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BrianDavion wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

catbarf wrote:
I feel like each of the traits we're seeing would be pretty strong as a trait in any other codex, and getting to choose two of them is a bit much.

For example, take the Storm Troopers doctrine that Guard get: If you're at half range or less, you get an extra shot for each roll of 6.

Meanwhile one of the new Astartes traits is an extra hit on a 6. Hit, not shot, and no range limit. And then they can still take another trait, too.

Or, with Tyranids, Leviathan gives each model in Synapse range a 6+ FNP.

But it's looking like Astartes can just have a 6+ FNP all the time. And, again, then select another trait.

I'm wondering if there's going to be a disadvantage here, or if Marines just get two traits now all the time while everyone else gets to pick one.

Well wouldn't be surprised for new codexes from now on have similar system. Business as usual to change power level of armies etc suddenly. Poor chaos just got codex so are unlikely to get similar treatment for ages.

I would be very surprised if anyone else got custom tactics. This is a recycled idea from 4th edition and also no other army is marketed as having 1000 different chapters, nor does GW focus on sub factions of most armies. This will be a Marine only thing I bet

the only other armies I could see potentially getting this treatment are guard, and chaos Marines.

and frankly givedn that guard are all differant looks I'm not sure GW will want to enchourage it.

Csm though are a prime target for it.
There are quite a few warbands that could get add ons and some legions might get fleshed out propperly.
Also more shekels because you now need dex + supplement for army. Which is always good in GW's eyes.

 Kirasu wrote:

Spoiler:

tneva82 wrote:

catbarf wrote:
I feel like each of the traits we're seeing would be pretty strong as a trait in any other codex, and getting to choose two of them is a bit much.

For example, take the Storm Troopers doctrine that Guard get: If you're at half range or less, you get an extra shot for each roll of 6.

Meanwhile one of the new Astartes traits is an extra hit on a 6. Hit, not shot, and no range limit. And then they can still take another trait, too.

Or, with Tyranids, Leviathan gives each model in Synapse range a 6+ FNP.

But it's looking like Astartes can just have a 6+ FNP all the time. And, again, then select another trait.

I'm wondering if there's going to be a disadvantage here, or if Marines just get two traits now all the time while everyone else gets to pick one.

Well wouldn't be surprised for new codexes from now on have similar system. Business as usual to change power level of armies etc suddenly. Poor chaos just got codex so are unlikely to get similar treatment for ages.

I would be very surprised if anyone else got custom tactics. This is a recycled idea from 4th edition and also no other army is marketed as having 1000 different chapters, nor does GW focus on sub factions of most armies. This will be a Marine only thing I bet

Didn't Guard and Tyranids have it in 4th too?

Finally I can accurately represent my Non-Unforgiven Chapter in the rules accurately while still maintaining the original flavor of the dark angels.

Plus this does give me hope we might see close combat squads.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:

Spoiler:

tneva82 wrote:

catbarf wrote:
I feel like each of the traits we're seeing would be pretty strong as a trait in any other codex, and getting to choose two of them is a bit much.

For example, take the Storm Troopers doctrine that Guard get: If you're at half range or less, you get an extra shot for each roll of 6.

Meanwhile one of the new Astartes traits is an extra hit on a 6. Hit, not shot, and no range limit. And then they can still take another trait, too.

Or, with Tyranids, Leviathan gives each model in Synapse range a 6+ FNP.

But it's looking like Astartes can just have a 6+ FNP all the time. And, again, then select another trait.

I'm wondering if there's going to be a disadvantage here, or if Marines just get two traits now all the time while everyone else gets to pick one.

Well wouldn't be surprised for new codexes from now on have similar system. Business as usual to change power level of armies etc suddenly. Poor chaos just got codex so are unlikely to get similar treatment for ages.

I would be very surprised if anyone else got custom tactics. This is a recycled idea from 4th edition and also no other army is marketed as having 1000 different chapters, nor does GW focus on sub factions of most armies. This will be a Marine only thing I bet

Didn't Guard and Tyranids have it in 4th too?

Essentially yes.

Voss wrote:

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:

Spoiler:

tneva82 wrote:

catbarf wrote:
I feel like each of the traits we're seeing would be pretty strong as a trait in any other codex, and getting to choose two of them is a bit much.

For example, take the Storm Troopers doctrine that Guard get: If you're at half range or less, you get an extra shot for each roll of 6.

Meanwhile one of the new Astartes traits is an extra hit on a 6. Hit, not shot, and no range limit. And then they can still take another trait, too.

