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I've been running a couple games as vanilla marines, largely just tossing whatever I have (or a reasonable proxy thereof) on the table and seeing how it does, while slowly building and painting my main army. One thing I've been toying with on and off has been adding in a Grey Knight Strike Squad in as a kind of super-tactical squad, that would give me a little more shooting power and a lot more melee punch (so far haven't done much with assault, I just don't like it. But I think I'll need to do something to beef up that aspect of my list sooner or later), compared to what they'd replace (would have to trim out on of the tactical squads and maybe some rejiggering of the artillery park). And hopefully those big scary force halberds would make people send their assault units after the Strike Squad instead of constantly picking on my sternguards (granted, the Sternies have by an large succeeded in those melees, but it's still annoying to have to break them away from suppressing some IG heavy weapons teams to go charge a warboss and his retinue).

Is this a good idea or just a waste of points?

Since you are already playing unbound, why not take the Dreadknight instead? If you want something to take your opponents attention away from your sternguard, then the Dreadknight will do that and more.

 Arlen wrote:
Since you are already playing unbound, why not take the Dreadknight instead? If you want something to take your opponents attention away from your sternguard, then the Dreadknight will do that and more.

Several reasons:

1. Drawing fire from the sternguard is more of secondary, maybe tertiary thing. And after the last couple matches, including said victorious battle with warboss and co, I'm thinking people have figured out they're not fire warriors with fancy bolters and trying to fight them hand to hand is not a winning plan.
2. I don't like the model (I'm not totally sold on the GKSS models either, but I've got enough tactical and assault squad bits lying around to kitbash them into something acceptable. The Dreadknight's a lost cause).
3. It would be filling the wrong tactical role. I have tactical squads to take objectives. I have some Whirlwinds/TFCs for dealing with light/medium infantry mobs. I will at some point soon have a Terminus Ultra from dealing with tanks and MCs. What I need is something to screen those last two from stuff that can wreck there day, and deal with the high toughness multi-wound models the artillery and tactical can't. As far as I know that's not really what Dreadnight's do, at least not exactly. They're good for the really big multi-wound MCs and light armor, but I don't have to worry about the latter and the former is a minor threat compared to heavy armor, which isn't the Dreadknight's thing. At least not as much as I need it to be, being able to take out one Russ would be great if I wasn't faced with the prospect of fighting several of them.

If that's the case, why are you making such an expensive for points and CAD-breaking screen?

If you want a screen, go for Guardsmen.

 curran12 wrote:
If that's the case, why are you making such an expensive for points and CAD-breaking screen?

If you want a screen, go for Guardsmen.

I'm using unbound, but I'm still wanting to stick with space marines of some variety. Guard has the same problem my current tactical squads have, they can screen and they can take objectives, but they don't have the kind of the ranged punch I'm looking for and they don't deal with anything tougher than the guard or Ork troops as well as I need (Tacticals can hold them off and eventually eliminate them. I want something that can smash them fast), and multi-wound models are still an issue.

I'm growing more and more confused.

First you say you want a screen, but now they have to be monster hunters and elite killers. And have firepower, which is even more unusual for me since a Strike Squad's firepower is pretty darn terrible, a handful of stormbolters and one average special weapon.

 curran12 wrote:
I'm growing more and more confused.

First you say you want a screen, but now they have to be monster hunters and elite killers. And have firepower, which is even more unusual for me since a Strike Squad's firepower is pretty darn terrible, a handful of stormbolters and one average special weapon.

Sorry. I'm a new player, still trying to figures a lot of this stuff out.

I'm thinking of "firepower" in terms of a stormbolter getting two shots at max range vs a standard bolter's 1, as the idea I'm going for is staying with ranged units and using that firepower to keep the enemy out of charge range....which is also rapid fire range (or at least close to it) so bolters don't really do all that much. Stormbolters do.

And it's not that they need to be monster/elite hunters (that sounds more like actively chasing after said monsters, which I don't plan to do), they just need to actually be able to handle them if they somehow get in close, which has been a problem for my current setup. They will be doing some screening alongside my other tacticals, but that's just because they'll need to be doing something while the tanks get to work.

EDIT: I might also be misusing the term "screening", best to check. As I understand the term it refers to keeping a squad or unit inside the effective weapon's range of another unit and between that unit and the enemy, so the screening squad can block or at least engage enemy forces heading for the the unit they're screening, while being covered by the screened unit's own weapons. Is that accurate?

