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Dionysodorus wrote:
I think you're assuming that the Warriors are between 15" and 18" from the enemy. If they also get to rapid fire with their splinter rifles then I believe the PPW numbers are 8.88 and 16.9 for GEQs and MEQs, respectively. That would make the Warriors about 50% more efficient on offense when they're at 15" and 50% more durable vs AP0 outside of cover (which is commonly going to be the case when you're trying to pick a target for 12" guns). You do not often see that kind of efficiency gap. I feel like at minimum you would want to consider spending a CP to deep-strike 20 Warriors before bringing shredder Scourges (and if you're doing this they can obviously be any Kabal).

I also don't think that the ability to guarantee a turn of full power shooting is a huge deal. It matters for Scourges, sure, because if they had to deploy on the table at an average of 15 points per model they'd get blown away immediately, and with decent AP weapons that they're even more vulnerable to relative to Warriors. But just in general you should only feel bad about things taking fire before they get to shoot if they're the best target for some of the other side's weapons. You're deploying something on the table, and your opponent's going to get to shoot at it; what does the rest of your army look like that you're unhappy that your opponent is shooting 24"+ guns at cheap Warrior units? Though this is why I'm leaning towards 0-1 special weapon per squad of 7-9 guys. The other issue here is that your Scourges don't get to do anything until turn 2. You can go second and lose a third of your Warriors before your turn 1 and another third before your turn 2 and the Warriors will still put out more firepower by the end of your second turn (and these are insane losses that I think are only likely with now-illegal mortar spam or deep striking).

I think blasters are a fine choice too, as is just running them naked. With blasters I think you definitely want just one per squad on foot to keep the average cost down as much as possible, and even moreso than with shredders you want Obsidian Rose so that you can shoot behind the front lines on turn 1. I've seen Infantry Squads with just a single plasma gun put in some work -- it feels really bad having to kill through a bunch of Guardsmen to shut up a single special weapon, but you can't just ignore it either.

That range bracket of 15-18" is the correct one to simulate though, as you need to take deployment distance and movement into account. With average deployment 24" apart and a 7" move distance you will at best end up 17" away from your target if you get first turn. Just about enough that you may bring the Shredders into range depending on terrain and assuming the opponent deployed right up front, but you won't get to rapid fire and you will only get a couple of squads in range at best.

If your opponent is just a couple of inches back, you won't even get the shredders in range until turn 2. With that in mind, Scourges deep striking turn 2 don't really lose out on much shooting vs the Kabalites, but they do get a turn of protection and a favorable position to drop to.

Here's what I'm looking at as a tournament competitive Dark Eldar list (OK, officially, it's mostly Ynnari, but there is exactly one non-Dark Eldar model in the list, let's be real here we're using the Ynnari rules to gain a competitive advantage for Dark Eldar)

Ynnari Battalion Detachment (All Kabal units Black Heart)

Yvraine (warlord)
Archon with Venom Blade, Writ of the Living Muse, splinter pistol, Phantasm

5x Kabals with Shredder
5x Kabals with Shredder
5x Kabals with Shredder

Venom with TL splinter
Venom with TL splinter
Venom with TL splinter

Raider with Dissie
Raider with Dissie

Ravager with Dissie
Ravager with Dissie

RWJF with Dark Lances, TL splinter (Flayed Skull)
RWJF with Dark Lances, TL splinter (Flayed Skull)

12x Reaver Jetbikes, 3x Grav-Talons, always +A drugs (Cult of Strife)

Red Grief Battalion Detachment

Succubus, Blood Glaive, Splinter Pistol, +S Drugs
Succubus, Shardnet+Impaler, +MOV drugs

9x wyches with Shardnet, +WS drugs
9x wyches with Shardnet, +MOV drugs
10x Wyches with Shardnet+2 Hydra, +A drugs

Raider with Dissie

3x Reaver Jetbikes, +LD drugs
3x Reaver Jetbikes, +T drugs

List Concept: Intended to counter a skew towards heavy gunline with scouting or infiltrating screens brought about by the new anti-DS FAQ. Thanks to the new Ynnari FAQ, I have access to the coveted Agents of Vect stratagem, while also enabling my Ynnari Reavers to pop No Method of Death for turn 1 screen evisceration.