Or, with Tyranids, Leviathan gives each model in Synapse range a 6+ FNP.

But it's looking like Astartes can just have a 6+ FNP all the time. And, again, then select another trait.

I'm wondering if there's going to be a disadvantage here, or if Marines just get two traits now all the time while everyone else gets to pick one.

Well wouldn't be surprised for new codexes from now on have similar system. Business as usual to change power level of armies etc suddenly. Poor chaos just got codex so are unlikely to get similar treatment for ages.

I would be very surprised if anyone else got custom tactics. This is a recycled idea from 4th edition and also no other army is marketed as having 1000 different chapters, nor does GW focus on sub factions of most armies. This will be a Marine only thing I bet

Didn't Guard and Tyranids have it in 4th too?

Essentially yes.

Yeah, and it was great. Guard only had a 3rd ed codex though, didn't they? I thought they missed out on 4rd ed and jumped straight to 5th.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
After really looking at how the other Chapter Tactics work, I guess I don't see why GW felt the need to nerf Crimson Fists. It used to be Twice the models. Now it is +5. Really takes the wind out of my sails since it makes diminishing squads less effective.

I think it is more of a side-grade than a nerf to the core +1 mechanic. Sure it is worse on Character models (they rarely need it ) and depleted squads but it now works on vehicles so we get more value out of the storm bolters etc there. I always viewed it primarily as a means for horde control and it still works very well for that. The second and new part is very strong for a typical CF list as it gives 25% more hits with bolter weapons under normal circumstances. That second part also appears to work in overwatch which is sweet.

I would say that Imperial Fists do slightly better now but that's OK and I feel no need to repaint my army yellow. If we still get some new version of the same stratagems I will be quite content.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:

Spoiler:

tneva82 wrote:

catbarf wrote:
I feel like each of the traits we're seeing would be pretty strong as a trait in any other codex, and getting to choose two of them is a bit much.

For example, take the Storm Troopers doctrine that Guard get: If you're at half range or less, you get an extra shot for each roll of 6.

Meanwhile one of the new Astartes traits is an extra hit on a 6. Hit, not shot, and no range limit. And then they can still take another trait, too.

Or, with Tyranids, Leviathan gives each model in Synapse range a 6+ FNP.

But it's looking like Astartes can just have a 6+ FNP all the time. And, again, then select another trait.

I'm wondering if there's going to be a disadvantage here, or if Marines just get two traits now all the time while everyone else gets to pick one.

Well wouldn't be surprised for new codexes from now on have similar system. Business as usual to change power level of armies etc suddenly. Poor chaos just got codex so are unlikely to get similar treatment for ages.

I would be very surprised if anyone else got custom tactics. This is a recycled idea from 4th edition and also no other army is marketed as having 1000 different chapters, nor does GW focus on sub factions of most armies. This will be a Marine only thing I bet

Didn't Guard and Tyranids have it in 4th too?

Essentially yes.

Yeah, and it was great. Guard only had a 3rd ed codex though, didn't they? I thought they missed out on 4rd ed and jumped straight to 5th.

I think you might be right. I think that the Guard had two codexes in 3rd and then got their next one in 5th.
*Edit: not counting supplements like Catachans and Armageddon

 Kirasu wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

catbarf wrote:
I feel like each of the traits we're seeing would be pretty strong as a trait in any other codex, and getting to choose two of them is a bit much.

For example, take the Storm Troopers doctrine that Guard get: If you're at half range or less, you get an extra shot for each roll of 6.

Meanwhile one of the new Astartes traits is an extra hit on a 6. Hit, not shot, and no range limit. And then they can still take another trait, too.

Or, with Tyranids, Leviathan gives each model in Synapse range a 6+ FNP.

But it's looking like Astartes can just have a 6+ FNP all the time. And, again, then select another trait.

I'm wondering if there's going to be a disadvantage here, or if Marines just get two traits now all the time while everyone else gets to pick one.

Well wouldn't be surprised for new codexes from now on have similar system. Business as usual to change power level of armies etc suddenly. Poor chaos just got codex so are unlikely to get similar treatment for ages.

I would be very surprised if anyone else got custom tactics. This is a recycled idea from 4th edition and also no other army is marketed as having 1000 different chapters, nor does GW focus on sub factions of most armies. This will be a Marine only thing I bet

Hilarious that Marine Chapters are considered more diverse than Guard Regiments - hilarious and false

Marine Chapters are also a Sub-Sub faction. Imperium - Marines - Chapter

In an ideal world we'd have this system for every army. But lets see if GW learned the lessons from 4th first.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Finally I can accurately represent my Non-Unforgiven Chapter in the rules accurately while still maintaining the original flavor of the dark angels.