I am not the best for determining whether this is a waste of points, but I can tell you that you don't have to go unbound, at least. The Codex Imperial Agents has a Grey Knights detachment which can consist of a single Troop or Fast Attack choice. It's nearly identical to the requirements and benefits of the Nemesis Strike Force but doesn't even need a 150+ point HQ!

I would say try it out once or thrice and see if it works the way you want to play your army. Just know that GKSS are offensively slightly better at full range and in CC, but defensively they die just as quickly as tac marines.

 SkrawnyNob wrote:
I am not the best for determining whether this is a waste of points, but I can tell you that you don't have to go unbound, at least. The Codex Imperial Agents has a Grey Knights detachment which can consist of a single Troop or Fast Attack choice. It's nearly identical to the requirements and benefits of the Nemesis Strike Force but doesn't even need a 150+ point HQ!

I would say try it out once or thrice and see if it works the way you want to play your army. Just know that GKSS are offensively slightly better at full range and in CC, but defensively they die just as quickly as tac marines.

Huh, well that's handy if I ever go CAD on the main force (main reason I don't run it that way already is I don't want to spend the points on an HQ or fast attack, neither of which I get much use out of compared to heavy support and troops. At least not until the FLGS starts running larger games and I can fit skyhammer into a list), though at this rate I can't help but suspect 8th edition will end up dumping the FOC entirely.

And even if it doesn't end up working....meh, the models are cool enough, so it's not really much of a lose on that front.

 Arlen wrote:
Since you are already playing unbound, why not take the Dreadknight instead? If you want something to take your opponents attention away from your sternguard, then the Dreadknight will do that and more.

In this case, I would take an Imperial Knight.
This guy is less vulnerable against grav weapons.

 Battlegrinder wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
I'm growing more and more confused.

First you say you want a screen, but now they have to be monster hunters and elite killers. And have firepower, which is even more unusual for me since a Strike Squad's firepower is pretty darn terrible, a handful of stormbolters and one average special weapon.

Sorry. I'm a new player, still trying to figures a lot of this stuff out.

I'm thinking of "firepower" in terms of a stormbolter getting two shots at max range vs a standard bolter's 1, as the idea I'm going for is staying with ranged units and using that firepower to keep the enemy out of charge range....which is also rapid fire range (or at least close to it) so bolters don't really do all that much. Stormbolters do.

And it's not that they need to be monster/elite hunters (that sounds more like actively chasing after said monsters, which I don't plan to do), they just need to actually be able to handle them if they somehow get in close, which has been a problem for my current setup. They will be doing some screening alongside my other tacticals, but that's just because they'll need to be doing something while the tanks get to work.

EDIT: I might also be misusing the term "screening", best to check. As I understand the term it refers to keeping a squad or unit inside the effective weapon's range of another unit and between that unit and the enemy, so the screening squad can block or at least engage enemy forces heading for the the unit they're screening, while being covered by the screened unit's own weapons. Is that accurate?

No worries about being new.

That said, stormbolters are not that great of firepower. Yes, they have more shots, but they also sacrifice range to do it. If your stormbolter squad is firing at something, it isn't going to be very long before they are charged, or (more likely) shot to hell and back. Also, and the larger problem with this plan, is that a Strike Squad is very expensive for points compared to normal Marines, but are just as easy to kill. They are not going to hold back anything your Tacticals or Devastators won't do just as well. The one difference is the better melee weapons, but unfortunately, there usually aren't enough models to make those count. What you're doing is protecting your firebase with something that is as fragile and very costly for points. Points that could be better spent elsewhere.

From what I gather, your general tactic is that you want something to cover your firepower, basically buying time or counter-assaulting. But what you're trying to do with a strike squad is have a little melee power and a little firepower in one, which means you have a squad that doesn't do either thing very well.

If its an unbound list, I'd take Purifiers instead of GKSS due to their built-in psychic power.
You could mount 10 Purifiers in a Drop Pod and then let it combat squad upon arrival. In this way, you could apply the power twice. Ouch!

 wuestenfux wrote:
If its an unbound list, I'd take Purifiers instead of GKSS due to their built-in psychic power.
You could mount 10 Purifiers in a Drop Pod and then let it combat squad upon arrival. In this way, you could apply the power twice. Ouch!

They got rid of that in the FAQ. No sharing transports.

curran12 wrote:
No worries about being new.

That said, stormbolters are not that great of firepower. Yes, they have more shots, but they also sacrifice range to do it. If your stormbolter squad is firing at something, it isn't going to be very long before they are charged, or (more likely) shot to hell and back. Also, and the larger problem with this plan, is that a Strike Squad is very expensive for points compared to normal Marines, but are just as easy to kill. They are not going to hold back anything your Tacticals or Devastators won't do just as well. The one difference is the better melee weapons, but unfortunately, there usually aren't enough models to make those count. What you're doing is protecting your firebase with something that is as fragile and very costly for points. Points that could be better spent elsewhere.