I have one Raider, three Reaver squads, one succubus, and one wych squad that can get across no man's land extremely reliably turn 1 to charge, with many of those units having fly. Any Sentinels, nurgling units, or Scouts will be charged by exactly one wych with the rest staying out of attack range and doing their best to encircle the unit (I don't even need to with Scouts, stealth suits, or Rangers, with standard Nurgling and Sentinel units its extremely easy for me to encircle and I don't need to be as cautious about attacking with less of my unit). Shardnet prevents fallback 80% of the time vs infantry, and then on my next turn they'll be ready to advance right up the field.

When I lose turn 1, I'm assuming a gunline opponent is going to be smart enough to realize my 12-man reaver squad is the big threat. Lightning Reflexes and Hunt from the Shadows are no-brainer burns to try and keep them alive with 2+sv and -1 to hit. If they give up after I pop those and shoot different targets, the majority of my turn 1 strategy still works. Everything else in the list is pretty much redundant.

In the matchup vs turn 1 chargers myself, a sacrificial wych screen and 2 RWJF bases are the best I've got to hold against the rest of the army. That and my transports being really difficult to surround, with Fly, and the ability to stand nose-to-tail easily to prevent encircling. The list is designed for a theoretical gunline meta, I'm not under any delusions that it's the perfect TAC.

Lithanial wrote:

That range bracket of 15-18" is the correct one to simulate though, as you need to take deployment distance and movement into account. With average deployment 24" apart and a 7" move distance you will at best end up 17" away from your target if you get first turn. Just about enough that you may bring the Shredders into range depending on terrain and assuming the opponent deployed right up front, but you won't get to rapid fire and you will only get a couple of squads in range at best.

If your opponent is just a couple of inches back, you won't even get the shredders in range until turn 2. With that in mind, Scourges deep striking turn 2 don't really lose out on much shooting vs the Kabalites, but they do get a turn of protection and a favorable position to drop to.

Sure, for turn 1 that's reasonable (edit: unless your opponent has scouts or infiltrators). I was just pointing out that in addition to their turn 1 shooting, which is a pure advantage for the Warriors since you're pretty happy to be able to shoot with them on turn 1 in exchange for allowing them to get shot at, Warriors are probably going to be a lot more efficient than the Scourges on turn 2, when the Scourges actually show up. And you even have the option of deep-striking a huge group of Warriors instead of taking the Scourges if you really want to be able to drop an anti-infantry squad wherever you want.

Oh, I've got another question - are we allowed to take Splinter Pistols on Haemonculi now (via the Index) or not?

I ask because the flowchart says that we have access to Index options, but technically the Splinter Pistol wasn't an option - it was the default pistol.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

The more i play Coven the more i like them, i really enjoy the Grots and Talos, ive been playing with 9 Grots and 3 Talos with Urien (for the +1S), 3x3 Grot units and 1 Talos unit of 3 (for stratagems like Fire and Fade, and The Torturer's Craft) b.c stratagems works better on larger units.

I dont like Wracks unless im taking 40+ of them and 0 Kabals, they just dont do any damage, they are just tough guys that gets in the way, if you have Kabals i dont see the need for Wracks.

I have the same feeling about Wracks.

Okay, I'll try Coven then. I'll probably have to stick with 2 units of 3 Grotesques for now, as that's all the models I have.

Cheers.

Talos and grotesques are definitely underrated. If you bring lots of them with Urien's buffs they can be really good.

I'm regularly fielding 8 grotesques and 6 talos, and I'm really enjoying my monsers. I haven't tried the cronos yet which seems a bit lackluster but it would allow me to take 2x3 talos instead of 3x2 talos in the coven spearhead and I'd prefer two units instead of three. But basically for a matter of bonus range since even with all my 14 monsters (15 with the cronos) I just need to have 4 of them near Urien. Even 3 if I bring the cronos since no one would shoot it when I have grots, talos, kabalites in venoms and ravagers.

I was talking about this over on thedarkcity and wanted to talk here as well.

There is another idea for Cronos, the value of many cheap units. Theya re 70pts, sure they dont do much damage, but the point is they are so cheap you can take about 28% your army in points and have such a heavy anvil they cant crack it. Take 9 at 630pts (for the Spirit probe) That is 63 T6/7 wounds with a 4++/6+++

Lets do some math
Assuming Re-roll 1's to hit

146 Plasma Over charging shots
84 Lascannon shots

Dont forget in CC they can heal 1 wound as well per Cronos.

