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Going first is always helpful, unless you got a board you can manipulate but lets not forget we can declare canticles at the beginning of the game now, not on the start of our turn! This is a huge boon as we can give the cover bonus to all our models or some of the other ones.

And to just beat those skeptics or detractors, canticles are declared at the start of each battleround: a battleround is the start- end of both players turns. (corerulebook: battlerounds.)

Mandragola wrote:
I’m a bit baffled by the degree people prefer vanguard over rangers. 30” range, occasional ap-1 and better strength mean that rangers do better damage to MEQs at all ranges, except 15-18”. Reducing the enemy’s toughness by 1 in melee doesn’t really do very much, when admech have so few units able to take advantage of it.

I think that both of the 6 to wound abilities are probably going to be negligible in effect, though the vanguard one does at least help if you’re shooting at tough models. The ranger one works on 1 shot in 36 (when you roll a 6 to wound and they roll the number for their save that would have saved them but now doesn’t). The vanguard one is harder to calculate, since it has no effect on 1-wound models, who are kind of the primary target of vanguard.

I don’t hate vanguard, I just think the two units are probably roughly equivalent. I think you probably give plasma to vanguard, Transuranic to rangers and arc rifles to whichever you like.

I realise that long-range fire from rangers doesn’t do huge amounts – but it does something. Games are often won and lost because of a model here or there on an objective, and being able to snipe a few away will be useful.

I’ve skipped the argument on destroyers. I will say that I think it looks like plasma ones do very respectable damage, to just about anything. Each one is, in effect, armed with a battlecannon, plus a phosphor blaster. With a TPD nearby they shouldn’t blow up too much.

Speaking of the TPD, I think any of his weapons could work. The ray gun is probably coolest. I think the serpeta is the least fun. You get to fire it with your other weapon, but it doesn’t do a lot. I’d rather have the pistol for if I get caught in combat, and to save a couple of points.

I was lucky enough to win a starter set and a box of skitarii rangers/vanguard as prizes in a couple of tournaments. I’m thinking of running them with my 3 existing knights in a list like this:

Superheavy detachment
Warden with reaper, stubber, flamer. 466
Paladin with reaper, 2 stubbers. 458
Errant with fist, stubber. 436
Patrol detachment
TPD with neutron and stubber. 141
5 rangers with 2 arc rifles 58
5 rangers with 2 transuronics 100
3 destroyers with plasma and blasters 210
Icarus dunecrawler 130
I don’t own the destroyers yet. I’ve just done some adding up and spotted that two Phosphor robots with a datasmith would cost only a bit more, but are probably quite a lot better. Any suggestions on where I could save the 40 points – or should I instead just field all 20 of the Skitarii I own?

Ironically my army is actually from Mars. My knights are house Taranis – painted up to go with my pre-heresy imperial fists (who pay a visit to mars in the early days of the heresy).

The Errant has a fist just because it looks good that way, by the way. I think the reaper is almost always better, but then it can always kick things. It would probably be better if all my knights were crusaders, but then I wouldn’t be able to take any fun stuff.

So I guess the question is: should I buy robots, destroyers, or nothing and just run my infantry? In the longer term I think I’ll pick up Cawl and maybe another starter set to expand the army further, so I expect both will come in useful. I still have the sprue from the warden with the carapace weapons for the knights, so I could stick a couple of those on to make up points. My other knights are too old to have come with the sprue, sadly.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I only take Rangers (now in 8th) when I give them sniper rifles and camp on objectives. Vanguards for me have been a "I can't ever see a reasons to take rangers over them" for two main reasons; first 30 shots at 18" and 30 more shots on overwatch. It just drowns your enemies in sheer volley fire. It doesn't matter what their units are, be it an ork boy or a terminator they are going to winch when they see you pick up that many die. The second is actually the minues one toughness. The fact that I can wound ork boyz or marines on a 4+ in melee is huge*. Especially if you take sergeants with melee kits. As others have stated, see sargent with power mace or taser goad with either pistol, suddenly does much more work than one would expect, rangers aren't bad, and work well in the case you metioned (sit far away on an objective and take advantage of their 30" range). They can also molest marines and other 24" range units to force them out of cover or take odd casualites for being defensive. But due to my local meta heavily favoring, 1/2 turn charges, they play Tyranids, Orkz, Chaos, the volley fire for me has been much more useful. This may change as our groups meta changes.

*Remember, combo this with +1 Strength Canticle and suddenly you're wounding stuff on a 2+. My disco tech priests become even more scary when they are attack with their now S6, AP-1 Mortal wound on 6s on marines who are thoughness 3 when tied up in melee. Vanguard just like in 7th seem to be a huge synergy unit.

So some more input for you guys. I've played five games as Admech this week thus far. All of my lists were experimental and concerned variety over competitiveness (my opponents did the same) as we are all still on the learning curve of 8th. I fought Thousands suns 3 times and Orks/tyranids once.

HQs Cawl, TPD

Troops: 10 man Vanguard 3 plasma+omixpex, 10 Vanguard 3 arc rifles+omispex, 5 rangers, 2 snipers
Troops (heavy): 3 destroyers with heavy plasma and phospher, 3 destroyers, heavy grav and phospher, 3 breachers, arch claws and torsion cannons
Heavy: 2 Onegars with Iccaris array, Rock em sock em robots (range) with datasmith
Elites: 10 elctro disco priests, 10 jazz hands electro priests, 5 iniftrators (tasergoads) and 5 ruststalkers razors/chordclaws

This was my core for each game (add a few or subtract a few based on whim and point value change).

Thoughts and experinces. FYI, this is just how my forces performed.
Overall, Admech is a fantastic shooty army and surprisingly durable (overall). Obviously, they are slow and any objective style game will probably lose, almost guarteed, unless you spam ruststalkers or infiltrators. I'm assuming the codex will address this, because I am not exaggerating when I say, it's an autolose if you play objective games (where you'll have to goto your enemy). Stay in cover and abuse canticles, they are not as good as 7th, but they are far more important. Cawl is a MUST, don't bother playing Admech without him. Aruguably the worst part about Admech is Cawl, as any army that requires a specific hero unit to work is nonfunctional, and shows the GW team really dropped the ball hard here. I don't think the army is even competitive without Cawl. I say this because in all 5 games, his synergy buff of rerolls to hit was what carried the army every game. As soon as Cawl was killed (not hard to do in this edition FYI) or pushed away, all my guns simply didn't cut it, nor were they worth their costs. Even the rock em sock em robots with 18 shots don't do well without Cawl. In summary, fun army, but only one playstyle: Cawl, destroyers/Robots range build. No other way to play sadly, or so it seems (still new and too early to call any "This is how it is!")

