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What methods have we got to cause the death of a few of our own Pink or Blue Horrors and thus spawn an extra psychic unit?

Dogfight Phase is impossibly marginal, if we get to drop a crashed Flyer then we want it to be in the middle on the enemy army, not on our own unit.

Still... it could be amusing to spawn a few around a wrecked Transport and for them to contribute to witchfiring & blocking retreat for the survivors - and, unlike all these others, they can move in the next phase

Movement Phase is the best time for it to happen, as we get the extra WC straight afterwards. It presents rare chances to Ram and Vector Strike enemy vehicles that might blow up and catch a few in their blast.

Psychic Phase, we can use powers to try to blow up vehicles. We can have Horrors fire off level three Flickering Fire (or other high power stuff, luck permitting), which wants lots of charge to work, and hope for them to get PotW. Mediocre Ld means the sacrificial one has a reasonable chance of dying, but might backfire and overkill on a 1.

Shooting Phase, we can get them to Run up to vehicles - especially to mob Embarkation points - and then have another unit pop the vehicles. Splitting means that if or primary goal is to restrict the escape routes of occupants to enable a next phase charge, they're not a bad choice - if the vehicle blows, we've got an extra unit. The new unit will be placed after the inhabitants Disembark, so there's no shenanigans to be had getting the new arrivals to block an extra hatch.

If we have a bunch of Blast weapons in play, we can stand Horrors an inch away from an enemy model and let the Frag fly. We should probably be aiming for an enemy body count, but no harm if a bit of scatter helps us increase model count.

Assault Phase, we can Banzai charge with them. Actually not a bad idea if they join another unit's charge that has already engaged most of the target unit and restricted the Horrors to dogpiling one or two models - the enemy models they have Engaged are obliged to swing against them, giving a good chance of taking a few wounds whilst also letting the Horrors add a handful of dice to the melee. Hilarious if they're tarpitting a Chainfist whilst a Helbrute stamps on the rest of the unit. Again, as the new arrivals spawn at the end of the Phase, they arrive too late to block off lines of retreat if the enemy Breaks.

How did you not count using the Sacrifice psychic power

Good catch, a Lv 3 Herald is pretty cheap and it's low risk (to the Herald). Yeah, stab your mates in the back and create another battery for next turn

I'm not sure until when exactly psyhic powers last but you might be able to use Rupture. It causes an area to be dangerous terrain, so if it lasts until your next psychic phase you could walk through it/get hit by the initial blast. This would work well in combination with melee. You could cast this into an ongoing fight even. As you get casualties you could potentially spawn two more units like this before the next psychic phase.
Although dangerous terrain in any form could be useful. You're not going to be loosing a ton of models to it, but even just 1 model is an extra warpcharge. Well worth the "risk" imo. Does fortification barbwire count both sides? Or was that a cities of death thing?

Oh wow, Dangerous Terrain is a ruddy brilliant source of wounds. RAW you take each test as soon as each model moves into it. You are obliged to send Horrors in, one by one, and test each one to see if it dies. When one dies, you are not obliged by anything other than unit coherency to send anyone else following it. So, Pink Horrors camping in or near DT gives a near guarantee of an extra pair of BHs.

Place the spawned BHs the full 6" away and, come the Shooting Phase, you can have both units Run, generating another pair of Blue Horrors with their own Power and extra WC, AND the previous pair have approximately 20% chance of one of them tripping up and failing it's 5++ that re-rolls 1's to give you a Brinstone Horror.

Obviously, these shenanigans should never be attempted when playing for Kill Points. Excessive use may influence the metagame to make transports with small arms (looking at you, Rhinos) a handy way to take out a WC every turn (especially if a single model unit has a highly effective power).

But anyway, we now need to look at our potential sources of Dangerous Terrain! Rupture looks incredible - I'd go so far as to say that a Magnus Delivery System army should take a bunch of Geomortis guys as most of the spells have amazing synergy with him and a load of Horrors - it will last until your next Psychic phase, so unless the enemy Dispel it in their turn, you can first inflict splash damage on your own units (it targets a point and it's direct damage is indiscriminate), then they can run through the danger zone (see above positioning shenanigans), maybe charge through it (testing on the charge move AND the pile in, though remember you only Split at the end of the phase), and also maybe move through it in your next turn.

