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Hey folks,

I noticed a few weeks back that the PDF for the Ork Dreadmob Army List had gone missing from the Downloads section of the Forge World website. I've e-mailed them, but was unable to coax out a response (unfortunate; they used to be so much better with this stuff!). I play a lot of ITC events, so I also e-mailed the guys over at Frontline, but replies from them on the subject have been similarly non-existent.

So, finally I thought I'd just bring it up on here and see to what conclusions the Ordz of Dakka might leap on the subject! It is of course impossible to say whether the PDF is being edited/updated and will eventually be replaced in the Downloads section, or whether a new edition of Kastorel-Novem's campaign books and their attendant rules will be released, or who knows what else. For now, all we can tell is A) Imperial Armour Volume 8 has long since gone out of sale on the Forge World website, and B) the Ork Dreadmob Army List PDF has recently disappeared itself.* With this knowledge, what do we do with the Ork characters Zhadsnark and Buzzgob? Would you still allow your opponent to field them in a pick-up, and should they still be allowed in Tournaments and other events?

I'm a die-hard Ork player, and I love Zhadsnark, so I'm personally very worried that Forge World have just unceremoniously squashed two of the best (and one of my favourite) avenues towards producing a moderately competitive Ork list. But, although it's exactly what I'm doing for the time being, I don't really like the idea that I'm going to events right now with models/lists that might not be "legal" in the specific context of the 40k tournament scene. I want to be clear about their status as much as possible.

*It is, of course, still perfectly possible to find the thing with a quick search of the Interwebs.

If Zhadsnark is no more that would greatly ruin my day. He is THA best Boss there is.

It's right here . . .

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Warhammer_40000/Ork_Dread_Mob_Army_List_Update.pdf

Oops

Did you find that with a Google search? Because I did mention above that you could still find it that way....

Look at the Downloads page on Forgeworld's website. Is there a link through to it under the list for Warhammer 40,000 downloads?

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Downloads

 orkdom wrote:
Did you find that with a Google search? Because I did mention above that you could still find it that way....

Look at the Downloads page on Forgeworld's website. Is there a link through to it under the list for Warhammer 40,000 downloads?

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Downloads

Doesn't really matter. It's GW produced rules so valid unless players themselves starts to restrict themselves. At which point asking strangers is useless. Official stance is: You can use it. Unofficially it funnily enough depends on your opponents.

tneva82 wrote:

 orkdom wrote:
Did you find that with a Google search? Because I did mention above that you could still find it that way....

Look at the Downloads page on Forgeworld's website. Is there a link through to it under the list for Warhammer 40,000 downloads?

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Downloads

Doesn't really matter. It's GW produced rules so valid unless players themselves starts to restrict themselves. At which point asking strangers is useless. Official stance is: You can use it. Unofficially it funnily enough depends on your opponents.

This is definitely a scenario where I would ask your opponents or the TO of any event you go to. Be prepared for a "no" response. My experience, having played these sorts of games for years and years and years is that people start getting really twitchy when you want to use rules that are no longer published/in print and were designed for a prior edition of the game. IA8 has been out of print for awhile. The Dread Mob pdf has been missing from FW's download section for awhile. It's clearly no longer available in any sort of official capacity.

My general rule of thumb is that if it's an in print/current product, you're good to go. If it's out of print, or otherwise unavailable to a new player... maybe not. A new player would never know to search for a specific file using Google. As such, it's not really available to new players.

Yeah, that's why I ask; I'm almost annoyed that the couple of responses here amount to a "eh, who cares, it doesn't matter"; if being able to find rules with a google search made them perfectly legitimate for all situations and against all opponents, I'd still be using the old Klan rules and Feral Orks, at the very least. They fit well enough within the current edition's framework, really!

I recall ITC's reasoning for disallowing the Iyanden supplement after it went off the GW site when the new Eldar book was released: simply put, if it wasn't available on a GW website, it wasn't usable.

But of course GW/FW don't care as long as you're buying their products. So it's down to the players, and in the case of ITC, it's down to TO's and the guys making the FAQ at the "top." Locally, they're letting me use it basically as long as ITC hasn't said anything about it. But I don't have much hope in the "long" run.

ITC specifically allows it. Buzzgob and his 300 point kustom stompa are still itc legal, as is zhadsnark.