I haven't been too impressed with Talos yet. I took a unit of 3 to a 26 player event this last saturday and in 2 out of 3 rounds they were killed in the first turn. I still got first place, but it was more on the backs of my grots and vehicles than the talos. I'm of the opinion grotesque are the more efficient choice and being infantry they're a bit easier to hide in buildings and get out of LOS when you need to too.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
I haven't been too impressed with Talos yet. I took a unit of 3 to a 26 player event this last saturday and in 2 out of 3 rounds they were killed in the first turn. I still got first place, but it was more on the backs of my grots and vehicles than the talos. I'm of the opinion grotesque are the more efficient choice and being infantry they're a bit easier to hide in buildings and get out of LOS when you need to too.

Talos are my MVP's atm.

And how many turns and shots did they fire at them? Something HAS to die, if your Grots were killed instead your Talos would most likely have done a lot better, or if your Ravagers died 1st, etc... 3 Talos is 21 T7 4++/6+++ wounds, thats a LOT to kill them, we are talking about full army shooting.

Against Dark Reapers with an Autarch for re-roll 1's, a 3 unit of Talos will eat 56 shots, if someone takes a Ynnari unit of 9 and double shoots them for 18 shots, there is a chance they dont kill a Talos.

Grots are actually super-durable. They're paying 8.75 points per T5 4++/6+++ wound, and they sometimes get overkilled by d6 damage weapons. Even the cheapest Cronos is still paying 9.28 ppw, and the only advantages it gets over Grots are a point of toughness and a 3+ save, while being basically useless offensively. A Talos with haywire blasters is a whopping 14.14 ppw.

A Cronos looks pretty durable next to most other things in the game -- it's sturdier than a pre-FAQ Leviathan flyrant -- but Grots have them beat, and do decently in CC too. I don't think I'd look too much into Cronos or Talos spam until I'd already maxed out on Grots (and that's 1050 points already).

Dionysodorus wrote:
Grots are actually super-durable. They're paying 8.75 points per T5 4++/6+++ wound, and they sometimes get overkilled by d6 damage weapons. Even the cheapest Cronos is still paying 9.28 ppw, and the only advantages it gets over Grots are a point of toughness and a 3+ save, while being basically useless offensively. A Talos with haywire blasters is a whopping 14.14 ppw.

A Cronos looks pretty durable next to most other things in the game -- it's sturdier than a pre-FAQ Leviathan flyrant -- but Grots have them beat, and do decently in CC too. I don't think I'd look too much into Cronos or Talos spam until I'd already maxed out on Grots (and that's 1050 points already).

Yes Grots do have them beat, but why not both? The Cronos has 1 thing over the Grots tho and thats Fly (and +1" movement) the Grots will always deal way more damage for sure.

I just wanted to point out a few things is all. I love my Grots tho i have 20 and glad to use them all the time, i use at least 9 every game now, sometimes 18, i havent tried all 20 of mine yet.

So, this is the list I came up with:




The Warlord Archon goes with the Mandrakes in the Raider, the Djin Blade Archon goes with one of the Grotesque units while the Haemonculus goes with one of the other Grotesque units. The Scourges will deep strike somewhere.

Any thoughts?

 Amishprn86 wrote:


And how many turns and shots did they fire at them? Something HAS to die, if your Grots were killed instead your Talos would most likely have done a lot better, or if your Ravagers died 1st, etc... 3 Talos is 21 T7 4++/6+++ wounds, thats a LOT to kill them, we are talking about full army shooting.

Against Dark Reapers with an Autarch for re-roll 1's, a 3 unit of Talos will eat 56 shots, if someone takes a Ynnari unit of 9 and double shoots them for 18 shots, there is a chance they dont kill a Talos.

Both games that I lost all the talos turn 1, I also lost a 4 man unit of grots and this was just from turn 1 shooting. The only other targets they would have had would have been my jets but I would have welcomed that because the damage would have been insignificant against those targets (poison needing 6's and being able to pop strat to put lots of negatives to hit). Ravagers I deepstruck so they weren't on the table as eligible targets anyways.

1 game it was against adeptus sororitas who had a lot of scout moving/advancing and melta guns and flamers to roast units. The other game I lost them turn 1 was against another drukhari army (kabal of the flayed skull) and they just drowned them in poison and had plenty of shooting to spare.

