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I feel like the ability to at will fall back from close combat and the new leadership test that make you lose models will official kill the assault phase. Let alone things in armor getting better saves in cover.

Gun lines in cover are going to be even more powerful than ever.

What chance does an assualty army have?

You run across the table getting shot losing models, then lose more models due to leadership check. Then more to over watch. Then a few get into assualt. Hopefully you lose no one in assault, then if you dont kill your target in the first assault they just get away and another unit blows you off the table. This is saying they dont get to shoot twice as you come across the table.....

I think the combination of disengage and the way the new leadership works may actually kill the game. No one will want to play assault based armies. All you will do is pick your models up at lightning speed.

I know it sounds pessimistic, but honestly i was really hopeful that ith would be awesome.

After seeing these new rules.....i think its going go kill the game. I was cool with all the other changes, but these combined two here are not good.

Can someone please give me an idea of how this wont be so bad or maybe im looking at it all wrong? Thoughts?

Assault armies have been dead since 6th edition, nothing new

Agreed, i started in 5th. Honestly for me 5th was the best....8th had promise until i started putting 2 and 2 together. I feel like you actually had a game in 5th edition where you could actually play with your models. Sure guard leafblower was rough, but there seemed to be a good balance to the game.

 Chute82 wrote:
Assault armies have been dead since 6th edition, nothing new

He said assault Arnies. He had the big bazooka in Commando. That's a snooty Arnie

The Sky is Falling! The Sky is Falling!

AoS uses this exact same mechanic and assaulty armies work just fine. You haven't seen all of the inevitable mechanics that let units ignore morale tests. They're everywhere is AoS. Stands to reason that we'll see them in 40k8e as well.

Well, I'm going to wait until I've actually played the game before throwing teddy from the pram....

After all, transports are likely to benefit from the new vehicle rules (far less one-shotting), and it seems we'll all be able to assault directly from a vehicle.

Chargers generally strike first as well. And if your opponent doesn't retreat (which costs that units next turn, more or less) you can also lap round into previously unengaged foes.

AOS doesnt have the number of ranged weapons or the scale of said ranged weapons. They dont have a bunch of tanks rolling around dropping pies. There are no gunlines like tau or marines.... when you play a medieval based game vs a future warfare game, the same mechanics will play out differently. If i wanted AOS mechanics, i would just play a game of AOS.

 Kriswall wrote:
The Sky is Falling! The Sky is Falling!

AoS uses this exact same mechanic and assaulty armies work just fine. You haven't seen all of the inevitable mechanics that let units ignore morale tests. They're everywhere is AoS. Stands to reason that we'll see them in 40k8e as well.

Damn yeah, let's just wait and see the whole picture before declaring A or B not viable. THEN we can start the complain-train

It will be better than what we have now. I think the tactic will be to bring a LOT of assault squads and force as many enemy units to fight in close combat as possible. Gunlines probably won't be able to form a line as much, because they will need to keep some units back to avoid being assaulted.

Mad doc, see there is a plus. If we can assault from all vehicles the turn you disembark....that would be helpful..

However, bugs will really suffer....or you would have to pod them all in (which would be cool).....

Orks numbers would suffer and only make speed freaks viable....

It would still really limit how you played your assaulty army. It woud be a handicap so to say.... you have to take vehicles to make your army do its thing.

We DO need to see some of the basic underlying mechanics before we carve the gravestone for assault.
You do not want to anger the followers of Khorne so GW may have a couple things to appease.

We do need to see if a round or two of getting shot at, not sure if the snap / over-watch shots when being charged has been dealt with but in the end getting a few assault guys in needs to be "worth it". At least being the one to charge-in you get the initiative (hopefully get a +1 attack as well...).

I have not stayed completely current on the gazillion leaks on 8th because I figure they will tweak a few things prior to publishing and small things make all the difference in the rules as we all well know.

Turn 1 assaults and assaulting from vehicles the turn you disembark would greatly help the issue......