Good news, Vangard and Rangers both performed well in all games. Dish out damage and can threaten anything. Bad news: they are weaker than glass. Even in cover and with their 6++, it doesn't mean jack. They need some sort of buff or point reduction or an extra save like before. A 6+ feel no pain would give them something much beter than their paultry 6++.
Vanguard are my best all around units, they tied up enemeies for about 1-2 rounds and can throw out so much dakka. More importantly, they hold gaunts or boyz long enough for my electropriests to countercharge.
Rangers, with snipers are amazing. They quickly became the biggest psychological threat on the battlefeild with their powerful sniper rifles. To the point that my opponents were firing all of their Laz cannons at the squad in hopes to remove them. Also Rangers overwatch with 2 shots each, I forgot that they have 30" range cut in have means all charges are double tapping. More useful than one might think.

Combat servitors: Overall, second best unit outside the Robots. The heavy grav cannon/phospher and heavy plasma cannon/phospher threw out lots of very powerful shots. Combined with Cawl's re-rolls (THIS IS A MUST OR DONT TAKE THEM, not a TPD but CAWL, BS4 is not good enough to justify their costs) and the other TPD repairing the squads each turn, made them soak most small arms fire with ease and just recovered next round from repairs. They delted terminator squads and ork boyz with equal effecitancy. I agree, that they are still too expensive considering by themsevles, they might be utter crap, but when babysat by Cawl, TDP or even just a techpreists (who can also repair them and is cheaper than the other two), these things in cover can be hard to kill and project a very large threat bubble. Weakness, too freakin expensive. I could have bought an Imperial knight fully kitted out with every bell and whistle and still would have been cheaper than these three squads, and possibly more useful.
Weakness: Super expensive. Also super fragile towards heavy hitters. Plasma and greater will melt these bastards. As soon as my opponents dealth with my Ranger snipers they'd turn their heavy weapons to these guys. Great at absorbing small arms fire, horrible at big guns. T5 and 3W with only a 3/4+ save won't suffice. I lost one to each lazcannon shot, even in cover/canticles.
Breachers were the worst unit I had each game. The Torsion cannons, never performed. I did do 3 dmg to a landraider with it. Nothing else was ever hit or killed by them in all 5 games. This did have bad luck involved, will keep using them but they are looking to be the worst unit in the codex in my mind thus far.

Onegars and Rock em sockem robots are the freakin bees knees. I cannot sing their praises enough, my opponets describe them as overpowered. I call them cool. FYI my opponets stopped firing (range shots) at both of these units due to their invulerable saves. Onegars, I actually recommend 3 of, due to if you lose one you lose the reroll of 1++save. It does makes the difference and its not a tax, because they are awesome. Note, Cognis Stubbors are overpriced. Don't take them. They didn't do anything in any of my games. If they come down to 5 pts per, I think they will be worth it but at 8pts per, just take more of other units.
Rock em Sock em robots, pretty much the same summary as the breachers/destroyers, ignores small arms, but relatively weak to heavy shots, but these guys I feel are appropriately costed and cheaper would be too good, anymore and they wouldn't be worth it. I lost a robot each game to a Lazcannon shot. Ageis mode is awesome. Not just for the 2+/4++ but the mortal wounds on 5/6++. KEEP THAT ABILITY IN MIND for my conclusion section.
Datasmith did his job, repaired and changed protocols, I won't say mandatory, but I can't think of any reason why you wouldn't want to take him, and he is not too expensive either.

Infiltrators: currently a must due to them being able to deep strike equivalnt. However, they never once did anything in any of my games. As they always died before they could charge. Their stubcarbine is surprisingly effective. Killed many orks, Gaunts and even some Rubric marines with their S4 and large volley fire. This is primarily bad luck. I even took 2 squads of 10 in one match. Failed every charge. And then were quickly blown off the table. I think they need either a speed buff or maybe a 5++ like in 7th. As the 2 wounds 4+6++ is not enough. Again, like the Vanguards/rangers/Breachers/Destroyers, I think a 6+ feel no pain, would do them all a great service.
Ruststalkers: Great! Cheap unit at 100pts, quick and excellent counter-chargers. I place these guys out of LOS and just behind my Vanguards or Breachers/Destroyers. Anything that gets too close, they either run out to become a human/robot shield or their countercharge causes much grief to my opponets. In particular, Chordclaws are awesome. These guys melted a 5 man terminator squad and Rubric marines. Super squishy, don't expect them to survive a countercharge. They are a hit once and whipe unit. If they don't wipe the enemy, and your opponents does not think the original unit he charged is still worth attack and pick these ruststalkers instead, don't expect any to survive. Also ALWAYS keep them out of LOS. They die to a stiff breeze. Again, would really benfit fomr a 5/6+ Feel not pain. Or at least a 5++!

Electropreists: laughbly bad in 7th, arugably most improved in 8th. Although more expensive than 7th, for 140/160 pts for Disco Sticks and Jazz hands, they are worth every point. Causing mortal wounds by just charging (roll a D6 for every enemey model in the charged unit,every 6 is a mortal wound), quickly made both my buddies hate them almost as much as my Destroyers and Robots. Discosticks if they get the charge off, just desytroy whatever they hit. S5 AP-2 DD3 6 D3mortal wounds, is nuts. After the first two games, both my opponets prioritized these guys, even over my snipers. Keep them out of LOS cause although a 5++/5+++ is not terrible, its not good either. Truest defintion of a glass cannon.
Jazzhands: I thought these guys were going to be crap quite frankly. Now they might be my favorite assualt unit in the army. 3 shots each at S5 and explode on 6s is SO MUCH BETTER in game than on paper. IF these guys are near Cawl... omg... It might even be worth it to take a TPD along with these mooks for his rerolls of 1. After all my games, I know this. I am buying 10 more Jazzhands (alrady have 10) and one more box of Rock em sockem robots. There was a round that I rolled 39 hits from my 10 man squad and was wounding on 3s (rubric marines), I killed the whole squad outright. Just like the discosticks though, these guys are super soft and my opponets after seeing their better than Vanguard like shot output, immediatly began focus firing on them. They aren't too survivable... Just a heads up.