Plus this does give me hope we might see close combat squads.

So basically Forgiven?

I wonder if each of the eight Chapter Tactics will see a model release of a character. Seems like a decent way to snag an extra $40 from a player.

If so, my guesses are the following:
UM - already revealed to be Tigurius
WS - already revealed to be Kor'sarro Khan
IH - already revealed as the Iron Father, but who he is has not been revealed (please be Stronos!)
IF - Tor Garadon. We already have his pistol, give us the rest of him. Plus, sales of Lysander won't be cannibalized. They could even make him Chapter Master.
RG - Shrike. Give him a model fit for a Chapter Master!
Salamanders - Vulkan. He already has non-standard wargear so it isn't a big stretch to see him as a new model.
CF - Pedro Kantor. Again, non-standard wargear on one arm, a power fist on the other.
BT - Emperor's Champion or Grimaldus. EC because it is a pretty straightforward update. Grimaldus because the new Litanies of Faith would work very well with a new model to be released alongside them.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:

Spoiler:

tneva82 wrote:

catbarf wrote:
I feel like each of the traits we're seeing would be pretty strong as a trait in any other codex, and getting to choose two of them is a bit much.

For example, take the Storm Troopers doctrine that Guard get: If you're at half range or less, you get an extra shot for each roll of 6.

Meanwhile one of the new Astartes traits is an extra hit on a 6. Hit, not shot, and no range limit. And then they can still take another trait, too.

Or, with Tyranids, Leviathan gives each model in Synapse range a 6+ FNP.

But it's looking like Astartes can just have a 6+ FNP all the time. And, again, then select another trait.

I'm wondering if there's going to be a disadvantage here, or if Marines just get two traits now all the time while everyone else gets to pick one.

Well wouldn't be surprised for new codexes from now on have similar system. Business as usual to change power level of armies etc suddenly. Poor chaos just got codex so are unlikely to get similar treatment for ages.

I would be very surprised if anyone else got custom tactics. This is a recycled idea from 4th edition and also no other army is marketed as having 1000 different chapters, nor does GW focus on sub factions of most armies. This will be a Marine only thing I bet

Didn't Guard and Tyranids have it in 4th too?

Essentially yes.

Yeah, and it was great. Guard only had a 3rd ed codex though, didn't they? I thought they missed out on 4rd ed and jumped straight to 5th.

I think you might be right. I think that the Guard had two codexes in 3rd and then got their next one in 5th.
*Edit: not counting supplements like Catachans and Armageddon

The super customisable codexes stated in late 3rd and carried on into 4th, Tyranids with their Mutable Genus rule were a 3rd ed codex.and their next one was also 5th.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I wonder if each of the eight Chapter Tactics will see a model release of a character. Seems like a decent way to snag an extra $40 from a player.

If so, my guesses are the following:
UM - already revealed to be Tigurius
WS - already revealed to be Kor'sarro Khan
IH - already revealed as the Iron Father, but who he is has not been revealed (please be Stronos!)
IF - Tor Garadon. We already have his pistol, give us the rest of him. Plus, sales of Lysander won't be cannibalized. They could even make him Chapter Master.
RG - Shrike. Give him a model fit for a Chapter Master!
Salamanders - Vulkan. He already has non-standard wargear so it isn't a big stretch to see him as a new model.
CF - Pedro Kantor. Again, non-standard wargear on one arm, a power fist on the other.
BT - Emperor's Champion or Grimaldus. EC because it is a pretty straightforward update. Grimaldus because the new Litanies of Faith would work very well with a new model to be released alongside them.

As long as I can still use my stand-in for Shrike I would be fine with that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also have we heard anything regarding Grav, or at least the points for it? I want to use the Grav Cannon without costing as much as two frickin Marines.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I wonder if each of the eight Chapter Tactics will see a model release of a character. Seems like a decent way to snag an extra $40 from a player.