 Kriswall wrote:

My general rule of thumb is that if it's an in print/current product, you're good to go. If it's out of print, or otherwise unavailable to a new player... maybe not. A new player would never know to search for a specific file using Google. As such, it's not really available to new players.

Can you buy old ghazkhtull supplement? It has stuff new doesn't that's legal to use...

tneva82 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

My general rule of thumb is that if it's an in print/current product, you're good to go. If it's out of print, or otherwise unavailable to a new player... maybe not. A new player would never know to search for a specific file using Google. As such, it's not really available to new players.

Can you buy old ghazkhtull supplement? It has stuff new doesn't that's legal to use...

I'm unclear as to what your comment was meant to convey. The words seem a little jumbled. I don't play Orks. What's the issue with the Ghazkhul supplement?

The old ghaz supplement has the greentide formation which is still allowed according to GW. However it's not part of the newer supplements orkurion so they didn't include it. They really should of just made it a core choice option.

The broader point being, I think, that even though a Supplement has been updated and re-released, rules which were written in the old edition of the Supplement and left out of the new remain "legal" for use.

Just like you can choose which rules you prefer for your Sisters of Battle, just like you can use Clan Raukaan instead of Angels of Death for your Iron Hands (and initially identical rules for each have even been FAQ'd differently!), just like you can choose your favourite rules for Inquisitors.

But don't you go using Iyanden!

One can no longer reliably take the rulings on any one part of the rules and apply their principle to any other part; there is no system, there are no principles, it's all just ad-hoc, case-by-case, erratic stuff, or no response at all, the main point probably being "just keep buying stuff" (at least when the point is being made by GW).

I like Zhadsnark, and I think, thanks to GW's veritable butchering of the Ork Codex, Buzzgob's Discount Stompa is an important part of keeping the greenskins [even remotely] afloat in the game as it "works" today, but I also don't think just being able to find something via Google Search makes it plainly fine for general use in a pick-up/competitive environment. Either the Dreadmob rules get re-posted to FW's site, or re-released in another fashion, or they really shouldn't remain accessible for use in public events.

All that said, I'm certainly not the one to make that decision, and so until ITC actually bothers to address it, I'm going to keep using my models the way I like. If someone doesn't know what they are, that won't be a really new sensation for my opponent anyway; there's way too much nonsense in this game to keep track of it all regardless.

 Kriswall wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

My general rule of thumb is that if it's an in print/current product, you're good to go. If it's out of print, or otherwise unavailable to a new player... maybe not. A new player would never know to search for a specific file using Google. As such, it's not really available to new players.

Can you buy old ghazkhtull supplement? It has stuff new doesn't that's legal to use...

I'm unclear as to what your comment was meant to convey. The words seem a little jumbled. I don't play Orks. What's the issue with the Ghazkhul supplement?

There's old ghazkhull supplement. NOT ON SALE. It has rules not available in the NEW version. Yet the stuff not in new version is usable(as even clarified by GW!).

So much for "if not currently in sale not usable".

Of course players are free to house rule as it is but OFFICIALLY if it's GW written then it's free to use.

If we are talking about house rules you then need to talk with your gaming group rather than random internet players as house rules are by very definition specific to the gaming group.

tneva82 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

My general rule of thumb is that if it's an in print/current product, you're good to go. If it's out of print, or otherwise unavailable to a new player... maybe not. A new player would never know to search for a specific file using Google. As such, it's not really available to new players.

Can you buy old ghazkhtull supplement? It has stuff new doesn't that's legal to use...

I'm unclear as to what your comment was meant to convey. The words seem a little jumbled. I don't play Orks. What's the issue with the Ghazkhul supplement?

There's old ghazkhull supplement. NOT ON SALE. It has rules not available in the NEW version. Yet the stuff not in new version is usable(as even clarified by GW!).

So much for "if not currently in sale not usable".

Of course players are free to house rule as it is but OFFICIALLY if it's GW written then it's free to use.

If we are talking about house rules you then need to talk with your gaming group rather than random internet players as house rules are by very definition specific to the gaming group.

My rule of thumb is still that if it's not available to a new player, it shouldn't be legal for organized/"official" events. It's pretty crappy when you allow out of print sources for one person, but not for another if the second person didn't buy it before it went out of print.