Right now the army feels incomplete. I also play Deamons/Chaos, Space marines and Tyranids (thus far in 8th but not the others) and all of those factions feel fleshed out. Admech feels like its missing some core pieces, their complete lack of transports and fragile but high cost infantry is confusing at best, but servicable. The combat servitors, Robots and Cawl are sadly seem to be the center of the army and everything else might be to serve that force. At least its kinda fulffy, if nothing else. Right now, I'm building a new 2k list and going to inculde some striders drop some of the combat servitors and replace them with more vanguards/rangers to see how those will perform in greater numbers. Lastly, I think Admech might require fortifications to be proper. In particular a Bastion and/or a Void Shield generator. Bastion (or bunker) will allows 6 desyroyers of Grav or Plasma to fire with impunity for the first two turns of the game, at the loss of increased accuracy due to no longer reciving Cawl or TPD buffs. Canticles should still help though with rolls of 1.
The second and most obvious one is the Shield generator, which effectively is the answer to all my criticisms. Put Vanguard/rangers/breachers/desyroyers with a 4++ negates most of my thoughts on their biggest weaknesses.

Overall, first week impressions is they might be too expensive pointweise overall. I'd like to see slight buffs or slight point reductions in Vanguards and rangers maybe like 8/9pts per model or give them a 6+++ feel no paint. Breachers/Destyroyers, are powerful but they need either a 5++ or a 5+++ feel no pain to help mitagate Krak/plasma/Lazcannon fire as currently its too easy to kill these super epxensive units. That or drop their points. I think Desyroyers would be well costed at about 190/200pts and Breachers are stupidly overpriced, with their thiny amount of shots and short range. I'd say drop these guys to 150 for Trosion cannon and powerclaws and I'd think they'd be worth it.

Sicarians in general, might need some cost reducton, not too much. 100-140 pts is quite reasonable, but maybe increase their points to about 120-160 but give them all a 5++ and/or a 5/6+++ feel no pain and bam. I think they'd be very viable.

*note there is potential for abuse here. Rock em sock em robots Ageis rules specifically states add plus 1 to regualr and invulnerable saves. If they have are within the shield generator, they will have a 3++ save with Ageis and reflect on 5/6++. No one, I mean no one, will bother to shoot them.

 Aaranis wrote:

 Tsol wrote:
So some more input for you guys. I've played five games as Admech this week thus far. All of my lists were experimental and concerned variety over competitiveness (my opponents did the same) as we are all still on the learning curve of 8th. I fought Thousands suns 3 times and Orks/tyranids once....

Thanks for taking the time to write all this, really good to read and provides us a fresh view from what we usually see in this thread (AKA Dakkastelan spam). I'm glad the Electro-Priests might have a use beyond collecting dust in 8th, if we do get a transport they'll be a must take I feel. And to say I sold the 5 Priests I got in my Eradication Cohort box... their models are expensive to buy :/ (as with all Mechanicus sadly). Have you ever tried the Robots equipped with fists, AKA Fistellans ? I tried a game with them but my opponent's list was too specific for it to be successful. I think they have a great potential. I wonder if having two squads of Robots in Aegis Protocols to move up the field with the rest of the army might be nice or not, one squad in full shooting and the other with Cremators/Fists.

It feels like if we want to have a viable army WITHOUT Cawl we need some allies from the Imperium. I'll go with two squads of Vigilator Sisters of Silence and the Scions from their Start Collecting box, that'll add me a fast transport and/or deep strike capabilities, as well as powerful shooting.

No problem. The last two weeks, I've been reading and watching as many battle reports online as possible until I finally got my buddies to start building lists so we can test things out. And I love Admech models but to be honest, I played about 10 games of Tyrands before I touched any other army, simply because they are my faves, and its about damn time they didn't suck. But I felt that there wasn't enough info or enough practical info up on any sites, so I shared what I've seen thus far. I almost bought that box! In hindsight I wish I had, but just a heads up. Ebay has electro priests for about 32-36 USD free shipping. If you like I can even point you towards some bits sellers who will sell you the heads/bodies of them as well for about $15. I got all 20 of mine buy buying two boxes of them and then bought bits heads/bodies for a 1/3 of the price and used up all my spare bits, literally my sprues are empty, as the box gives you enough to make both types if you get extra heads/bodies.

I was very tempted to take fisty robots, as with canticles they can the rerolls of 1 to hit or +1 strength for that extra spice, but I never did. Mostly due to the fact, I played armies that were always going to be better than me at melee (orks/tyranids) or armies which I didn't need that kind of melee power (thousand suns). However, I can tell you from my experience with carnifexes, (i run at least 3 per list) which have a very similar statline. Are sadly not really good. Not bad mind you, but not good. Hitting on 4+ with only 3-6 attacks is not reliable. Carnifexes has old one eye, who gives them 3+ to hit and scything talons grant rerolls of 1, which make them very, very mean. But without those buffs, my first couple games all they did was miss or kill one random mook. I fear the rock em sockem robots, will not be worth their points for the melee kit, due to both the fists being very expensive and their only average 4+ to hit. Maybe with the double melee and some luck you can do real work with them, but I'm skeptical. I now ONLY take Carnifexes with old one eye, no reason not too as he is such a powerful force multiplier he makes them worth all their points. The robots without some sort of buff to compensate for their poor to hit rolls, to me won't be worth it (unless targeting buildings or maybe vehicles/monstrous creatures, where just 4 hits should be enough to kill the unit). In short, the fists like all fists I've seen be it on termies or dreadnaughts, should be applies to small units of powerful stuff or buildings/vehicles. Stock, don't expect much as 2 hits will be your average per robot and that may not be enought to do the job for tanks or mosterious creatures but should do the job for heros. With buffs, such as rerolls of melee 1s and double attacks, I think they could prove very deadly to just about anything other than swarms. Again, this is me extrapolating my carnifex experience, not playtime of robots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Azegoroth wrote:

 Tsol wrote:
So some more input for you guys. I've played five games as Admech this week thus far. All of my lists were experimental and concerned variety over competitiveness (my opponents did the same) as we are all still on the learning curve of 8th. I fought Thousands suns 3 times and Orks/tyranids once....