On top of that, Profane Ruination and Worldwrithe also offer the potential to hit several of your own units (the latter is a great Dimensional Key carrier), probably offering a better 'WC expenditure to WC batteries created' ratio than a Conjuration - with much less risk (for a mortal).

Let's not all rush out and buy a bucket of Horrors until we know where 8ed leaves us, though

Use beam psychic powers.

There is nothing stopping you targeting your own unit with a beam power as it specifically says you target a point on the table.

Be aware Tz models get a +3 Ld boost in psychic phase. So with a perils you have a 1 in 3 chance of surviving

Too lazy to look it up, but is fall damage still a thing? The classic 4th-5th edition Tau suicide ethereal strategy was to deploy at the top of a building then have the ethereal immediately jump to his death at the start of your first turn, granting the martyrdom bonus to your whole army.

Really. giving your opponent first blood and and extra VP. was martyrdom that good?

Well, what i do know is that Blue and Brimstone Horrors can roll on Malefic Daemonology (only Pinks cant as of the Warhammer Community FAQ, and dont go with the "It isnt on their profile" argument, if pinks couldnt take Malefic in the first place, why did GW release an FAQ saying that they cant?)

Dangerous Terrain is your best bet, sadly Daemons cant take Santic to get Sanctuary, as all Deamons within 12" take Dangerous Terrain

But hey, at least the Blue and Bimstones can summon more Pinks...

On the DT front good to remember wrecked vehicles are dangerous terrain so worth hopping your horrors over a wrecked rhino or 2

 commander dante wrote:
Well, what i do know is that Blue and Brimstone Horrors can roll on Malefic Daemonology (only Pinks cant as of the Warhammer Community FAQ, and dont go with the "It isnt on their profile" argument, if pinks couldnt take Malefic in the first place, why did GW release an FAQ saying that they cant?)

Dangerous Terrain is your best bet, sadly Daemons cant take Santic to get Sanctuary, as all Deamons within 12" take Dangerous Terrain

But hey, at least the Blue and Bimstones can summon more Pinks...

Doesn´t their entry only say change? Don´t have the book to hand.

I know the FAQ only referenced pink horrors but that was because pink horrors used to be allowed to do it because they were daemons. The new data-slates has removed that option and stated exactly what disciplines they can choose from "only change".

The faq tells us that pink horrors only get change.
The wording for pink horrors is identical to blue and brimstone horrors.
We can logically assume the faq applies equally to all horrors. It's an faq, which tells us how to interpret existing rules, not an errata making new ones.
The obvious thing to draw out from the faq answer is that for post 7th edition releases, not listing maelific daemonology is sufficient to explicitly assume a unit does not have access to it.

"Blue/Brimstone Horrors generate their powers from the Change Discipline"

If this specific doesn't trump the general open season on Daemonology, I'd expect an FAQ to correct it.

Sanctic Daemonology isn't terrible for a CSM Sorceror. Easy access to re-rolls reduce the number of dice that need to play doubles roulette. If he's accompanying Thousand Sons Terminators, Sanctuary also gives them a 2++. If he's accompanying non-TS Obliterators, it can stack with a cheeky Cursed Earth

 rawne2510 wrote:
Really. giving your opponent first blood and and extra VP. was martyrdom that good?

Those rules didn't exist yet when this was a thing.

Ordnance Tyrant could be another option

Captyn_Bob wrote:
The faq tells us that pink horrors only get change.

I've just scanned through the Daemon and rulebook FAQs and I can't find this change. Any chance I could get a page reference? All I can see is the amendment saying that all Psykers/Brotherhood of Sorcerers can choose Daemonology, but Horrors have that rule.