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:
So, this is the list I came up with:

Spoiler:

Poison Tongue Battalion
Archon w/ Huskblade, Splinter Pistol, Soul Seeker - 76 (Warlord: Soulthirst)
Archon w/ Huskblade, Blast Pistol, Djin Blade - 86
5 Kabalite Warriors w/ Blaster, Agoniser - 51
- Venom w/ Twin Splinter Rifle - 65
5 Kabalite Warriors w/ Blaster, Agoniser - 51
- Venom w/ Twin Splinter Rifle - 65
5 Kabalite Warriors w/ Blaster, Agoniser - 51
- Venom w/ Twin Splinter Rifle - 65
5 Kabalite Warriors w/ Blaster, Agoniser - 51
- Venom w/ Twin Splinter Rifle - 65
959

Prophets of Flesh Vanguard
Haemonculus w/ Electrocorrosive Whip, Hexrifle - 81
3 Grotesques - 105
- Raider w/ Dark Lance - 85
3 Grotesques - 105
- Raider w/ Dark Lance - 85
5 Mandrakes - 80
- Raider w/ Disintegrator - 80
541

1500pts (9CP)

The Warlord Archon goes with the Mandrakes in the Raider, the Djin Blade Archon goes with one of the Grotesque units while the Haemonculus goes with one of the other Grotesque units. The Scourges will deep strike somewhere.

Any thoughts?

Mandrakes in a Raider is a bit of an odd choice for me, not sure why they wouldn't just deep strike. I'd definitely find the space for two Lhameans to stick one in each Grotesque raider (just to act as a suicide casualty so you don't lose a grot to an unlucky roll of 1 if the transport gets shot). Otherwise, looks pretty strong to me, good little mounted force.

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:
So, this is the list I came up with:

Spoiler:

Poison Tongue Battalion
Archon w/ Huskblade, Splinter Pistol, Soul Seeker - 76 (Warlord: Soulthirst)
Archon w/ Huskblade, Blast Pistol, Djin Blade - 86
5 Kabalite Warriors w/ Blaster, Agoniser - 51
- Venom w/ Twin Splinter Rifle - 65
5 Kabalite Warriors w/ Blaster, Agoniser - 51
- Venom w/ Twin Splinter Rifle - 65
5 Kabalite Warriors w/ Blaster, Agoniser - 51
- Venom w/ Twin Splinter Rifle - 65
5 Kabalite Warriors w/ Blaster, Agoniser - 51
- Venom w/ Twin Splinter Rifle - 65
959

Prophets of Flesh Vanguard
Haemonculus w/ Electrocorrosive Whip, Hexrifle - 81
3 Grotesques - 105
- Raider w/ Dark Lance - 85
3 Grotesques - 105
- Raider w/ Dark Lance - 85
5 Mandrakes - 80
- Raider w/ Disintegrator - 80
541

1500pts (9CP)

The Warlord Archon goes with the Mandrakes in the Raider, the Djin Blade Archon goes with one of the Grotesque units while the Haemonculus goes with one of the other Grotesque units. The Scourges will deep strike somewhere.

Any thoughts?

It's good. I'd just cut a few upgrades in order to fit a ravager with 3 dissies. You can cut the mandrakes' raider, replace the dark lances on other raiders with dissies, cut the archon's blast pistol, all the agonisers and a blaster from the kabalite units replacing it with a shredder.

I'm not sure about the Obsession, the Poisoned Tongue one looks the less appealing to me.

 lessthanjeff wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:


And how many turns and shots did they fire at them? Something HAS to die, if your Grots were killed instead your Talos would most likely have done a lot better, or if your Ravagers died 1st, etc... 3 Talos is 21 T7 4++/6+++ wounds, thats a LOT to kill them, we are talking about full army shooting.

Against Dark Reapers with an Autarch for re-roll 1's, a 3 unit of Talos will eat 56 shots, if someone takes a Ynnari unit of 9 and double shoots them for 18 shots, there is a chance they dont kill a Talos.

Both games that I lost all the talos turn 1, I also lost a 4 man unit of grots and this was just from turn 1 shooting. The only other targets they would have had would have been my jets but I would have welcomed that because the damage would have been insignificant against those targets (poison needing 6's and being able to pop strat to put lots of negatives to hit). Ravagers I deepstruck so they weren't on the table as eligible targets anyways.

1 game it was against adeptus sororitas who had a lot of scout moving/advancing and melta guns and flamers to roast units. The other game I lost them turn 1 was against another drukhari army (kabal of the flayed skull) and they just drowned them in poison and had plenty of shooting to spare.