Cool stuff, Just one little thing, The Discostick/Jazzhands charge rule is one d6 per model in the Charging unit, so one per suviving priest, not per enemy.
Otherwise, good to know that the kataphrons can dish out some hurt, Sadly I don't have cawl yet, but 2x Dominus should tide me over until I can get the big guy.

Thanks for the correction! I'll tell my mates, they'll be glad to hear I was doing it wrong. Cawl is worth it, not just as an army HQ (which sadly, I can't recommend playing Admech without him, at least until we get a codex to add our fluffy rules back which may help mitigate 8th overall lack of depth) but also as a freaking cool model. I spent about 15 hours painting him and I still never get tired of looking at his awesome design and style, not to mention it will grab lots of attention whereever it goes. The TPDs I have no idea if they are good or not, not once in any of my five games, did they do anything other than repair my Kataphrons or Cawl and grant their passive rerolls of 1 for shooting. My opponents never shot at them, never charged them and never got close enough for me to shoot with em. I feel like they might be too expensive though. At about 135pts, maybe if they boosted their buff to include melee rerolls, I think this would grant them enough synergy buff to include 1-3 in each of your detachments.

str00dles1 wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:

 gally912 wrote:
The new faq seems to contradict you st00dles1.

No, because you allocate the wounds, then you make all the saves. This all happens at once.

How what the FAQ states is how the game normally flows. You do each shooting attack separate. And example is a Knight Titan shooting its battle cannon and gatling cannon at a single squad. Shooter picks and resolved 1 weapon fully, then the next. so between removing dead models outside of cover for the one attack, the squad can now gain cover for the next of the attacks at it.

Oh reaaaaaally?
I never say things without proof.
https://twitter.com/rvd1ofakind/status/871305345636999168

Twitter is not any proof. Just how people's questions on Facebook and the answers they give mean nothing in any sort of tourney.

Just a heads up; first day FAQ explicitly says you can do this. It's on the GW page right next to the PDF of the Core rules. You can indeed do it. Both the Devs have said so and its official errata/FAQ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Verviedi wrote:
I really do need to grab some Kastellans, but I really, really dislike the models. I know there was a 3D printed conversion kit to make their heads into Castellax-like pods, do any of you know where to find that?

!!!

I feel like I am the only one who loves the robots look. Admittedly I am a huge old sci-fi buff/nerd and the fact they look like 1950s robots made me buy 2 boxes of them when they first launched.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

str00dles1 wrote:

 Castellan Alaric wrote:
So is everyone disliking the plasma culverin's on kataphrons? I have had GREAT results with it versus vehicles in particular. I have a dominus nearby (I don't have Cawl yet...) for reroll 1's and overcharge every turn. I have killed a full health chimera in a turn with 3 kataphrons. The random shot number is a pain, for sure, but I struggle to stick wounds on ANYTHING with my grav cannons. Maybe it's because more vehicles are coming out and the s5 grav just won't wound as much? I am much more pro-plasma this edition, that s8 from overcharging is great. I also stuck like 11 wounds on a lord of skulls in 1 round of shooting between 5 kataphrons my last game out. I did finally end up losing some kataphrons to the plasma overheat, but that's because my dominus got punked by a knight, so I didn't have rerolls. If you have the reroll 1's I think you can make plasma work for sure.

I haven't had much luck with the transonic arquebus, though I love the idea and want to make it work. I wish I had more plasma calivers for my vanguard I have built (I started with 2 start collecting boxes so I only got 2 of each special). I'll have to get either another start collecting box (another dunecrawler too ) or just get some more vanguard/ranger models in their own kit so I can keep up the msu + loads of special weapons. Are cc weapons on the sergeants completely not worth it? I tried a power sword and couldn't stick wounds with s3 but the arc maul making you s5 helped a bunch!

Thanks for listening.

Over all, the general consensus is the Kataphons are poop. I own 6, so I wish they were good but I personally don't like them. They don't fit in a role really. Robots are for killing all but the most heavy armored and wounded models, then the Icarus/Laser Spider Tank can take on that target easily. They cost way way to much to be useable. I can spend 200 on 4 groups of troops to bubble wrap my forces. I can spend 220 on 3 kataphons that don't do as well as robots or the spider tanks.

Glad they work, but I wont use them unless they get a lot cheaper.

I don't think they are poop but your criticism is not unfounded. Breaches/destroyers (from my very limited experience in 8th [only 6 games with Admech thus far]) are very powerful when combined with Cawl. Rerolls effectively give you extreme damage output and accuracy. However at a huge point investment. 250 for cawl and 440 for two squads of destroyers. For an obscene cost of almost half your army list you get 3 units which are super easy to kill but can commit a lot of firepower. You might just be better off taking an Imperial knight and using the left over change to buy another troop choice fully kitted out. I still haven't made up my mind on how they play cause I need more play testing with them, but I fully agree that their current price is simply too expensive. And unless you take Cawl to babysit them, I would say don't even bother taking them.

Suzuteo wrote:

rvd1ofakind wrote:Eh, I don't really have a problem filling the brigade req:
Smith (a must)
Infiltrators (a must)
Priests (counter-charge)

str00dles1 wrote:Yea, a min squad of priests is dirt cheap, 70 and 80 pts.

I would much rather have the combiweapons. And if the shields provide an aura, I would definitely go for it.

gally912 wrote:So a couple rules questions came up today.

Does the cognis weapon rule stack with the heavy weapon penalty? (Making them hit on 6's, essentially)

The TPD and Cawl re-roll rules only apply in shooting phase, and not during overwatch, correct? (Unlike a good portion of other re-roll rules from other factions)

I believe so. You move, you get -1. You advance, you get -2. You also don't get to reroll hits that are successful before modifiers.

Don't have my index on hand, but doesn't the Crab have a special rule that it does not suffer the heavy weapon penalty? You should only suffer a -1 pen for advancing. But I may be wrong, if someone could check and reply (unless I get home and do it first).

Haywire should not be overlooked, I do agree, its pretty crap against vehicles. (I still have not done a single wound to a vehicle with one) but they are surprising effective against infantry. Hight Strength plus a okay AP for a wonderful 4 pts, is hard to pass up.

Just a heads up to those still on the fence or think the Electro-priests are not good (or their other counterparts). They are really, really good. Fully worth their points.