These are the facts:

-BRB grants access to all non-Nid, non-GK Psykers to roll on Malefic
-Daemon FAQ gives all Psykers (in that codex) access to Malefic, thus reinforcing the BRB
-Wrath of Magnus Horrors (all of them) replace the Pink Horror entry in the Daemon codex
-WoM FAQ says Pink Horrors only have access to Change

I think it is more than fair to say that Blues & Brimstones are not mean to access Malefic, but GW flubbed on the wording. A gentleman would assume no Malefic and just enjoy the 30pt D-shot or Chariot and move on. Split is a fantastic rule and more than makes up for not having Maliefic. Please stop trying to have your cake, and your opponent's cake, and eat them too.

-

The FAQ on Pink Horrors and Daemonology is here.

It's for Wrath of Magnus, not Chaos Daemons. I would apply common sense and assume that other entries for PH will be FAQ'd.

Hmm. If a Horror unit gets wiped out, they immediately spawn, rather than waiting til end of phase. Exploitable? Perhaps for spawning LOS or retreat blockers...

The most effective counter for these shenanigans is to pile on all three Horror types in a large melee and stamp on lots of Brimstone Horrors. Each base of them that gets ID'd culls another couple on the Instability test. So when placing BSHs, bear this in mind

Oh, so it's only associated with their new splitting rules. Do the new Wrath of Magnus rules replace the old Vanilla CD Pink Horrors? I don't own WoM, does that make pink horrors under the old rules unplayable?

Asura Varuna wrote:
Oh, so it's only associated with their new splitting rules. Do the new Wrath of Magnus rules replace the old Vanilla CD Pink Horrors? I don't own WoM, does that make pink horrors under the old rules unplayable?

The new rules are intended to replace the old ones yes.

 lindsay40k wrote:
The FAQ on Pink Horrors and Daemonology is here.

It's for Wrath of Magnus, not Chaos Daemons. I would apply common sense and assume that other entries for PH will be FAQ'd.

Hmm. If a Horror unit gets wiped out, they immediately spawn, rather than waiting til end of phase. Exploitable? Perhaps for spawning LOS or retreat blockers...

The most effective counter for these shenanigans is to pile on all three Horror types in a large melee and stamp on lots of Brimstone Horrors. Each base of them that gets ID'd culls another couple on the Instability test. So when placing BSHs, bear this in mind

Remember that you have to place all the blue horrors within 6" of the last pink horror.

And putting them in melee is a HORRIBLE idea, or should I say Horror-ble.

This is how that usually goes:
-Horrors lose a few models to enemy attacks - Split models are on "standby" to be created at the end of the phase
-Horror lose combat and have to take Instability
-Instability check removes the remaining models - no Splits occur AT ALL.

This is because of the clause in the split rule that says if a unit is completely removed by Instability, no models are Split. The Split models that were on "standby" can no longer be created, because there are no Pinks to be measured to at the end of the phase, and we are only able to place them "immediately" if the rule OTHER than Instability removed the unit.

The best way to get multiple splits from a unit is to hide most of the unit out of LoS, while some of the models are out in the open, taunting the opponent to shoot at them. They can only kill the models they can see, leaving the models out of LOS safe (unless the attack was a Blast)
You can actually get more WC from a unit it the Blues created get to 11+ models, without reducing that threshold form Pinks. The best way to do this is to have a Locus of Creation Herald + 14 Pinks.
Make sure 11 Pinks are out of LoS and 3 can be seen. When those 3 die, 12 Blues care created. The Pinks still generate 2WC, and you just created 2WC more.

-

incorrect. the models that die from combat still split unless you roll the 12



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hmm. re-reading that second bit does now throw it into confusion slightly. You are saying that they wouldn´t be placed only if the rest are lost to instability.

Asura Varuna wrote:
Oh, so it's only associated with their new splitting rules. Do the new Wrath of Magnus rules replace the old Vanilla CD Pink Horrors? I don't own WoM, does that make pink horrors under the old rules unplayable?

They replace the old rules, but only if you're using them. Nothing rulewise is stopping you from using the CD codex entry and its associated FAQ's instead of the WoM sheets. Some events may require one or the other, and you can't mix and match (i.e. have daemonology access and the Split rule at the same time - because they're different datasheets).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 rawne2510 wrote:
incorrect. the models that die from combat still split unless you roll the 12



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hmm. re-reading that second bit does now throw it into confusion slightly. You are saying that they wouldn´t be placed only if the rest are lost to instability.

