Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So, the Eye of Terror was formed thousands of years ago, long before humans leave Earth. Cadia is the only world into the Eye. And the Eye itself is a twisted region of space where nightmares and dreams alike become reality. Now I know that Chaos wasn't as strong as it is before Horus and the heresy, but; it still doesn't seem like prime real-state for humans to settle. Humans, however; are dumb and settled it anyways. Fine, I can buy that. What bothers me it after it's absorbed into the Empire, why were the humans left there? It's not like an empirer that destroyes whole worlds when the need presents itself would have any compunction with force resettlement of a single planet. That single world is literally all the holds back countless horrors from over running the galaxy and it's in-trusted to squishy humans? The best that the Astra Militarum I'm sure, but why not put a Space Marine chapter there? Like a whole chapter who's only job is to hold back the tide. Or give the whole world to those nuns with guns, yeah they are still human, but they have better states than the men. Adeptus Mechanicus could have filled the world with factories that produced death machines that move forward and shoot things. Best of all these, why not make it the home world of the Grey Knights? You want to fight Chaos for eternity, there you go. But, nope. None of these. Just normal squishy humans, set up for failure in a world where they slowly get over powered by creep.

I just don't think it was the best strategic decision made by the Emperor of Mankind, I know that he has made a number of mistakes, but; this one seems rather glaring. True, it did hold for 10,000 years, but still. We all knew it was going to fall.

1: Chapters at the time of the Great Crusade were part of the greater legion. So your question of "why not place a space marine chapter there" is a bit silly. Simply put, the Emperor didn't put a Space Marine chapter there because there was no reason to separate an individual chapter from its legion at the time. It wasn't until AFTER the Emperor was interred on the Throne that the Legions were split up in to independent Chapters.

2: A Space Marine chapter is inferior in raw holding power to billions of guardsmen plus their armour, artillery, and aerospace support assets. Simply put, if there had been only a Space Marine chapter on the planet, they'd have fallen SOONER than they did with an entire world of Cadians.

3: Marines regularly assisted the Imperial Guard with the defense of Cadia as elite rapidly re-deployable assets, because that's honestly what Marines are best at.

What Melissia said.

 Melissia wrote:
1: Chapters at the time of the Great Crusade were part of the greater legion. So your question of "why not place a space marine chapter there" is a bit silly. Simply put, the Emperor didn't put a Space Marine chapter there because there was no reason to separate an individual chapter from its legion at the time. It wasn't until AFTER the Emperor was interred on the Throne that the Legions were split up in to independent Chapters.

2: A Space Marine chapter is inferior in raw holding power to billions of guardsmen plus their armour, artillery, and aerospace support assets. Simply put, if there had been only a Space Marine chapter on the planet, they'd have fallen SOONER than they did with an entire world of Cadians.

3: Marines regularly assisted the Imperial Guard with the defense of Cadia as elite rapidly re-deployable assets, because that's honestly what Marines are best at.

Also.. Marines not with a chapter had no fixed assets.. So no one can mount a preliminary attack against. The ships are far more mobile and can be deployed to help defend nearby planets and bases too.

Yeah. Letting the Guard on Cadia be stationary defensive assets while the Marines moved about destroying high value targets was, simply put, the best tactical decision the Imperium has could have made for defending the Cadian Gate.

To add on to what Melissa said, the High Lords of Terra also created a group of Twenty Chapters (The Astartes Praeses) to defend against the Eye of Terror.

KayTwo wrote:
So, the Eye of Terror was formed thousands of years ago, long before humans leave Earth. Cadia is the only world into the Eye. And the Eye itself is a twisted region of space where nightmares and dreams alike become reality. Now I know that Chaos wasn't as strong as it is before Horus and the heresy, but; it still doesn't seem like prime real-state for humans to settle. Humans, however; are dumb and settled it anyways. Fine, I can buy that. What bothers me it after it's absorbed into the Empire, why were the humans left there? It's not like an empirer that destroyes whole worlds when the need presents itself would have any compunction with force resettlement of a single planet. That single world is literally all the holds back countless horrors from over running the galaxy and it's in-trusted to squishy humans? The best that the Astra Militarum I'm sure, but why not put a Space Marine chapter there? Like a whole chapter who's only job is to hold back the tide. Or give the whole world to those nuns with guns, yeah they are still human, but they have better states than the men. Adeptus Mechanicus could have filled the world with factories that produced death machines that move forward and shoot things. Best of all these, why not make it the home world of the Grey Knights? You want to fight Chaos for eternity, there you go. But, nope. None of these. Just normal squishy humans, set up for failure in a world where they slowly get over powered by creep.