If you go ranged, take 10. Throwing 30 shots out with 6s exploding often means you'll get all thirty hits in total, and if you have a Dominus or (hotdamn) Cawl, expect to hit and wound more than you actually shot with. I've had two times now where I shot 30 dice and ended up hitting 40+ (with techpreists buffs). Terminators armor or not, you will not save 30 2+ saves.

The Disco Stick dudes, completely overshadow Sicarians and infilrators, (infiltrators still have their role of deep striking though) so much so, that they made sicarians a meaningless choice. Don't get me wrong, I love the models and still use them because they look cool, but if you want a unit which is more survivable and will always do better in melee, for like 20 pts more, take the disco preists.

The biggest problem with the preists is their lack of good movement (6 is not bad, but still to slow to move across the table). If they had a transport or some other means to move, their lack of good save could be forgivable. Meaning, they are weak to all types of fire, small arms or big. Oddly enough, after a few games, your opponets will not fire their big guns at them, if better targets are avaiable. Their 5++ and 5+++, are shockingly good at ignoring Lazcannons and missles. But surpisingly poor at absorbing Lazguns/autogun fire. Despite their realtivily poor saves, they are still hardier than Sicarians. Whom although have a 4+/6++, simply does not keep the umph and consitution of a 5++/5+++. Making the Priests actually better armored than the Sicarians, math hammer wise and in practical play.

I have still only 8 games of Admech under my belt in 8th, but I can already tell that Sicarians (although much cheaper) are anemic. They lack the punch, movement and survivablity of their last iteration and are wholly outclassed by the priests in range and melee, even in armor saves (with maybe the exception of being in cover/canticles for that nice 3+ save.

My opponents now focus fire on my priests or altogether avoid getting into combat range with them whenvever possible due to the sheer amount of shots and mortal wounds they dish out. So, keep them out of line of sight. Or they'll be dead before they can act.

As a slight tangent, I don't know how I feel about Sicarians... I love the models. I have 25 of them; 15 Sicarians and 10 Infiltrators. But they have never performed in any of my games. Either being shot off the objective they are standing on, or quickly dying to countercharge/retaltiation combat in melee. The transonic razor and blade are simply poor weapons. I actually think GW rules writers, simply didn't know or didn't care on how to make their rules. They are so lack luster and blantantly weak, that I have a feeling, this was intentional. The Razor should be a powersword. S/User/S+1, AP-2/3 on 6 mortal wounds or cause D3 regualr damage. Or keep their old rules, Razor S/User, Ap-1 Blades Attacks +1 (due to two swords) S/+1 or S/+2 AP-2. Tranzsonic aura: After the first round of combat, count the razor/blade as AP -4.

I could understand why they might not want to give it Stregth +2 due to canticles boosting them up to S7 meaning they could seriously threaten vehicales, but I also think that, that threat would make them more viable and reasons to take them.

OR! They could keep their "blah" rules, and make them hardier. Give them a 4+/5++ and a 5+++ or 6+++. Thus granting them some surviablity and making them more hardy than the priests. Giving you a reason and a distinct advantage but different tactical role to the priests. They are fast, have okay melee and decent shooting and can probaly surive a round of shooting from small arms fire like Lazguns or autoguns. Maybe not so much bolters/heavy bolters, but everything less than. Their sorry save of 4+/6++ is crap. And borders on the question of Why? Why not a 5++ like before or many of the other units in the faction. Or at least a 6+++, just to give you that holy grail of "Just maaaybe!".

So, Sicarins are soooo... "feh" rules wise and unit composition that I actually think this is what happened:

Obviously, they want people to buy the priests so they buffed them super hard. But in doing so, they would need to make the Sicarians a different animal, instead, they just made them fill the same rule and make them worse at said role all around. So they intentionally made them worse and borderline removed them as a viable unit to force the other options: Infiltrators or Priests.

Although I agree, it probably wasn't a "nerf" as in this is them trying to rebalance infiltrators, but was indeed probaby a misprint, but it is a nerf in the sense, they took an already overcosted and particulary squishy unit and removed its main strength. 3 attacks that explode on 6s.

If I wasn't in love with the model(s), and if they weren't the only means of deepstrike currently, I'd say skip them. Simply not worth it. Right now, I am and most other Admech players I have talked to, view them as a neccesary evil. They take them not because they are good, but because they are all we have. Need to get that linebreaker, need something to attack/deepstrike something away from deployment. This is your only unit option.

I fear 10 attacks at 150 with no AP, for me may not be worth. I thought they were worth their points simply due to their rate of fire and attacks. 15 Macrostubbors and 15 attacks meant, they can throw out a bunch of "light" dakka and "light" attacks in they could get into melee. Now they still dish out lots of light dakka but deal average amount of attacks.

As a Tyranid player I can easily tell you 10 attacks without any AP is pretty crap. If I get a Ravenor squad or Hormagaunt into melee, and I am not throwing at least 30 dice, I assume they aren't going to do gak. Now I'm viewing this same concept with a much more expensive unit and a lot less hardy unit.

In short. They made an already questionably effective unit into a pigion holed unit. You take it now ONLY for deepstriking. It has no other purpose. Don't get me wrong, Admech as an army is still pretty darn strong, but its biggest weakness both in game mechanics and as an army, is it lacks diversity. It has a more redudancy units or units which are simply outclassed in the same field by more effeient points spending/other models that there is no reason to take them than all the other armies I have and played.

This has me very worried that we may see the first signs of 8th editions weakness, uninspired rules writers. I can't speak for the rest of you, but I hope when Admech Codex comes out, we get a complete overhaul. I'd rather see our whole army redone as I don't like the way it plays, nor do I like our rules. I'm not saying we should revert to 7th style (god, was that a rough edition... But if nothing else, all our units were cool and unique and had roles to fill, heck even the priests did, they were just overcosted) but after playing about 10 matches with Admech, I find that I'm leaning more and more towards using only select units instead of diverse forces. Pretty much the opposite of what I'm doing with all other armies; Tyranids, Guard, Marines, whom play very well with combined arms, Admech seem to be just bring big guns and don't bother with anything else.

"Litany of the Electromancer
Roll a D6 for each enemy unit that
is within 1" of any affected units; on
a roll of 6, the unit being rolled for
suffers D3 mortal wounds."

Roll 1 die in your example. By wording, no matter how many sources, you only roll for one. However, one unit if in melee with three other enemy units would cause them all to roll a die each.