 Kriswall wrote:
The Sky is Falling! The Sky is Falling!

AoS uses this exact same mechanic and assaulty armies work just fine.

Aren't the majority of units in AoS not shooting though? And even the ones that are I don't think have the firepower of many 40k armies. Shooty armies obviously aren't going to dominate in AoS unless they can achieve the volume and strength of fire to do so.

But regarding 40k, eh, too early to tell. Remains to be seen how the armies are actually going to be balanced against each other. Maybe assault heavy units are just going to end up cheap to compensate, or have annoying bespoke rules to try and make up for it.

But see there is an issue, now we have to have more rules to complicate the game to make something viable.... the whole point of 8th was to get rid of all the clutter not make more. This is supposed to be a refined more streamlined version and here we are having to complicate a system with rules to protect assault armies because the basic rules for the game crap all over them....already...

 Soccerlfb6 wrote:
the whole point of 8th was to get rid of all the clutter not make more.

I'm getting the impression the purpose of 8th was to streamline the CORE rules to make it easier to introduce new players but still have a metric ton of special rules on individual units a la AoS.

So then new players playing assault based armies will not like the game. Streamlined core rules do nothing without the support of all the rules...not just core. I imagine some poor new ork player playing some new space marine player and just picking his models up by the handful to bolter fire. Imagine the old black reach box set just using these core rules.....how much fun is that ork player having? Streamlining core rules does nothing if there are a million special rule and exceptions.... this is where we were in 7th. Its counter productive to the stated goal...

Say you are correct it is slimmimg core rules then we are right bsck to my point...going off stated core rules....assault armies are dead. Only special rules and exceptions can save them from the streamlined core rules...

Geez, people. Let's actually get the rules before declaring anything.

We don't know how good transports will be, and if assaulting out of reserve or infiltration is a thing.
If transports are durable, and you can assault out of them, most of your troops could get into assault without being shot at, expect for overwatch.

And even if assault units end up much weaker than shooty ones, they could be costed in such a way that they're still a viable option.

We have rules.

The point of 8th was to streamline....

Now eith the core rules, either we will have a million other rules and exceptions or we wont. This means either 8th will not be a streamlined version of 40k OR assaulting is dead as i stated.

Either way, GW lied or crapped on assault based players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am still hopeful that 8th can be salvaged and there are good points here... that's why i posted to discuss...

 Soccerlfb6 wrote:
Turn 1 assaults and assaulting from vehicles the turn you disembark would greatly help the issue......

We can. This has been I think confirmed in one of their releases.

Assault isn't dead now, but I think it's going to get stronger in 8e. Assaulting out of your armored go-cart is a big deal I think towards increasing the viability.

No matter how you look at it, it's not getting worse than this edition. I don't expect the targets of my charges to live through them, between the massive number of good strength/AP attacks and sweeping advance, so falling back out of combat is probably going to be a non-issue. Losing the attack for charging kind of hurts, since it halves the output of some units, but chargers also get to go first automatically.

No, we have SOME rules, we don't have all of them.

Have you played a game of 8th yet? Because if not save your tears, wait until the full rules are actually released and played a game before throwing your toys out and jumping to conclusions.

Honestly I thought my baby brothers tantrums were bad... Then I got into Warhammer and found much bigger tantrum throwers...

How about waiting until we have all the rules? Assault based armies will most likely get a boost. Trust me, AoS has a decent amount of shooting, but armies like Beastclaw Raiders (almost all assault) are steamrolling people.

Very helpful criticism, good discussion... specifically the part about tears and tantrums lol... moving along...

 Soccerlfb6 wrote:
Very helpful criticism, good discussion... specifically the part about tears and tantrums lol... moving along...

Your OP is literally:

Gun lines in cover are going to be even more powerful than ever.

What chance does an assualty army have?

You run across the table getting shot losing models, then lose more models due to leadership check. Then more to over watch. Then a few get into assualt. Hopefully you lose no one in assault, then if you dont kill your target in the first assault they just get away and another unit blows you off the table. This is saying they dont get to shoot twice as you come across the table.....

