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Well, they're stretching info at this point to keep it going until release, and a lot of it we have already been able to deduce or guess at this point, which makes it feel less fresh.
Atleast there's some hard confirmation of things like no front/side/back.
As an ork player, not only do the deffrollas sound like they have some functionality again, but now EVERYTHING can try to charge in, which makes me more excited than it should!
I don't care if a trukk will just bounce off a unit - the drivers need to do some krumpin'!
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Purifier wrote: Option 5, what's the point of fixing a chair in a burning house?
It seems possible that many light vehicles will get a T6/4+ profile. With more wounds than they used to have HP, it makes them much more resilient against massed S4/S5 AP-, that's probably for the best.
Assaulting units with non-shooty vehicles (like a transport that just disembarked its troops) seems like a pretty decent tarpitting/overwatch-absorbing tactic.
No words about how transports work though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and the barge doesn't get weaker as it looses wounds, so maybe only the bigger stuff will get stuff like that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/18 14:17:59
As an ork player, not only do the deffrollas sound like they have some functionality again, but now EVERYTHING can try to charge in, which makes me more excited than it should!
I don't care if a trukk will just bounce off a unit - the drivers need to do some krumpin'!
A trukk armed with a grabby klaw and Wrecking ball on the other hand.. Now even the Ork Vehicles are just as krumpy!
fresus wrote: It seems possible that many light vehicles will get a T6/4+ profile. With more wounds than they used to have HP, it makes them much more resilient against massed S4/S5 AP-, that's probably for the best.
Assaulting units with non-shooty vehicles (like a transport that just disembarked its troops) seems like a pretty decent tarpitting/overwatch-absorbing tactic.
No words about how transports work though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and the barge doesn't get weaker as it loses wounds, so maybe only the bigger stuff will get stuff like that.
I think that the Annihilation barge was a bad choice for the article.
In the current rules their quantum shielding makes them a lot tougher than their appearance would imply, yet they only show the base stats
fresus wrote: It seems possible that many light vehicles will get a T6/4+ profile. With more wounds than they used to have HP, it makes them much more resilient against massed S4/S5 AP-, that's probably for the best.
Assaulting units with non-shooty vehicles (like a transport that just disembarked its troops) seems like a pretty decent tarpitting/overwatch-absorbing tactic.
No words about how transports work though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and the barge doesn't get weaker as it loses wounds, so maybe only the bigger stuff will get stuff like that.
I think that the Annihilation barge was a bad choice for the article.
In the current rules their quantum shielding makes them a lot tougher than their appearance would imply, yet they only show the base stats
Agreed. Honestly, Trukk would have been a really interesting one to show instead.
As an ork player, not only do the deffrollas sound like they have some functionality again, but now EVERYTHING can try to charge in, which makes me more excited than it should!
I don't care if a trukk will just bounce off a unit - the drivers need to do some krumpin'!
Even as not an ork player I think this is a good way to show things like ramming or tank shocking, vs the old rules. I'd love to see vehicles get bonuses from charging when equipped with things like dozer blades etc. Also gives me hope that things like Sammeal in his land speeder might actually be able to fight in combat now.
fresus wrote: It seems possible that many light vehicles will get a T6/4+ profile. With more wounds than they used to have HP, it makes them much more resilient against massed S4/S5 AP-, that's probably for the best.
Assaulting units with non-shooty vehicles (like a transport that just disembarked its troops) seems like a pretty decent tarpitting/overwatch-absorbing tactic.
No words about how transports work though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and the barge doesn't get weaker as it loses wounds, so maybe only the bigger stuff will get stuff like that.
I think that the Annihilation barge was a bad choice for the article.
In the current rules their quantum shielding makes them a lot tougher than their appearance would imply, yet they only show the base stats
It could be that Quantum Shielding is gone, or maybe replaced by a self-repair mechanic that recovers wounds. Or maybe the lack of degradation in abilities is unique to Necrons due to Living Metal.