If so, my guesses are the following:
UM - already revealed to be Tigurius
WS - already revealed to be Kor'sarro Khan
IH - already revealed as the Iron Father, but who he is has not been revealed (please be Stronos!)
IF - Tor Garadon. We already have his pistol, give us the rest of him. Plus, sales of Lysander won't be cannibalized. They could even make him Chapter Master.
RG - Shrike. Give him a model fit for a Chapter Master!
Salamanders - Vulkan. He already has non-standard wargear so it isn't a big stretch to see him as a new model.
CF - Pedro Kantor. Again, non-standard wargear on one arm, a power fist on the other.
BT - Emperor's Champion or Grimaldus. EC because it is a pretty straightforward update. Grimaldus because the new Litanies of Faith would work very well with a new model to be released alongside them.

As long as I can still use my stand-in for Shrike I would be fine with that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also have we heard anything regarding Grav, or at least the points for it? I want to use the Grav Cannon without costing as much as two frickin Marines.

Shrike if updated will probably end up being in the inceptor armor for fly or be a revier marine.

I would flat out refuse to use Shrike as a Reiver. It's not worth losing that mobility.

 Desubot wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
After really looking at how the other Chapter Tactics work, I guess I don't see why GW felt the need to nerf Crimson Fists. It used to be Twice the models. Now it is +5. Really takes the wind out of my sails since it makes diminishing squads less effective.

Well it always gets the bonus against vehicles

Also if the squad is already diminished then does the bonus really matter.

It never gets a bonus against vehicles. Only Crimson Fists vehicles count as 5 models. Enemy vehicles are unaffected. Characters used to be able to go after smaller squads, now they don't get any bonus.

A read that wrong.

Yep a bit brutal of a nerf.

It's less effective on characters and small min sized 3 man squads, sure - but it's much more likely to be available against big squads.

Lemondish wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
After really looking at how the other Chapter Tactics work, I guess I don't see why GW felt the need to nerf Crimson Fists. It used to be Twice the models. Now it is +5. Really takes the wind out of my sails since it makes diminishing squads less effective.

Well it always gets the bonus against vehicles

Also if the squad is already diminished then does the bonus really matter.

It never gets a bonus against vehicles. Only Crimson Fists vehicles count as 5 models. Enemy vehicles are unaffected. Characters used to be able to go after smaller squads, now they don't get any bonus.

A read that wrong.

Yep a bit brutal of a nerf.

It's less effective on characters and small min sized 3 man squads, sure - but it's much more likely to be available against big squads.

So Unfluffy units for Crimson Fists. Got it.

As for Shrike, I would think he would be in either Inceptor Gravis armor (while maintaining his Lightning Claws) or Suppressor Omnis armor (again while maintaining his claws, but also likely keeping his pistol).

For the most part, they seem to by trying to keep the same silhouette of the characters they are updating to Primaris (Khan is a little different, but now he has a birdie). I don't see them dropping Shrike's jump pack by making him wear Reiver armor.

 Crimson wrote:
They just announced a bunch of new plastic space marines.

He's not talking about Primaris Marines.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
They just announced a bunch of new plastic space marines.

He's not talking about Primaris Marines.

He said 'plastic space marines'. It is really not problem if some people have trouble understanding that the primaris are space marines. The space marines are going nowhere, and they look better than ever.

Lemondish wrote:


It's less effective on characters and small min sized 3 man squads, sure - but it's much more likely to be available against big squads.

Well objectively looking at it
with the new rules.
old rules.
10 > 20+
9 > 18+
8 > 16+
7 > 14+
6 > 12+
5 > 10+
4 > 8+
3 > 6+
2 > 4+
1 > 2+

vs new

10 > 15+
9 > 14+
8 > 13+
7 > 12+
6 > 11+
5 > 10+
4 > 9+
3 > 8+
2 > 7+
1 > 6+

You get a big 5 man bonus at full 10 man strength against any unit bigger than 15.
at 5 man its the same between both new and old rules
but below it changes in that you get major diminishing returns.

it evens out a bit in theory but the question is how often would you fight against big 15+ man squads vs smaller 10 or 5 man squads.

it really determines how often your benefits get turned off.

also new rules mean that as you only benefit from your CT when you are losing and your units are beaten up but the enemies still has a bunch.
(while old rules are similar the enemy could be a little more beaten up before the benefits go away)

 Crimson wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
They just announced a bunch of new plastic space marines.

He's not talking about Primaris Marines.

He said 'plastic space marines'. It is really not problem if some people have trouble understanding that the primaris are space marines. The space marines are going nowhere, and they look better than ever.

Also, there is a new datasheet that is NOT Primaris coming in the White Scars book (Khan on bike). So it isn't like they are completely ignoring RSM.

 Crimson wrote:
He said 'plastic space marines'. It is really not problem if some people have trouble understanding that the primaris are space marines. The space marines are going nowhere, and they look better than ever.