From what I gather, your general tactic is that you want something to cover your firepower, basically buying time or counter-assaulting. But what you're trying to do with a strike squad is have a little melee power and a little firepower in one, which means you have a squad that doesn't do either thing very well.

How do stormbolters sacrifice range, it's their statline is the same as bolters except they have assault 2 instead of rapid fire? And yeah, I do see the issue with points, however given this is an overall casual atmosphere, I'm unsure if that high cost is going to be much of a downside since I'm not going up against a carefully optimized, WAAC list or something.

EDIT: And it's not like they're doing this alone, they've got two other vanilla squads (will likely vary between two tacs or tac and dev) backing them up, plus rhinos, with an autolas pred tagging along on general "keep baddies away from the Terminus and artillery" duty. If the FLGS goes from 1500 points to 1850, I can get an HQ,more whirlwinds and predators, maybe some airpower, and enough FA units to go CAD. These guys aren't that much more in comparison to everything else, but I'm thinking what they do bring is a worthwhile addition to the rest of that.

wuestenfux wrote:If its an unbound list, I'd take Purifiers instead of GKSS due to their built-in psychic power.
You could mount 10 Purifiers in a Drop Pod and then let it combat squad upon arrival. In this way, you could apply the power twice. Ouch!

Eh, not really a fan of psychic stuff. The fact I'll have to deal with it if I add in a GKSS is one of the big downsides to the unit in my mind.

The issue is with having these guys as a screen is that they're just as durable as any other PA unit. No FNP, no Invuln, no innate cover save. If their job is to screen, then you might as well get a Tactical Squad for cheaper.

A more effective screen is Guardsmen plus a Priest with Evicserator, because of the larger footprint. Throw in some Ordo Xeno Inquisitors with psychotroke grenades, and equip Sergeants with power axes, and that's a solid blob.

You could alos go with a Knight. That can deal with anything.

There's no reason to take a GK strike squad for my understanding of your purposes.

They will not kill monstrous creatures unless you get force off and are lucky enough that the creature doesn't haven't anything blocking instant death. The MC isn't going to charge THEM though, nor will it get into range of them to be charged. They're expensive, and you've said your entire goal is to avoid close combat, so the force weapons with AP3 are wasted points. Close combat is not something you do defensively either. I'd go with a tactical squad instead, or a sternguard squad, and just give the vet sarge a power sword. You get your AP3 for a couple attacks, and you still shoot perfectly fine. Keep in mind as well that GK strike squads are in no way a "super tactical squad". I know they seem like it, but they're not. You can get sternguard for the same point cost (if you upgrade to force halberds the GK strike would be more expensive, as those are upgrades from force swords). You could also have 8 tacticals for 2 points more than a stock (force sword) 5 man gk strike squad.

Can you please summarize your purpose in 2-3 bullets for us to ensure we understand correctly? Many of us are not sure we understand correctly/

 troa wrote:
There's no reason to take a GK strike squad for your stated purposes.

They will not kill monstrous creatures unless you get force off and are lucky enough that the creature doesn't haven't anything blocking instant death. They're expensive, and you've said your entire goal is to avoid close combat, so the force weapons with AP3 are wasted points. Close combat is not something you do defensively either. I'd go with a tactical squad instead, or a sternguard squad, and just give the vet sarge a power sword. You get your AP3 for a couple attacks, and you still shoot perfectly fine.

Can you summarize your purpose in 2-3 bullets for us?

1. Provide slightly better ranged fire than the other tactical squads can provide, since GKSS have stormbolters and psycannons.
2. I need at least one unit with above average melee capability, and a GKSS with Force swords/Halberds provides that.
3. I'd have to recheck how the psychic phase and deny the witch goes, but there was something about having your own warp charges that helped with that. Since GKSS generates those for free (as far as I know their point cost is about the same as a tactical marine, if the tactical had the same wargear as they do. Or i pay for the warp charges and get free weapons, doesn't really matter).
4. I'll likely be getting the models for my collection anyway, might as well find something to do with them on the tabletop.
5. I'm not specifically looking for anti-MC troops, just anti-multi wound models ones (Ruststalkers, Nobs, and I think Wraithguard), that force provides an extra edge against. I'm leaving MC's, should anyone bring one, to the tanks and artillery.

Thanks!