I recant! I just reread it like three times, you would indeed roll 2 dice in your example. As it says, "Roll a D6 for each enemy unit that is within 1" of any affected units"

Suzuteo wrote:

Aaranis wrote:
Alright I mixed up some rules but my explanation still works, it says that when this unit is placed the Aegis Protocol is on, just like in 7th. So you still have two shooting phases from your opponent (IF he gets first turn) that goes in the Aegis Protocol. What I mixed up was with the Canticles, which are indeed decided upon each Battle Round. Sorry.

MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
Why would your opponent get a turn to shoot at Kastelans without Aegis? Protocols are decided at the beginning of your movement phase, it sounds like you are mixing them up with Canticles? i.e. Conqueror protocol is set at the beginning of the second movement phase

I think there may be some misunderstandings here.

Keep in mind three facts:
1) When set up, your Kastelan uses Aegis Protocol.
2) You attempt to change protocols at the start of your Movement phase.
3) The protocol change takes effect at the start of the next battle round. (Before or after Canticles, your choice.)

Here are the rules as written:

Battle Protocols: When this unit is set up, the Aegis Protocol (see below) is in effect. You can attempt to change the unit’s battle protocol at the start of each of your Movement phases if there is a friendly <FORGE WORLD> Cybernetica Datasmith within 6". To do so, roll a D6; on a 2+ the attempt is successful and you can select any one of the three battle protocols to take effect from the start of the next battle round. Otherwise, the attempt fails and the unit’s current protocol remains in effect.

If you go second, you always go second in each battle round. That means there will be one turn where you are exposed to enemy fire without Aegis.

Wulfey wrote:Does anyone know how Litany of the Electromancer works? WHen does the 1" get measured? At the start of the battle round? Once at any time during the battle round? WHose turn does it take place?

At the start of your battle round (which is BEFORE your turn, even if you go first), you roll for Canticles. If you get Litany, then you look at every unit that is in a 100% AdMech detachment (units in detachments with any non-AdMech units are NOT affected by Canticles). Pick out every enemy unit within 1" of these units. Roll a single D6 for each of these enemy units. If you get 6, you roll D3 and deal that many mortal wounds to that unit.

Litany of the Electromancer
Roll a D6 for each enemy unit that is within 1" of any affected units; on a roll of 6, the unit being rolled for suffers D3 mortal wounds.

I think you mispoke here, as all of what you said is correct, except the Ageis part. I double checked the rules on the Robots and they do start with Ageis in effect. Not activating on your turn but on deployment as it says when this unit is setup it is already in Ageis.

I still run 2 10 vanguard squads at full for most my lists. I give one squad 3 palsma, the other 3 arc rifles, both omispex depnding on my opponent, I'll ran a 10 man ranger squad with only omispex, and probably 1 or 2 five man squads of of rangers with one or two snipers.

This would normally be a horrible idea, but I play a little of everything and I play for Rule of Cool and fluff over hyper competitiveness. But taking bigger squads isnt autolose, they can still work.

My lists always contain Breachers, Desyroyers, and Robots. These things often draw the most fire, due to the sheer amount of firepower they throw out. My Vanguard and Rangers often don't get shot till about turn three due to target priorities.

Its almost the same tactic I use with my Tyranids, they don't bother shooting my devilgaunts because the distratafex is only 8" away.

Two of my last games, my 10 man ranger squad was never even shot at. All fire was directed at my heavy guns. And the rangers did well, their long range and random AP-1 and omispex to ingore cover would pop rubrics and Chaos space marines every so often


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Though if you really wanted to be more competitive, you can still run those 10 man squads but only give them arc rifles. Their volume of shots and the cheapness of the arc rifles makes for a glass cannon of a unit.

I'll check my book in a few (heading home from work) but if my memory serves, the table is effectivly treated as a 2d plane. All effects of prior editions and reasons are thrown out in 8th. I think if you just get underneath them, you can attack them. Will confirm soon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I doubled checked the rules (my group plays 5th edition terrain rules so I'm not too familiar and I recommend every else does the same but still keep the rest of 8th) and the core rule book does not directly addres the issue.

You will need to come to an agreement with your opponet before gameplay and terrain is setup.

If you want the straightforward and literal use. Treat terrain as literal as possible, units can only travel what they can travel, doorways, ladders and such. However, I would also keep the base rules intact, units can interact with other units on different floors if they are at least 6" vertical. I'm using this from the movement section of the rules. Just for simplicity.

If you want tighter and more tactical. I would say 3" forgiveness instead of 6" and unuits must still follow the charge rules to the letter; meaning you can bottleneck a charging force in a hallway or a ladder or what have you.

Most importantly, just come to an agreement with your opponent before you guys setup the board. That way you will have no contentions or misunderstandings and even better if you guys don't like the way something plays, talk after the battle and make changes.

That being said. I've played more games using Ad Mech Sicarians and Ruststalkers. I don't know about the rest of you, but I've been playing narrative due to the Ultramar campaign at my GW store. Effectively spamming whatever the flavor of the week is. This week was focused on elites. So i played every single elite model I had.

List
2 Dominus
10 Vanguard 3 ark rifles, Alpha Maul/ark pistol, omispex
10 vangaurd 3 pslama, Alpha Maul/ark pistol, omispex
10 rangers, omispex
1 squad of Breachers
1 squad of Destroyers
1 5 Infiltrators, goad
1 5 infiltrators, powerswords
1 5 Sicarians, razors/chords
1 5 sicarians duel razors
1 10 electro priests, disco sticks
1 10 electro priests, jazz hands

FYI this list is not to be competitive but created to max out my elites as per instructed for the campaign.

I fought Space marines, Chaos Space Marines and 1ksuns for the three games. Here is a run down on how each unit performed.

Here is what really stood out to my. Infiltrators and Rustsalkers really, kinda just suck. Infiltrators are useful, in the fact they can deepstrike and probably take out lightly armored or undefeded infantry; see IG heavy weapons teams, or Tyranid Gaunts. But otherwise, do not perform well nor survive the second turn of their deepstrike.

Still useful, but I think they are overcosted. Need a points reduction or a slight buff to their survivability.