If he Scouted 12 Melta guns at you, then no matter what, 350pts of anything will die and you cant say a unit is bad b.c someone dropped 500pts on you for 1 unit to kill. Flamers dont do much at all, 15 flamers is only 5 wounds.

Sadly, the faq is going to ruin sob, no more than 3 squads can scout now.

I think the Cronus is the one obvious miss in the codex.

Its defensive stats are fine but its offensive stats are a joke. In combat you expect to kill one guardsman a turn. Shooting isn't much better.

Tyel wrote:
I think the Cronus is the one obvious miss in the codex.

Its defensive stats are fine but its offensive stats are a joke. In combat you expect to kill one guardsman a turn. Shooting isn't much better.

It's a nice, cheap, durable buff machine. People happily pay what, 50 points for a jump pack lieutenant whose only job is to drop down and offer that aura? The cronos does that, shoots a flamer, lives a long time, and occasionally heals a wound off something, for 20 odd points more. That's fine with me, especially as I play a lot of wyches and I'm rerolling a LOT of wounds with it.

 Blackie wrote:

It's good. I'd just cut a few upgrades in order to fit a ravager with 3 dissies.

There should have already been one, but for some reason it didn't copy.

In addition to everything else, the PT Battalion should have had:
5 Scourges w/ 4x Blaster - 128
Ravager w/ 3x Disintegrators - 125

I've updated the original list. Sorry about that.

 Blackie wrote:

I'm not sure about the Obsession, the Poisoned Tongue one looks the less appealing to me.

Which Obsession would you recommend?

the_scotsman wrote:

Mandrakes in a Raider is a bit of an odd choice for me, not sure why they wouldn't just deep strike.

I thought they'd make a nice unit to accompany one of my HQs (since they have the same range as his sniper pistol and are decent in melee as well).

I could ditch the Raider and use a WWP to deep strike the HQ with them?

the_scotsman wrote:
I'd definitely find the space for two Lhameans to stick one in each Grotesque raider (just to act as a suicide casualty so you don't lose a grot to an unlucky roll of 1 if the transport gets shot). Otherwise, looks pretty strong to me, good little mounted force.

Okay, I'll mess around and try to find the points for those. Cheers.

 Amishprn86 wrote:


If he Scouted 12 Melta guns at you, then no matter what, 350pts of anything will die and you cant say a unit is bad b.c someone dropped 500pts on you for 1 unit to kill. Flamers dont do much at all, 15 flamers is only 5 wounds.

Sadly, the faq is going to ruin sob, no more than 3 squads can scout now.

I didn't say they were bad, I said I'm not impressed with Talos. I think competitive lists are better off just taking more Groteque with the points instead. For the cost of the unit of 3 talos, you can get 8 grotesque which have 11 more wounds and (depending on which weapon you use) 22 more attacks.

For fun games, people should feel free to use Talos and I still will myself in that environment. For competitive play, Talos don't impress me and I don't think they're worth it over other choices though.

 lessthanjeff wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:


If he Scouted 12 Melta guns at you, then no matter what, 350pts of anything will die and you cant say a unit is bad b.c someone dropped 500pts on you for 1 unit to kill. Flamers dont do much at all, 15 flamers is only 5 wounds.

Sadly, the faq is going to ruin sob, no more than 3 squads can scout now.

I didn't say they were bad, I said I'm not impressed with Talos. I think competitive lists are better off just taking more Groteque with the points instead. For the cost of the unit of 3 talos, you can get 8 grotesque which have 11 more wounds and (depending on which weapon you use) 22 more attacks.

For fun games, people should feel free to use Talos and I still will myself in that environment. For competitive play, Talos don't impress me and I don't think they're worth it over other choices though.

Thats understandable if you like Grots better, mine has been great for me.

the_scotsman wrote:
It's a nice, cheap, durable buff machine. People happily pay what, 50 points for a jump pack lieutenant whose only job is to drop down and offer that aura? The cronos does that, shoots a flamer, lives a long time, and occasionally heals a wound off something, for 20 odd points more. That's fine with me, especially as I play a lot of wyches and I'm rerolling a LOT of wounds with it.

I'd argue a lieutenant is better because he buffs shooting too (I think anyway?) and fills in an HQ slot which you need to fill for detachments.
Whereas the Cronus is just sort of there - messing with your obsessions unless you have a Coven detachment.