I just don't think it was the best strategic decision made by the Emperor of Mankind, I know that he has made a number of mistakes, but; this one seems rather glaring. True, it did hold for 10,000 years, but still. We all knew it was going to fall.

Your first sentence is wrong.

The EoT was not formed before Humanity left Earth. It was formed at the Fall of the Eldar which was before the great Crusade which was AFTER Humanity had already spread out amongst the stars.

Cadia was settled by humans before the eye of terror was formed.

Humanity was expanding and colonizing while the Eldar were being all decadent and ignoring them. When Slaneesh was born and the eye was formed the resulting warp storms cut humanity off from itself. The great crusade with all the marine legions and such was about FINDING human colonized worlds and reuniting them, not colonizing new worlds.

Cadia was brought back into the fold.

KayTwo wrote:
So, the Eye of Terror was formed thousands of years ago, long before humans leave Earth. Cadia is the only world into the Eye. And the Eye itself is a twisted region of space where nightmares and dreams alike become reality. Now I know that Chaos wasn't as strong as it is before Horus and the heresy, but; it still doesn't seem like prime real-state for humans to settle. Humans, however; are dumb and settled it anyways. Fine, I can buy that. What bothers me it after it's absorbed into the Empire, why were the humans left there? It's not like an empirer that destroyes whole worlds when the need presents itself would have any compunction with force resettlement of a single planet. That single world is literally all the holds back countless horrors from over running the galaxy and it's in-trusted to squishy humans? The best that the Astra Militarum I'm sure, but why not put a Space Marine chapter there? Like a whole chapter who's only job is to hold back the tide. Or give the whole world to those nuns with guns, yeah they are still human, but they have better states than the men. Adeptus Mechanicus could have filled the world with factories that produced death machines that move forward and shoot things. Best of all these, why not make it the home world of the Grey Knights? You want to fight Chaos for eternity, there you go. But, nope. None of these. Just normal squishy humans, set up for failure in a world where they slowly get over powered by creep.

I just don't think it was the best strategic decision made by the Emperor of Mankind, I know that he has made a number of mistakes, but; this one seems rather glaring. True, it did hold for 10,000 years, but still. We all knew it was going to fall.

The eye formed 5,000 years before Big E started reuniting humanity throughout the galaxy.
When he did send is primarchs and space marines out on the great crusade, there was no real threat from the eye. It was a nasty part of the galaxy with a gateway into the warp, but there wasnt anything living in the eye, just daemons in the warp. Daemons dont use ships to access space, they can pop up wherever. Defending it wasnt that important.

Then during the horus heresy, big E gets crippled. Horus dies. Half the admech and tons of planets fall to chaos. The Traitor marines though do not head straight for the eye of terror when they fail to take earth. The civil war keeps going for 250 years in a period called the great scouring. As the traitors lose in that second part of the civil war, they eventually retreat into the eye, creating a huge threat in the eye for all of humanity. But by that point the high lords of terra are really rather skeptical of putting space marines in charge of the defense of humanity, seeing as just a few hundred years ago it was a space marine revolt that nearly killed the emperor and caused all these problems.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
To add on to what Melissa said, the High Lords of Terra also created a group of Twenty Chapters (The Astartes Praeses) to defend against the Eye of Terror.

This. There's 20 chapters assigned to Cadia! Pretty sure even Earth only has 1.

I don't think the Emporer sent anyone to guard Cadia. Not long before the Heresy began Logar made a journey to the eye on his quest to go on his knees in front of some mighty dude. He stopped on Cadia and met a primitive chaos corrupted civilization. One if them led him into the eye. On their return Lorgar had the planet bombarded of its life and went off to begin the Heresy. I can only assume that the Imperium of Man itself didn't control Cadia (or desire to) until sometime during or after the Scouring.

Also Cadia was not the only world holding back the Eye of Terror. If Cadia were to fall, the Eye would've started expanding. But there were other worlds that would've acted similar to Cadia and halted the Eye's expansion. Destroying those worlds was a part of Abaddon's prior Black Crusades.

jareddm wrote:
Also Cadia was not the only world holding back the Eye of Terror. If Cadia were to fall, the Eye would've started expanding. But there were other worlds that would've acted similar to Cadia and halted the Eye's expansion. Destroying those worlds was a part of Abaddon's prior Black Crusades.

also it's worth noting cadia was uninhabbited after Lorgar found it (he wiped out the human population), until after the first black crusade hwere it was resettled as a fortress world. where as it's said, it made more sense to have the guard manning it. when you're manning a fortress you don't need astartes for 99% of the task, they're honestly wasted in that role.