Sicarians.... Overall, very meh. Borderline useless.
They served as a impeadment to my enemy deepstriking and a deterant from an outright charge, but when placed in combat, didn't do anything in any of the three games.
The transonic razors had a super specific and excellent purpose in 7th (where the units was designed to play in) but was relegated to a strange and meaningless place in 8th. Its worse than the infiltrators and only slightly less points. Whom the infiltrators can deep strike and have ranged attacks. They are significantly worse and less hardy than the electro priests, who outperform them in every way, for fewer points. Electropreists have a 5++/5+++ and can get a 3++/5++ and deal out more attacks and more mortal wounds and have a better overall statline than the sicarians. Who do the same job but better in every way.

The main issue I have with these awesome looking but horrible rules models is their rules. I think the GW team, just kinda "skipped" them. They looked at the model and just said, "I dunno, they can't have powersowrds, as the infiltrators already have that, they can't have huge mortal wound dishing out, electropriests have that, I guess, we will just ignore them and think of something later" And they just never gave them rules.

Electropreists: have and presumably always do well. Each game Jazzhands threw out so many attacks they easily made their points back and became pychological weapons. Once your enemy sees how many shots these mooks throw out, expect them to be focused fired on. They do amazing in units of 10, but 3 small units of 5 might be better simply to avoid focus fire being placed on them due to their threat rating.

Disco sticks. Fantastic. I keep them behind my Battle Servitors. My opponent never goes near them. If he is foolish enought to charge or get into charge range, they liquify whatever they get into melee with.

Vanguard: As always, positioning is key. They rarely make more than their points back, but their tactical flexability and decent firepower always make them worthwhile. Even if they do die super easy.
Rangers: Not been useful, not a fault of the unit but of circumstance, I've been fighting Marines and 1ksuns. Their rilfles are simply not suited towards that opponent.

Destroyers: Grav/phospher Always useful, always deadly, place them in terrain and keep the dominus nearby. They are hardy enough to absorb small arms fire and the dominus can repair them with ease and grant them rerolls to hit. Careful, their 6++ is garbage and a kark missle or Laz cannon or even overcharge plasma will turn these SUPER expensive units into lost points if you don't put them in a bunker or place them behind a VOID SHIELD or Landing Pad.

Breachers: These guys either perform amazingly or terribly in my games. Torsion Cannons always. If you take ark rifles on these, you are wasing points. Heavy ark Rifles are cheap, but they are crap. S6 Ap -2 D3, (D6 against vehicals) is simply not hight enough strength to consitantly pose a real threat to vehicals. Unless you wounds on a 4+ (which you wont be for anything heavier than a land speeder) don't bother. Either take the Heavy grav for the anti infantry and even slight anti tank, or take theTorsion cannons which can (unless you have bad luck like me) and will pop vehicals with realtive ease.
It should be noted, if you do list tailor and you know your opponnet is going to be bring lots of light vehicals; sentinals, land speeders, light walkers and so forth, these things would actually be quite useful.

Breachers with Ark claws. Suprisignly effective. A excellent default weapon. S6 Ap-1 D1/Dd3 towards vehicals.

Breachers with Hydralic Claws. S10 AP-1 Dd3 -1 to hit. Arguably the worse weapon/unit combo in the game. This is EVEN WORSE than regular Servitors with Servo arms. AT LEAST servitors with servo arms are only 12 fething points. Not 85. If this weapon did not -1 to WS, I would say, maybe. But with a -1 to WS and ONLY a -1 AP, I would say this is a typo but after the first Errata came up and this wasn't changed, it was confirmed intentional. Never. Ever. Take this. It costs more than the Ark Claws and is worse. Simply don't.

Dominus has consitantly been synergy useful but otherwise worthless model. Eradiation Ray is not bad, but its D3 shots make it unreliable. If Dominus would come down in points to just 100. I think that would be his sweet spot.

 Aaranis wrote:
Hmm funny, I always thought the Sicarians to be worth it. Infiltrators can just shoot so much they can be useful against light-armoured opponents, and they can still dish out loads of attack with the Goads. The Ruststalkers I've used only a few times since I bought them recently, but I'm really satisfied from them. Twice they were able to counter a 3-man squad of Terminators deep-striking behind me. They put out a lot of attacks and with a little luck, a lot of 6's to Wound for the mortal wounds. Always played them with Razors + Chordclaws.

The Fulgurites are indeed really nice and cheap enough that you're not angry when they die. They finished off a 4 Wounds Deceiver last game on the charge and then became a Gauss-magnet for the whole turn. They died but tanked really good with the 3++ and that's a lot of fire my other flimsy units weren't getting.

I should clarify, as my post does say borderline worthless, I should expand. They and in and of themselves aren't terrible. However, when placed next to infiltrators and elecetropreists who both do their job and more for slightly more (infiltrators) or even fewer points (electropreists), means there is no good reason to take these models over the other two. And woe to the fool who takes two trazsonic blades instead of the chord claw.

If we were given dunestrider back and a change to the tranzsonic blades/razors I'd say theyd be worth taking, but as in, I personally cannot see any reason to take them. Pay 3 pts more per model to get Infiltrators who can be anywhere on the board at any point you please and have good range capability and can specialise in anti swarm or anti armored. Or take electropreists if you want a powerful melee unit to dish out mortal wounds.

Ruststalkers with blades.... Can attack at S6 with no AP for a single turn... If you give them cantiles... And cause a mortal wound on a 6... But Disco sticks are S5 ap-2 Dd3 and cause D3 mortal wounds and are more survivable than rustalkers.... and are cheaper. That is what I mean by theming being boarderline uesless, they are overshadowed in everyway by their sister models the infitrators and their cousins electropreists.

 Aaranis wrote:

 Tsol wrote:
I should clarify, as my post does say borderline worthless, I should expand. They and in and of themselves aren't terrible. However, when placed next to infiltrators and elecetropreists who both do their job and more for slightly more (infiltrators) or even fewer points (electropreists), means there is no good reason to take these models over the other two. And woe to the fool who takes two trazsonic blades instead of the chord claw.

If we were given dunestrider back and a change to the tranzsonic blades/razors I'd say theyd be worth taking, but as in, I personally cannot see any reason to take them. Pay 3 pts more per model to get Infiltrators who can be anywhere on the board at any point you please and have good range capability and can specialise in anti swarm or anti armored. Or take electropreists if you want a powerful melee unit to dish out mortal wounds.