This goes back to my original point, though. If you're going to show us the Annihilation Barge, then show it properly, with its full rules and weapon loadout. There's so little information here. It's like GW heard of the concept of a teaser but didn't quite manage to grasp the whole thing.
fresus wrote: It seems possible that many light vehicles will get a T6/4+ profile. With more wounds than they used to have HP, it makes them much more resilient against massed S4/S5 AP-, that's probably for the best.
Assaulting units with non-shooty vehicles (like a transport that just disembarked its troops) seems like a pretty decent tarpitting/overwatch-absorbing tactic.
No words about how transports work though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and the barge doesn't get weaker as it loses wounds, so maybe only the bigger stuff will get stuff like that.
I think that the Annihilation barge was a bad choice for the article.
In the current rules their quantum shielding makes them a lot tougher than their appearance would imply, yet they only show the base stats
Agreed. Honestly, Trukk would have been a really interesting one to show instead.
Fair point.
Maybe some big necron vehicles will have a toughness that decreases as they take more wounds, to mimic quantum shielding.
I'm wondering what this does for mechanized tactics overall in 8th. It may be that transports (are least Necron transports) don't deteriorate with damage. Rhino castles, LoS blocking, board control schemes, all tactics that at least seem like they'll be enhanced with more durable vehicles. I wonder if the costs will change as well.
Like everything in this so far, but by all that's holy they need to get the freaking transport rules out already since so much of assault and everything else depends on what those rules are.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Like everything in this so far, but by all that's holy they need to get the freaking transport rules out already since so much of assault and everything else depends on what those rules are.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/18 15:14:49
Tank Shock is dead. Combine this with a flat to-hit system and you now have a game where you have a Schrodinger's Cat scenario where a vehicle manages to both hit and miss its target at the same time.
Let us suppose a (hypothetical) scenario where a Land Raider is surrounded by Grots. It can't Tank Shock and it wants to shoot its Lascannons at a more important target so it now rolls to charge.
It rolls to hit. It misses. Is this because the Land Raider has automatic braking? Is it because the Grot is made of iron? Who knows? Anyway, these puny things have stopped a giant monstrosity from moving in a sheer defiance of physics or sanity.
The Grots disengage and proceed to surround the Land Raider again.
MagicJuggler wrote: Tank Shock is dead. Combine this with a flat to-hit system and you now have a game where you have a Schrodinger's Cat scenario where a vehicle manages to both hit and miss its target at the same time.
Let us suppose a (hypothetical) scenario where a Land Raider is surrounded by Grots. It can't Tank Shock and it wants to shoot its Lascannons at a more important target so it now rolls to charge.
It rolls to hit. It misses. Is this because the Land Raider has automatic braking? Is it because the Grot is made of iron? Who knows? Anyway, these puny things have stopped a giant monstrosity from moving in a sheer defiance of physics or sanity.
The Grots disengage and proceed to surround the Land Raider again.
Welcome to 8th edition.
Or a scenario where an ork truk and a rhino are trying to slam into eachother but continuously miss.
MagicJuggler wrote: Tank Shock is dead. Combine this with a flat to-hit system and you now have a game where you have a Schrodinger's Cat scenario where a vehicle manages to both hit and miss its target at the same time.
Let us suppose a (hypothetical) scenario where a Land Raider is surrounded by Grots. It can't Tank Shock and it wants to shoot its Lascannons at a more important target so it now rolls to charge.
It rolls to hit. It misses. Is this because the Land Raider has automatic braking? Is it because the Grot is made of iron? Who knows? Anyway, these puny things have stopped a giant monstrosity from moving in a sheer defiance of physics or sanity.
The Grots disengage and proceed to surround the Land Raider again.
Welcome to 8th edition.