Don't have it in front of me, but iirc the FAQ just says if they're "lost to instability," it doesn't specify a result, and taking enough wounds to kill the unit with an instability check would be "dying to instability."

That's right. In a normal situation, the new unit of Split models are either placed at the end of the phase, or immediately if a rule removes the whole unit.
Instability is the exception to the second part of that.

Therefore in the case of combat, you will end up having the models that died by enemy attacks, and models lost to Instability.

-The models that were Split by enemy attacks must wait until the end of the phase to be placed, we'll call this "standby"
-If the Instability test is high enough to wipe the survivors, whether 12 or lower, then no new models can be placed because we only have permission to immediately place new models from rules that are NOT Instability.
-At the end of the phase, no existing models are left to measure to, and the Split rule says all new models that cannot be placed within 6" are destroyed.

Ergo, the models that were on "standby" cannot be Split.

-

By the way, folks, please bear in mind I'm only advocating throwing Horrors into melee as part of pile-on where the most of the fighting is done by a decent CQC unit. The Horrors add a Standard and a bunch of weak extra attacks that hopefully neutralise their own light casualties (the strong unit or a third tough unit need to keep the enemy from piling on the Horrors) in the balance of results.

Given the demonstrated ability of Instability to prevent Split from occurring, the attack units absolutely must have a solid likelihood of achieving a decisive victory, and counter-charges in the enemy turn must be accounted for (this might be a good purpose for the new Blue Horrors).

 Latro_ wrote:
Use beam psychic powers.

There is nothing stopping you targeting your own unit with a beam power as it specifically says you target a point on the table.

Also works well for increasing Epidemius' tally: Str 6 or higher vs some sacrificial (and summonable) Nurglings if you're running Nurgle Demons of course.

They split at the end of the phase right? So if they are stuck in melee due to the enemy trying to wipe them with instability and fails for some reason you could still gain new units in other phases, like with rupture for example. Or beams or what have you.

The concern about Instability is that it can either finish off a unit with a few members left, or even remove an entire huge unit that lost by one and rolled a twelve. Either instance prevents the ones that got punched to death from completing their Split.

This is why Brimstone Horrors generally need to retreat and just hide away and quietly generate WC - a Gretchin can easily stamp one 2W model to death, pushing the result of a large complex melee against us.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PipeAlley wrote:
(Beam-based friendly fire) works well for increasing Epidemius' tally: Str 6 or higher vs some sacrificial (and summonable) Nurglings if you're running Nurgle Demons of course.

I like the sound of this. Pretty fluffy for Nurgle daemons to troll their Tzeentchian comrades

There's no Beam in Plague or Biomancy, but there is in Malefic - which is an obvious choice for an army that's going to generate lots of WC with Daemons. This leaves us with Daemon Princes, who can take a Telekinesis and exchange it for the Beam Primaris. It has S6, so it'll frag loads of Brimstone, but it has Strikedown, so be careful with where they stand. Two of the other Telekinesis powers are almost worthless on a flying Daemon Prince, so I'd just take the one. Telepathy doesn't have a Beam.

If the DP is from C:CSM, it has access to Pyromancy, which has a Beam that is too short ranged to be useful at this (and too strong to waste on friendly fire). Spontaneous Combustion can take out some Brimstones in extremely marginal instances that no strategy should rely upon.

Word Bearers Princes have access to one (or sometimes two) additional Malefic powers, which has nice synergy with all this - either really try to get Infernal Gaze or make sure you get Telekinesis' Beam, all with re-rolls for a Familiar and bonuses to cast Malefic.

All in all, seems worth bearing in mind if you're taking Epidemius and Horrors. I've recently finished a WB DP of Nurgle, it looks like Epidemius and a Plaguebearer blob - already tough to dislodge from Ruins - will be nigh invincible with a Horror blob sporting an Exalted Locus of Creation (for those who haven't read Magnus: double the number of Split spawns)