 Exergy wrote:
The eye formed 5,000 years before Big E started reuniting humanity throughout the galaxy.
When he did send is primarchs and space marines out on the great crusade, there was no real threat from the eye. It was a nasty part of the galaxy with a gateway into the warp, but there wasnt anything living in the eye, just daemons in the warp. Daemons dont use ships to access space, they can pop up wherever. Defending it wasnt that important.

Huh? I thought eye was formed when Slaanesh was born and location is where heart of Eldar empire was. And that fall happened at the onset of the great crusade. Before the fall humans couldn't DO crusade as warp travel was basically impossible. Emperor had been preparing for the fall of eldar and the moment it happened crusade was launched.

What caused eye to be born if not the fall of eldar then?

tneva82 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
The eye formed 5,000 years before Big E started reuniting humanity throughout the galaxy.
When he did send is primarchs and space marines out on the great crusade, there was no real threat from the eye. It was a nasty part of the galaxy with a gateway into the warp, but there wasnt anything living in the eye, just daemons in the warp. Daemons dont use ships to access space, they can pop up wherever. Defending it wasnt that important.

Huh? I thought eye was formed when Slaanesh was born and location is where heart of Eldar empire was. And that fall happened at the onset of the great crusade. Before the fall humans couldn't DO crusade as warp travel was basically impossible. Emperor had been preparing for the fall of eldar and the moment it happened crusade was launched.

What caused eye to be born if not the fall of eldar then?

Yeah

Humankind had created a vast empire amongst the stars before the Great Crusade. The Great Crusade was about reuniting the lost worlds with Terra.

The Eldars decadent ways were creating Slaanesh which was causing chaos and great storms in the Warp and led to the emergence of Psykers on countless human worlds. This turmoil is what ended the Golden Age of Technology and led to to the Age of Strife, then the Unification Wars, then the Great Crusade. The Birth of Slaanesh created the Eye, but it also calmed the warp allowing the Emperor to start the Great Crusade.

tneva82 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
The eye formed 5,000 years before Big E started reuniting humanity throughout the galaxy.
When he did send is primarchs and space marines out on the great crusade, there was no real threat from the eye. It was a nasty part of the galaxy with a gateway into the warp, but there wasnt anything living in the eye, just daemons in the warp. Daemons dont use ships to access space, they can pop up wherever. Defending it wasnt that important.

Huh? I thought eye was formed when Slaanesh was born and location is where heart of Eldar empire was. And that fall happened at the onset of the great crusade. Before the fall humans couldn't DO crusade as warp travel was basically impossible. Emperor had been preparing for the fall of eldar and the moment it happened crusade was launched.

What caused eye to be born if not the fall of eldar then?

Yes you are right. 1000 years, not 5000

Still during the great crusade, the eye was a smoldering pit of the once great eldar empire. No need to watch it. It's only when half your army turns against you and makes it their home that it becomes a security risk.

 Melissia wrote:
1: Chapters at the time of the Great Crusade were part of the greater legion. So your question of "why not place a space marine chapter there" is a bit silly. Simply put, the Emperor didn't put a Space Marine chapter there because there was no reason to separate an individual chapter from its legion at the time. It wasn't until AFTER the Emperor was interred on the Throne that the Legions were split up in to independent Chapters.

2: A Space Marine chapter is inferior in raw holding power to billions of guardsmen plus their armour, artillery, and aerospace support assets. Simply put, if there had been only a Space Marine chapter on the planet, they'd have fallen SOONER than they did with an entire world of Cadians.

3: Marines regularly assisted the Imperial Guard with the defense of Cadia as elite rapidly re-deployable assets, because that's honestly what Marines are best at.

All true, but if you allow me to nitpick a point, Cadia has a population of less than a billion. There is about 500 millions of people on Cadia, 75% of which are serving in a way or another in the Imperial Guard from cadets to kasrkins passing by logistical personnel. Cadia is nothing less than a planet size millitary base, training camp and forteress. There might be billions of guardsmen in the Cadian System which is composed of a few dozens planets, most of which are also forteress or agri-world to feed those soldiers. It wouldn't be far fetched to say that half of the Imperium millitary might stand on this relatively small battlezone.

It still would have been a good idea to permanently station an SM chapter there considering it's basically the watchtower against the Eye....

Kind of like the Imperial Fists and Terra.

I mean, technically Macragge has powerful Guard regiments as well, so it's not like the 500 worlds are defended by 1000 Ultramarines.

It would probably help having a Chapter strength Second Founding Chapter sit there with a permanent garrison, or even if they don't use it as a homeworld have a permanent garrison composed of maybe 10 different companies from 3 or 4 chapters on rotation.

They dont need a Chapter right there when they have 18 set up around there, not counting the fact that the Dark Angels are mostly active in that area, and Fenris is nearby.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
They dont need a Chapter right there when they have 18 set up around there, not counting the fact that the Dark Angels are mostly active in that area, and Fenris is nearby.