The Land Raider tries to Tank Shock a bunch of grots
The Land Raider fails a difficult terrain test and is immobilized by a bush
The next turn one of the grots rolls a 6 on the vehicle damage table and the Land Raider explodes
MagicJuggler wrote: Tank Shock is dead. Combine this with a flat to-hit system and you now have a game where you have a Schrodinger's Cat scenario where a vehicle manages to both hit and miss its target at the same time.
Let us suppose a (hypothetical) scenario where a Land Raider is surrounded by Grots. It can't Tank Shock and it wants to shoot its Lascannons at a more important target so it now rolls to charge.
It rolls to hit. It misses. Is this because the Land Raider has automatic braking? Is it because the Grot is made of iron? Who knows? Anyway, these puny things have stopped a giant monstrosity from moving in a sheer defiance of physics or sanity.
The Grots disengage and proceed to surround the Land Raider again.
Welcome to 8th edition.
The Land Raider tries to Tank Shock a bunch of grots
The Land Raider fails a difficult terrain test and is immobilized by a bush
The next turn one of the grots rolls a 6 on the vehicle damage table and the Land Raider explodes
Welcome to 7th edition.
Erm... What gun did the Grot use? Because it still has to Pen AV 14.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
MagicJuggler wrote: Tank Shock is dead. Combine this with a flat to-hit system and you now have a game where you have a Schrodinger's Cat scenario where a vehicle manages to both hit and miss its target at the same time.
Let us suppose a (hypothetical) scenario where a Land Raider is surrounded by Grots. It can't Tank Shock and it wants to shoot its Lascannons at a more important target so it now rolls to charge.
It rolls to hit. It misses. Is this because the Land Raider has automatic braking? Is it because the Grot is made of iron? Who knows? Anyway, these puny things have stopped a giant monstrosity from moving in a sheer defiance of physics or sanity.
The Grots disengage and proceed to surround the Land Raider again.
Welcome to 8th edition.
The Land Raider tries to Tank Shock a bunch of grots
The Land Raider fails a difficult terrain test and is immobilized by a bush
The next turn one of the grots rolls a 6 on the vehicle damage table and the Land Raider explodes
Welcome to 7th edition.
...I'm sorry, what alternate universe do you live in where Gretchin can damage things in melee?
Land Raiders didn't *care* about having to hide in terrain as much, simply since it was a specialized subset of weapons that hurt them (haywire/grav/d). The easiest way to immobilize one was to fish for a 6 on a Grav Cannon. Of course, this speaks more to Grav being too good, rather than vehicle rules as a whole.
MagicJuggler wrote: Tank Shock is dead. Combine this with a flat to-hit system and you now have a game where you have a Schrodinger's Cat scenario where a vehicle manages to both hit and miss its target at the same time.
Let us suppose a (hypothetical) scenario where a Land Raider is surrounded by Grots. It can't Tank Shock and it wants to shoot its Lascannons at a more important target so it now rolls to charge.
It rolls to hit. It misses. Is this because the Land Raider has automatic braking? Is it because the Grot is made of iron? Who knows? Anyway, these puny things have stopped a giant monstrosity from moving in a sheer defiance of physics or sanity.
The Grots disengage and proceed to surround the Land Raider again.
Welcome to 8th edition.
The Land Raider tries to Tank Shock a bunch of grots
The Land Raider fails a difficult terrain test and is immobilized by a bush
The next turn one of the grots rolls a 6 on the vehicle damage table and the Land Raider explodes
Welcome to 7th edition.
Erm... What gun did the Grot use? Because it still has to Pen AV 14.
MagicJuggler wrote: Tank Shock is dead. Combine this with a flat to-hit system and you now have a game where you have a Schrodinger's Cat scenario where a vehicle manages to both hit and miss its target at the same time.
Let us suppose a (hypothetical) scenario where a Land Raider is surrounded by Grots. It can't Tank Shock and it wants to shoot its Lascannons at a more important target so it now rolls to charge.
