending on budget 30k armies may be worth considering:

Space Marine Legions. Using Primarch's Chosen or Pride of the Legion to run Veteran Tactical Squads, Terminators, and unique Terminator units in Troops they become almost the definition of 'small' and 'elite'. Use them if you want plain ordinary line Space Marine units with fairly basic weapons to do the sort of things the fluff says they're supposed to be able to, or if you want to see your opponents poo themselves when they realize they're facing off against Terminators and Dreadnaughts that aren't walking bad jokes.

Taghmata Omnissiah. All the giant robots that could have been in the 40k AdMech rules but weren't. Three-Wound T5 Jet Pack Thallaxii and four-Wound T7 Castellax in Troops, giant guns (including reverse-engineered Dark Lances), all the Forge World Knights, and the four-hull-point laser train of doom. The fun never ends.

You seem to know your stuff. In terms of Harlequins, I've heard they aren't all that good, would you agree?

In terms of Farsight, do you have an example of a list at all?

Harlequins needs you to be rolling near constant 6's to be a normal part of your gaming.

Otherwise, the learning curve is very very steep...

Besides Grey Knights and Deathwatch, Eldar can be run as an elite force. On top of that you can run pure Cult Mechanicus with knight support and have some success. Plus its still imperium.