I think you need to get over 450~ points into the bubble for it to be better than just taking more stuff - and that will be difficult unless your opponent allows you to bunch up.
I mean how many units do you typically get in? Its not a bad buff for three units of Wyches I guess - but its not amazing. You could have the best part of a whole other unit (although balancing drugs can get complicated.)

And its really hard to see how you would be justified taking more than one.

I tested the Wych Cult/Poisoned Tongue combo in my most recent game and it may actually be my favorite wych cult/kabal combo in the game.

A couple tricks I found fun:

-The Poisoned Tongue special stratagem allows you to pick up and redeploy 3 poisoned tongue units, however it specifically states you can pick up a transport and take the units inside with it, keeping them embarked. What I did was deploy a unit of Red Grief Wyches from my army aboard a poisoned tongue raider, and put them behind a terrain piece in the backfield. Nearer the front line, I had a second raider that was a Red Grief model. The enemy army deployed an aggressive unit right on the deployment line, and I won first turn. I redeployed the unit (which had move drugs) up to the front line, disembarked them 4", advanced them 10"+D6" alongside a Red Grief raider moving 22", charged the red grief raider in first to soak overwatch and charged the wyches in to wipe the unit out, then used the Red Grief stratagem to pop them back into the Raider instead of consolidating.

That, THAT is how I've always wanted Dark Eldar to play. Tricky, lightning fast, brutal and elegant all in one move.

-Poison tongue archons paired with Lhameans and Sslyth are just unreal in combat. I had a full court of 3 sslyth 1 lhamean plus my warlord archon pop out and completely solo a leman russ tank commander between shooting it with a blast pistol (6 damage) and whacking it in combat with huskblades and sslyth battle-blades.

-Fire and Fade: says you can't advance, can't charge, doesn't say you can't embark on a vehicle. I had a unit of Kabalite warriors hop out of their raider, move 12" with the disembark into an archon's aura, shoot up a unit in rapid fire, Fire and Fade 7" and embark onto a different raider, which then charged something to evade shooting on my opponent's turn.

My favorite thing about this codex so far is that every game I play it seems like I'm falling in love with different stratagems. I've had games I went in basically just trying to set up awesome Eviscerating Flybys or trying to Soul Trap my archon up to stupid power levels. I've had games where I discovered the joys of the defensive stratagems, completely denying any attempt to focus firepower onto my stuff. This game, my CPs almost exclusively went into movement shenanigans, and I could catapult units of wyches and kabalites across the battlefield jumping in and out of my transports, it was a blast.

the_scotsman wrote:
I tested the Wych Cult/Poisoned Tongue combo in my most recent game and it may actually be my favorite wych cult/kabal combo in the game.

A couple tricks I found fun:

-The Poisoned Tongue special stratagem allows you to pick up and redeploy 3 poisoned tongue units, however it specifically states you can pick up a transport and take the units inside with it, keeping them embarked. What I did was deploy a unit of Red Grief Wyches from my army aboard a poisoned tongue raider, and put them behind a terrain piece in the backfield. Nearer the front line, I had a second raider that was a Red Grief model. The enemy army deployed an aggressive unit right on the deployment line, and I won first turn. I redeployed the unit (which had move drugs) up to the front line, disembarked them 4", advanced them 10"+D6" alongside a Red Grief raider moving 22", charged the red grief raider in first to soak overwatch and charged the wyches in to wipe the unit out, then used the Red Grief stratagem to pop them back into the Raider instead of consolidating.

That, THAT is how I've always wanted Dark Eldar to play. Tricky, lightning fast, brutal and elegant all in one move.

-Poison tongue archons paired with Lhameans and Sslyth are just unreal in combat. I had a full court of 3 sslyth 1 lhamean plus my warlord archon pop out and completely solo a leman russ tank commander between shooting it with a blast pistol (6 damage) and whacking it in combat with huskblades and sslyth battle-blades.

-Fire and Fade: says you can't advance, can't charge, doesn't say you can't embark on a vehicle. I had a unit of Kabalite warriors hop out of their raider, move 12" with the disembark into an archon's aura, shoot up a unit in rapid fire, Fire and Fade 7" and embark onto a different raider, which then charged something to evade shooting on my opponent's turn.

My favorite thing about this codex so far is that every game I play it seems like I'm falling in love with different stratagems. I've had games I went in basically just trying to set up awesome Eviscerating Flybys or trying to Soul Trap my archon up to stupid power levels. I've had games where I discovered the joys of the defensive stratagems, completely denying any attempt to focus firepower onto my stuff. This game, my CPs almost exclusively went into movement shenanigans, and I could catapult units of wyches and kabalites across the battlefield jumping in and out of my transports, it was a blast.