1. I think GK can slightly increase firepower, but you can get 8 stock tactical marines for the points cost of 5 stock GK(storm bolter and force swords, halberds are an upgrade), meaning within 12 inches much better ranged capability.
2. Only running one melee unit means it'll get cut down before getting into melee range.
3. They provide 1 warp charge, which means you get one extra deny roll (which has to be a roll of 6 to deny). That's frankly not worth worrying about, it's not enough dice to make a meaningful difference in the vast majority of situations. And again, they're more expensive.
4. I'd do them as interceptors instead, or Purifiers. Interceptors have mobility, Purifiers have a cool psychic ability. Keep in mind you'll need the GK codex to use them. You could magnetize for some variability in how you handle them.
5. Your tanks and artillery should be able to deal with multi-wound models as well. You have to get force off on the unit to be able to kill multi-wound models in CC, and that is not going to happen every turn (resulting in them getting munched instead of doing the munching). That being said...They'll die to most of those units at least as much as they'll win. I would shoot those, not CC them with power armor.

In the end...I wouldn't do just one if you're going to do them. If they're effective they will be the first units to die. I know they sound cool, but they die quickly, there's a reason so many GK players say leave strikes at home and use terminators instead.

Shoot the choppy, chop the shooty is an amazing motto to run with.

They can maybe harass some units, but frankly I think redundancy is amazing in this game, especially with melee and psychic (the two things the GKSS does). Maybe a small allied detachment of Grey knights with some more units? They can get that job done a lot better.

troa wrote:Thanks!

1. I think GK can slightly increase firepower, but you can get 8 stock tactical marines for the points cost of 5 stock GK(storm bolter and force swords, halberds are an upgrade), meaning within 12 inches much better ranged capability.
2. Only running one melee unit means it'll get cut down before getting into melee range.
3. They provide 1 warp charge, which means you get one extra deny roll (which has to be a roll of 6 to deny). That's frankly not worth worrying about, it's not enough dice to make a meaningful difference in the vast majority of situations. And again, they're more expensive.
4. I'd do them as interceptors instead, or Purifiers. Interceptors have mobility, Purifiers have a cool psychic ability. Keep in mind you'll need the GK codex to use them. You could magnetize for some variability in how you handle them.
5. Your tanks and artillery should be able to deal with multi-wound models as well. You have to get force off on the unit to be able to kill multi-wound models in CC, and that is not going to happen every turn (resulting in them getting munched instead of doing the munching). That being said...They'll die to most of those units at least as much as they'll win. I would shoot those, not CC them with power armor.

In the end...I wouldn't do just one if you're going to do them. If they're effective they will be the first units to die. I know they sound cool, but they die quickly, there's a reason so many GK players say leave strikes at home and use terminators instead.

1. True, but with a full unit of either, the GK's have much better shooting outside of 12 inches, and with a psyslincer or psycannon way better, since they can fire on the move and most of the special/heavy weapons the tacs have can't or aren't as good.
2. The idea would be keeping them at range and only going melee if something nasty has gotten through the fire from the tacks, artillery, other tactical squads, and everything else. I'm not planning on running them as a dedicated offensive melee unit, I'd get assault squads for that.
3. Ah, so that's how it works. Though on cost, they're only as much as sternguards, which I already run a squad of, so I could swap one for the other and come out with no net increase. Actually, I'd save a bit, since combi-weapons are 10 points and halberds are only 2.
4. Worth considering, it's more about how I like the models than anything else. In fact, aside from paint aren't purifiers and GKSS's identical?
5. Worth a shot. It's been an issue so far because I'm mostly running tacticals, rhinos, and maybe a captain with sternguard or something, so said mutli-wounds models are getting close in a lot of the time. I haven't had a chance to see how well bringing in whirlwinds and predators does to mitigate that, but since I'm planning on buying and building those before the GKSS, I'll have the chance to find out.

gummyofallbears wrote:Shoot the choppy, chop the shooty is an amazing motto to run with.

They can maybe harass some units, but frankly I think redundancy is amazing in this game, especially with melee and psychic (the two things the GKSS does). Maybe a small allied detachment of Grey knights with some more units? They can get that job done a lot better.

Maybe, but at that point cost I'd be running a GK army with SM allies, if the allies can fit in at all. Which isn't really what I want to do.

How many points are you playing?

 gummyofallbears wrote:
How many points are you playing?

Normal games are 1000 points due to general inexperience of all parties (of the 8 players, I think at least 4 are new, and two mostly play WHFB), and should expand to 1500-1850 once we actually get the 1000 point ones going faster. The GKSS would be for the larger games, they're too pricey to run in a 1000 point battle by themselves.