Yet the Dark Angels only had one company on Cadia and the Wolves never really got involved IIRC.

It was mostly the Battle Sisters and Guard holding the line based on what I was reading in the spoiler thread. Templars had a small presence and Legion of the Damned provided the other two lines.

That is a skeleton crew compared to the Space Marine response at Armageddon.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Third_War_for_Armageddon

25+ chapters? Compared to a skeleton crew at the Eye of Terror that led to the destruction of the most important Guard planet and guard tower to the Eye. Nice.

It was obvious that they did need a chapter there, or at least more local forces based on the fact that they lost the planet. The writers didn't even try to pretend that the SM were seriously involved at Cadia.

 TedNugent wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
They dont need a Chapter right there when they have 18 set up around there, not counting the fact that the Dark Angels are mostly active in that area, and Fenris is nearby.

Yet the Dark Angels only had one company on Cadia and the Wolves never really got involved IIRC.

It was mostly the Battle Sisters and Guard holding the line based on what I was reading in the spoiler thread. Templars had a small presence and Legion of the Damned provided the other two lines.

That is a skeleton crew compared to the Space Marine response at Armageddon.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Third_War_for_Armageddon

25+ chapters? Compared to a skeleton crew at the Eye of Terror that led to the destruction of the most important Guard planet and guard tower to the Eye. Nice.

It was obvious that they did need a chapter there, or at least more local forces based on the fact that they lost the planet. The writers didn't even try to pretend that the SM were seriously involved at Cadia.

They couldnt exactly have Cadia get destroyed if all the Praeses were there now could they have? They needed to be conveniently forgotten in order for their plot to advance, this is GW after all they 'forget' things all the time.

Also, here is the Order of Battle for the Original 13th Black Crusade.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/13th_Black_Crusade_Forces

 TedNugent wrote:

It was mostly the Battle Sisters and Guard holding the line based on what I was reading in the spoiler thread. Templars had a small presence and Legion of the Damned provided the other two lines.
That is a skeleton crew compared to the Space Marine response at Armageddon.
25+ chapters? Compared to a skeleton crew at the Eye of Terror that led to the destruction of the most important Guard planet and guard tower to the Eye. Nice.
It was obvious that they did need a chapter there, or at least more local forces based on the fact that they lost the planet. The writers didn't even try to pretend that the SM were seriously involved at Cadia.

That is what was left. Abbaddon's 13th black crusade was massive. It shredded through a huge chunk of imperial forces before the events of Gathering of the Storm: Fall of Cadia story even begins.

 Exergy wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:


That is what was left. Abbaddon's 13th black crusade was massive. It shredded through a huge chunk of imperial forces before the events of Gathering of the Storm: Fall of Cadia story even begins.

Indeed Fall of Cadia takes place after two or three years of combat after Abbadon's first wave of assault emerged out of the Eye of Terror to attack the Cadian Gate. Note that the 3rd battle for Armageddon is still raging at that point since it started barely a year before the 13th Black Crusade. Since the battle for Armegeddon diverted a lot of forces and exhausted a lot of manpower, it's logical that the Imperium couldn't muster as much forces as it normaly would. The fact that they also lost at least 6 regiments of Scions in a prehemptive strike in the Eye of Terror also tells a lot about the several mistakes and events that led to the Fall of Cadia on which Abbadon had no control.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:


They couldnt exactly have Cadia get destroyed if all the Praeses were there now could they have? They needed to be conveniently forgotten in order for their plot to advance, this is GW after all they 'forget' things all the time.

Also, here is the Order of Battle for the Original 13th Black Crusade.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/13th_Black_Crusade_Forces

That order of battle is cra cra.
In space, the IoM ournumbers the Chaos forces 4:1, but Chaos has 2 blackstone fortresses and 35 "other fleets"

Literally ever Chaos Legion is represented. Even Alpha legion, who operate outside the eye of terror and usually fight in disguise.

the Big E had nothing to do with Cadia, it was made a fortress world post scouring, so the Big E was on the toilet

 TedNugent wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
They dont need a Chapter right there when they have 18 set up around there, not counting the fact that the Dark Angels are mostly active in that area, and Fenris is nearby.

Yet the Dark Angels only had one company on Cadia and the Wolves never really got involved IIRC.

It was mostly the Battle Sisters and Guard holding the line based on what I was reading in the spoiler thread. Templars had a small presence and Legion of the Damned provided the other two lines.

That is a skeleton crew compared to the Space Marine response at Armageddon.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Third_War_for_Armageddon

That's problem with gw writing quality. They forgot lots of existing fluff about cadian forces. Combined with their bad numbers results in silly low numbers.