Nice.

Can I ask what your list looked like?

PT batt with 2x10 warriors in raiders, 1x5 sharing a raider with 1x5 wyches, 2 more raiders with 9 wyches 1 succubus. 1Venom with court and archon, 1 more archon buffing the transports. 12 reavers, 5 scourges, 1 Ravager, 3x5 hellions.

Relic was the Glaive and I used Alliance to give her a 3++.

2 Battalions is where I start with every DE list these days, with 5cp in each it's just a no brainier. Our troop choices are crazy good.

the_scotsman wrote:
PT batt with 2x10 warriors in raiders, 1x5 sharing a raider with 1x5 wyches, 2 more raiders with 9 wyches 1 succubus. 1Venom with court and archon, 1 more archon buffing the transports. 12 reavers, 5 scourges, 1 Ravager, 3x5 hellions.

Relic was the Glaive and I used Alliance to give her a 3++.

Interesting. Looks like more points than I usually play (and more Raiders than I currently own ), but I might try something along these lines. Thanks for posting that.

the_scotsman wrote:
2 Battalions is where I start with every DE list these days, with 5cp in each it's just a no brainier. Our troop choices are crazy good.

I wish I could say the same for our HQs.

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
PT batt with 2x10 warriors in raiders, 1x5 sharing a raider with 1x5 wyches, 2 more raiders with 9 wyches 1 succubus. 1Venom with court and archon, 1 more archon buffing the transports. 12 reavers, 5 scourges, 1 Ravager, 3x5 hellions.

Relic was the Glaive and I used Alliance to give her a 3++.

Interesting. Looks like more points than I usually play (and more Raiders than I currently own ), but I might try something along these lines. Thanks for posting that.

the_scotsman wrote:
2 Battalions is where I start with every DE list these days, with 5cp in each it's just a no brainier. Our troop choices are crazy good.

I wish I could say the same for our HQs.

Im also donig 2 Battalions now, 1 Kabal, 1 Coven, and 1 Outrider Wych, the Wracks with Teleporting can be very strong, i take an extra Relic and the WL traits for Succubus and Haemonculus (+D3 CP for sure, can get lucky), 14+D3 Cp spending 2 at the start and regaining CP throughout the game, i feel fine on CP for the first 3 turns and thats all that matters to me.

People bag the hqs a lot but my current set up has me pretty happy.
With alliance of agony and the extra relics strat I am currently running
Archon with writ and venom pistol. 72 points to buff triple dissie ravagers is pretty nice
Archon with blast pistol and djin blade. Puts out 7 attacks and threatens most targets
Succubus with red glaive and 3++ puts out a decent amount of attacks and is hard to deal with with her 3++. For 50 points is a steal.
Succubus with shardnet. The weakest of the 4, but has proven annoying when supporting the other characters and units as a tie up unit.
Having to run any of them unupgraded would not be ideal, but with the amount of cp the army can easily generate it's not much of an investment to make them decent

Yeah, I think the hate for our hqs is massively overblown.

The archon who isn't the warlord is the only problem child. Even then, he's a character with a D6 damage pistol and a force sword with a 2++ , he's a characters worst nightmare. The warlord one who can reroll all wounds and take the djinn blade? An absolute monster.

Succubi can always be thrown a net and they'll be crazy useful. The Haemonculus needs an EC whip and he's sorted.

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, I think the hate for our hqs is massively overblown.

The archon who isn't the warlord is the only problem child. Even then, he's a character with a D6 damage pistol and a force sword with a 2++ , he's a characters worst nightmare. The warlord one who can reroll all wounds and take the djinn blade? An absolute monster.

Succubi can always be thrown a net and they'll be crazy useful. The Haemonculus needs an EC whip and he's sorted.

The problem is he either walks, or takes up 4 slots in a vehicle unless you want under strength units....

Understrength units is fine if it's Grots, Incubi, Wyches with a net (all they need tbh), anything but warriors really.

Or theyre RG Succubi who can advance and charge and can take move drugs. Or they're in a venom with a court. Or they're walking with coven Gribbles.

There's options and they're not bad options. I was even feeling the Archon jogging with the transports that last game - raider dark Lance's and venom splinter cannons love to reroll ones and you can disembark warriors for the double reroll and the Fire and Fade shell game.