It rolls to hit. It misses. Is this because the Land Raider has automatic braking? Is it because the Grot is made of iron? Who knows? Anyway, these puny things have stopped a giant monstrosity from moving in a sheer defiance of physics or sanity.
The Grots disengage and proceed to surround the Land Raider again.
Welcome to 8th edition.
Or a scenario where an ork truk and a rhino are trying to slam into eachother but continuously miss.
I could easily see the ork driver doing that Could bounce around too much for the rhino to get a proper bearing
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/18 15:37:18
Land raiders dying wasn't why they weren't used in 7th. It's their points cost versus killynes so to speakl that was the real problem.
Also this is actually a hidden buff for assault heavy armies. You managed to charge that piece of moblie artillery? You may not have damged or killed it but it is now useless for a turn.
Land Raiders didn't *care* about having to hide in terrain as much, simply since it was a specialized subset of weapons that hurt them (haywire/grav/d). The easiest way to immobilize one was to fish for a 6 on a Grav Cannon. Of course, this speaks more to Grav being too good, rather than vehicle rules as a whole.
Can they still be immobilized by a bush? Yes they can. Can they still be one shot by a penetrating hit? Yes they can.
My point is that game abstractions can always be silly if you make them out to be. At least now they're uniformly silly and don't require a bunch of exceptions and special cases. In my opinion, it's a marked improvement.
How will charging work with vehicles turning, anyway? Can you turn a battlewagon from side to front while charging with it to get another couple inches of range?
Will you still need to charge one of the units you shot at, or can you shoot at something and charge at something entirely different now? Even if you can't, will the "can charge guys in a transport if you shot the transport and it popped" rule remain?
Will our games consist of vehicles Tokyo Drifting around with the side toward the enemy until it's time to ram stuff? Because if that's the case it's funny enough that I'll take back... Some of the bad things I've said about 8th.
Only those who don't understand statistics claim that mathhammer has no merit.
As someone who has played quite a few FPS games with vehicles in them, I can confirm that running over people who are both aware of your presence and trying to avoid you is harder than it looks. 6+ to hit is a little extreme, but it is hard enough to justify a roll to hit in general.
Which is why roadkills happen to friendlies more often than enemies... an enemy will pay immediate attention to your vehicle and actively avoid it. An ally will assume your vehicle is completely harmless, and run across the road right in front of you. Always evade a moving vehicle as if it was an enemy, people. Just because I don't want to hit you doesn't mean I can see you or stop in time to avoid it.
Anyway, I think it's interesting. I'm going to miss tank shock's ability to just run things clean off the board, but I also look forward to being able to do what is basically still a tank shock with any vehicle. I do hope that tanks apply some kind of penalty to enemy battleshock when they assault though, just to keep that "tanks be scary" vibe.
Another interesting factor is since vehicles now use the same assault rules as everything else, a unit assaulted by a tank is "stuck in" and would have to declare a fall-back move to get out of it. Combined with the removal of rear armor and that means you can tarpit (to such an extent as tarpit still exists) with a vehicle. For example, roll up on an enemy with a Chimera and a squad inside. Drop the squad off about 6" away, shoot with the squad, then assault with the Chimera. Now the enemy unit can't shoot back on their next turn, either they have to stay stuck-in with the Chimera, or they have to fall back, sacrifice their shooting, and still be in rapid-fire range!
Gaunts or Boyz bearing down on you? Shoot 'em with your infantry, then charge the Chimeras in to tarpit them. Disengaging from the Chimeras would force them to move *away* from your infantry (and get shot more), but staying stuck-in would leave them tied up and your infantry free to shoot other things, like maybe the anti-tank units they're going to try to use to break said tarpit.
I wonder if dozer blades will count as a close combat weapon, and I wonder if vehicle close combat weapons will improve that abysmal 6+ to hit. Though I expect vehicles *meant* for CC will probably actually have a decent WS like 4+ or so.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/18 15:57:37
2800 
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Could bounce around too much for the rhino to get a proper bearing 