Not the point. The point was that it was the second time in two posts that you missed that someone was talking about regular Space Marines and not Primaris.



It was damned obvious what they were both talking about, and you seem to have either missed that or (and this is far more likely, given your reply to me) glibly and intentionally misinterpreted what they said.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
They just announced a bunch of new plastic space marines.

He's not talking about Primaris Marines.

He said 'plastic space marines'. It is really not problem if some people have trouble understanding that the primaris are space marines. The space marines are going nowhere, and they look better than ever.

Also, there is a new datasheet that is NOT Primaris coming in the White Scars book (Khan on bike). So it isn't like they are completely ignoring RSM.

Where did you hear we where getting a Khan on a bike data sheet in the white scars book?


as for crimson fists it sounds like math wise the only units "nerfed" are characters and agressors. and frankly I'd not say a army consisting of a bunch of captains and agressors is particularly fluffy

BrianDavion wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
They just announced a bunch of new plastic space marines.

He's not talking about Primaris Marines.

He said 'plastic space marines'. It is really not problem if some people have trouble understanding that the primaris are space marines. The space marines are going nowhere, and they look better than ever.

Also, there is a new datasheet that is NOT Primaris coming in the White Scars book (Khan on bike). So it isn't like they are completely ignoring RSM.

Where did you hear we where getting a Khan on a bike data sheet in the white scars book?


as for crimson fists it sounds like math wise the only units "nerfed" are characters and agressors. and frankly I'd not say a army consisting of a bunch of captains and agressors is particularly fluffy

In the Pre-order Preview article. I snapshotted the section below.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

It was damned obvious what they were both talking about, and you seem to have either missed that or (and this is far more likely, given your reply to me) glibly and intentionally misinterpreted what they said.

Of course was intentional. If people are going to continue with this idiotic 'the primaris are not real space marines' nonsense, then I'm going to respond with the respect it deserves.

Besides, we all know, that 'the real space marines', the Rogue Trader plastic beakies, were discontinued decades ago.

 Crimson wrote:
Of course was intentional. If people are going to continue with this idiotic 'the primaris are not real space marines' nonsense, then I'm going to respond with the respect it deserves.

It's not idiotic. You like Primaris, something you made perfectly clear, but a lot of people don't.

Acting like you don't know what they're talking about when they Space Marines vs Primaris Marines insults their intelligence and you're basically telling them that their dislike of Primaries Marines is wrong and invalid.

Give it a rest.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
They just announced a bunch of new plastic space marines.

He's not talking about Primaris Marines.

He said 'plastic space marines'. It is really not problem if some people have trouble understanding that the primaris are space marines. The space marines are going nowhere, and they look better than ever.

Also, there is a new datasheet that is NOT Primaris coming in the White Scars book (Khan on bike). So it isn't like they are completely ignoring RSM.

Where did you hear we where getting a Khan on a bike data sheet in the white scars book?


as for crimson fists it sounds like math wise the only units "nerfed" are characters and agressors. and frankly I'd not say a army consisting of a bunch of captains and agressors is particularly fluffy

In the Pre-order Preview article. I snapshotted the section below.

Ahh I see it. It's not Korsaro Khan, just "a Khan" which makes sense as the model exists for a white scars bike captain

There are plenty of cool primaris models, but they're a mixed bag at best and the better models are dogged by the worst. Biggest problem of all is they just look awful next to normal marines, it detracts from both.

 Crablezworth wrote:
There are plenty of cool primaris models, but they're a mixed bag at best and the better models are dogged by the worst. Biggest problem of all is they just look awful next to normal marines, it detracts from both.

imho its the other way around for me.

its hard to look at old marine models next to primarus

that squatty potty look mate.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Of course was intentional. If people are going to continue with this idiotic 'the primaris are not real space marines' nonsense, then I'm going to respond with the respect it deserves.

It's not idiotic. You like Primaris, something you made perfectly clear, but a lot of people don't.

Acting like you don't know what they're talking about when they Space Marines vs Primaris Marines insults their intelligence and you're basically telling them that their dislike of Primaries Marines is wrong and invalid.

Give it a rest.

You can dislike them all you want. Not that it will do any good and whining about the inevitable is tiresome. Did you whine about it for thirty years when the discontinued the RT beakies?

But at least present the opinion coherently. Like it or not, the primaris marines are space marines, and thus not including these new releases in the category of 'plastic space marines' is objectively and factually incorrect.