Based on rules that haven't been released yet.

I kinda wish the mods would just lump all these speculative threads into one mega thread.

I like AoS, and look forward to 8th ed. Anyone that plays a GW game should know already that their game will either go out of print/unsupported quickly, or after a couple years, a new edition that could/will invalidate their army book and maybe even some of their models.

Is the sky falling? No.

We haven't seen ALL the rules yet, nor do we even know HOW to play 8th edition yet. So it's a little premature to declare the end of the world.

Change is hard, and not everyone like it, understands it, or can even adapt to it. These people will forever be playing in the past. I have no precognitive abilities, so I can't play in the speculative future. That leaves me with playing in the present until the new edition drops.

 Soccerlfb6 wrote:
So then new players playing assault based armies will not like the game. Streamlined core rules do nothing without the support of all the rules...not just core. I imagine some poor new ork player playing some new space marine player and just picking his models up by the handful to bolter fire. Imagine the old black reach box set just using these core rules.....how much fun is that ork player having? Streamlining core rules does nothing if there are a million special rule and exceptions.... this is where we were in 7th. Its counter productive to the stated goal...

Say you are correct it is slimmimg core rules then we are right bsck to my point...going off stated core rules....assault armies are dead. Only special rules and exceptions can save them from the streamlined core rules...

No, because even the new players are still going to be using the complicated unit rules alongside the simple core rules.

It just means new players don't have to read a 100 page tome before playing a game, they read the core rules which are short then start playing a game and read the unit specific rules off the datasheets for only the troops they are playing with as they go.

I would have liked to have seen 40k simplified both in the core rules AND the unit rules, but GW seems to love their bespoke special rules too much (IMO when every unit has it's own half dozen special rules they cease being special and start being, well, normal).

The OP is not speculation i stated the rules we know exist and discussed what i feel is a weakness in the game.

I will never understand why this community does nothing but bash and troll posts....

Who cares if it is specualtion i posted on the discussion to talk about it....if you dont like what you read or dont want to put something real into s discussion...move on..

Stop being "that guy", just because you dont get players wanting to play with you in RL...you dont need to come here on forums and still be "that guy".

MOD go ahead and lock or close post. You cant talk abput anything without people complaining about your post or crying that your crying....its honestly pathetic.

 Soccerlfb6 wrote:
AOS doesnt have the number of ranged weapons or the scale of said ranged weapons. They dont have a bunch of tanks rolling around dropping pies. There are no gunlines like tau or marines....

Clearly you haven't been paying attention to the meta then.

There are many gunline lists running around (There's a guy over at Frontline Gaming that ran Dwarves (Duardin... grumble) that shoot at -4 rend thanks to stacking rules (and this even applies in melee) at competitive events. And with the new Kharadron Overlords, shooting just got even more enticing (Thunderers, the elite unit, have ridiculously powerful shooting weapons which do d3 damage and can get extra attacks). And that's before you consider their transports which allow them to scoot along the battlefield.

Again, we're looking at rules in a vacuum here. There are many rules which allow units to ignore battleshock in AoS, and we haven't even seen a full datasheet for a single unit, much less the army-wide special rules or faction bonuses or even what command traits will exist to reward people for staying within battle-forged lists. You might be able to spend command points to force a unit to re-engage. Or, you might be able to spend command points to allow a unit to pile-in and attack again. Don't make a judgement until you see the whole thing, because there may very well be more to the picture than we've seen. If, once 8th drops (which is really only a month away, essentially) you find that the entirety of the rules aren't to your liking, fine, but don't make an uninformed assumption based off of what we've seen so far, because it's really just the tip of the iceberg, even if the rules and unit profiles were 1-1 matches for Age of Sigmar (which it's obvious that it isn't, with 40k's unit profiles).

complaining about rules that arent even out yet is pathetic.

I thought they just brought back Assault Arnie

Edit - Nope, correction... They brought back Assault Stallone