 Quickjager wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
If its an unbound list, I'd take Purifiers instead of GKSS due to their built-in psychic power.
You could mount 10 Purifiers in a Drop Pod and then let it combat squad upon arrival. In this way, you could apply the power twice. Ouch!

They got rid of that in the FAQ. No sharing transports.

Provided you play according to the FAQs.

Well, after my last game and first run in with a MC, I'm now much more interested in the GKSS/Purifiers thing than I was before. A Mawloc decided to pop up and visit my commander (A counts as lias issodon) and what was left of the tac squad he was. Despite having a 5 man sternguard squad make it in from reserves and start pumping rapid fire hellfire rounds into the damn thing, it still took two rounds of such, and would have taken three if a nearby guardian squad hadn't finished it off. I really could have used some force weapons, since it might have saved my command squad.

If a Mawloc threatens your army, then its better (as already said) to mount your infantry into transports.

 wuestenfux wrote:
If a Mawloc threatens your army, then its better (as already said) to mount your infantry into transports.

As a general rule, perhaps. In a 500 point teamed mini-tournament when I had no transports....not so much.

Take a death watch veterans kill team. Give one or two of them storm shields to absorb ap3 fire, the special ammo is very good and you can give the other units in the squad things like a death watch frag cannon, death watch combat shotguns and HEAVY flamers. Any nonsense that wants to charge them will get obliterated in overwatch by frag cannons and wall of death flamers.

Or just go with gk purifiers with incinerators and drop cleansing flame on top of the blob.

Also forgot to add the death watch kill team gets the Aquila doctrine bonus so they get a free reroll on wounds and on penetration results.

As for the gk dread knight you could and probably should use that... it is probably the best unit that gk have. With incinerator heavy psycho non access to force a personal teleport with a giant daemonsword or hammer and he's a psyker... i can't see why wouldn't want him.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Arlen wrote:
Since you are already playing unbound, why not take the Dreadknight instead? If you want something to take your opponents attention away from your sternguard, then the Dreadknight will do that and more.

In this case, I would take an Imperial Knight.
This guy is less vulnerable against grav weapons.

An Imperial Knight is also a great good option. I kinda recommended the Dreadknight because I thought he wanted to stay (more or less) within the space marine faction and their look a likes.
The Dreadknight is however a bit cheaper and with the personal teleporter upgrade better maneuverable then the knight, but is indeed a lot more vulnerable against grav.
It is perhaps the best one to fit his battlefield needs without going for a LoW.
It is just to bad that Battlegrinder does not like the model.

You could also go for a very cheap Skyhammer Annihilation Force formation, which might just do what you wanted to do all along.
It has some heavy fire support, combined with turn one assault squads.

Ceann wrote:Take a death watch veterans kill team. Give one or two of them storm shields to absorb ap3 fire, the special ammo is very good and you can give the other units in the squad things like a death watch frag cannon, death watch combat shotguns and HEAVY flamers. Any nonsense that wants to charge them will get obliterated in overwatch by frag cannons and wall of death flamers.

Or just go with gk purifiers with incinerators and drop cleansing flame on top of the blob.

Also forgot to add the death watch kill team gets the Aquila doctrine bonus so they get a free reroll on wounds and on penetration results.

As for the gk dread knight you could and probably should use that... it is probably the best unit that gk have. With incinerator heavy psycho non access to force a personal teleport with a giant daemonsword or hammer and he's a psyker... i can't see why wouldn't want him.

Hm, haven't considered using deathwatch, I'm not very familiar with their rules (aside from hearing that they're kind of a mess). Might be worth a look.

 Arlen wrote:
You could also go for a very cheap Skyhammer Annihilation Force formation, which might just do what you wanted to do all along.
It has some heavy fire support, combined with turn one assault squads.

Definitely planning on doing so, however the issue would be fitting it into a list. A bare-bones skyhammer is 450 points and change, while a full squad of knights is 230-300. Past 1500 points (or at that level and sans Terminus Ultra, depending on how useful it ends up being) that's doable enough. At 1000 points....not so much. Particularly when I run raptors with Lias, so getting dudes where I want them to be on turn one isn't an issue thanks to master of ambush (and infiltrate works with anything, not just devs or assault).

First off, take a look at Grey Knight Terminators instead of a Strike Squad. They're much tougher for not a large increase in points, and if you decide to give them a Psycannon or Psilencer they'll be allowed to fire it on the move. A good generalist build is one Psycannon and one squad member (not the unit leader!) with a Daemonhammer.