Ruststalkers with blades.... Can attack at S6 with no AP for a single turn... If you give them cantiles... And cause a mortal wound on a 6... But Disco sticks are S5 ap-2 Dd3 and cause D3 mortal wounds and are more survivable than rustalkers.... and are cheaper. That is what I mean by theming being boarderline uesless, they are overshadowed in everyway by their sister models the infitrators and their cousins electropreists.

They're more survivable if they get their 3++, otherwise they're still 1W each while your Ruststalkers have to take two wounds before dying and so you can fail two saves and still have loads of attacks. I've found if you're unlucky in rolling 5+ your five Priests might as well die to Poxwalkers. I agree that they should be taken in squads of 10 for a more optimal use however, that way you still pack some punch despite a few losses, whereas losing 1-2 models in a minimum unit is a serious hit to your offensive abilities.

I like Ruststalkers to defend the backline because they're faster and so can cover distance more easily when I need to save a unit of mine about to get charged, while I keep the Priest hidden in the front to charge through a wall when the opponent is close enough.

Its sad, because I love the models. In 7th I played a 5 man squad of each of the rust stalkers and infiltrators variants just because I thought they were so cool looking. They were overcosted but still good, if a bit squishy. This edition they are realativly cheap, I think its 100pts for five if my memory serves, for the chordclad razor combo. But for 100 points I personaly, would rather more Vanguard, or I'd pay the extra 20 points to just take infiltrators. Though if I wanted a defender unit, I would never take the sicarians over the electropreists. Admittedly this is preference but I'll explain why. For 100 points you get a five man squad of Ruststalkers, T3 4+/6++ 2 wounds. Mildly fast, S4 ap 0, 3 attacks and has an above average chance to cause a few mortal wounds. Or if I spend 160 points I can get 10 Discosticks, T3, 10 wounds, 2 attacks at S5 AP-2 Dd3 and same chance (other than less attacks) to cause mortal wounds. Plus their 5++/5+++ save. I have noticed that many people think a 4+ save is better than a 5++/5+++. It is not, the latter is statistically better and more akin to a 3+ save (being generious with fractions). Plus their added bonus of cauisng mortal wounds on the charge and if they kill an enemy unit in melee get an astonishing 3++/5++. Which honestly wont help you, as your opponent will focus fire the crap out of them until they all die, but hey, everything shooting at them, is not shooting at the rest of your stuff. This is why I cannot see myself ever taking sicarians for competitive reasons, other than, they look cool.

Though as you've said, I too have pretty much only used ruststalkers as a second defensive line, though they have underperformed in each game. This should be noted I most (currently) am playing against Space Marines, Chaos and 1ksuns.

And I agree as well. Despite what many people are saying in this thread, I think taking minimum units is a poor idea for Admech unless your goal is MSU. You need the bodies for the extra firepower to keep your units functional. Admech has lost much of its staying power in this edition. A flat 6++ although nice, is objectivly worse, than the old 6+++


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Buddingsquaw wrote:
I've not given the Electropriests a go yet, partly to do with how fething expensive they are, and the fact I'm still in the mindset of needing to pull off the old 4-Turns of Charging shenanigans you had to in 7th:
In go the Infiltrators, then the Ironstriders, then the Ruststalkers, and then you dare show the Priests and get them stuck in.

Unless you spammed the living daylights out of the blue dudes, I never imagined them getting the job done.
Much to say that I've never even seen them fielded, nor even in Batreps.

Sounds like they're a bit more reliable now, though? Thinking it might be worth taking a few to use as gunline defence, as the rest of you seem to be doing.

I never even considered using them in 7th. They were laughably bad. In this new edition, they've gone up in points, but their abilities easily make up for them. However, they still suffer the same weakness a 5++/5++ is not bad, but also not reliable. Positioning these mooks is key; hiding them behind line of sight, or keeping better targets available to keep fire off them. The good news is, their save is so bad (0) that you never need to worry about putting them in cover, as it will never be better than your 5++. The Jazzhands are tough for the first few times, because ideally, you want a dominus next to them. His rerolls of 1 are best used with these guys (or canticles). since they will be hitting on a 3+ reroll 1s and explode into 2 extra hits on 6s. I always take at least 10 in a squad and when they fire I more often then not, get more hits than I originally rolled. Usually around 36 hits from the 30 shots. This is even more absurd if they are near Cawl. Their high strength of 5 but no AP makes them great at killing anything not a vehicle. As termies will die from sheer dice rolls, and marines or anything lighter cannot possibly pass that many armor saves. It can be difficult to manuver them though, as they will fall to both small arms fire and big arms, though you might be surprised how much they may take with a bit of luck. Harder still once your opponents learn of their firepower, they will be gunning for them, making their deployment and positioning even more important for later games.

Discosticks, don't always do much for me. This is not a fault of their own, but all my regular opponents have fought them and lost to them and now go nowhere near them. They kill marines, guardsmen, and terminators with equal efficiency. They can kill dreadnaughts and Chaos lords with relative ease. However, they are relativly slow and with no transports, you can't rely on running these guys up the board unless your opponent doesn't know what they are capable of, and ignores them. They are thus best used to defend your best shooty stuff from melee harm. An ideal countercharge unit which can kill just about anything, and if it does, suddenly becomes one of the most hard to kill units in the game. Again, I recommend squads of 10 like the Jazzhands, however, these guys can still do well in just 5 man squads.

I only played WarCon against Eldar douche detachments or Necron broken detachments. Anything else, I just ran CAD.

It was definatly top tier, but still not as powerful as the two I listed above, but versus other armies like Tyranids or Orks, it wasn't even fun to play against them.

 Buddingsquaw wrote:
An interesting point my opponent raised today:
For determining Canticles, one can either, for the entire match, pick one, or roll for them.
I always saw it as being able to mix and match picking and rolling.

"At the start of each battle round, [you can pick the canticle]. Alternatively, [you can roll for it]".
-----

On another note: Belisarius with Torsion Breachers with fething ridiculous.

I can understand his misinterpretation. However, recent FAQ and clarified this. You may pick or roll. And do whichever on any turn you please.

So I was literally writing up a 5000 word heavy review of Admech currently to post here and on a couple other forums as well as give 1d4chan my input. As I have played about 45 games of Admech thus far (pure) and about twice that much in 8th overall.

However, all of it is almost moot with these new updates. So I'll give an abridged version as to not have fully wasted my time and maybe this info will help some of you. This info is also for Pure Admech, not soup. And by no means is perfect. I have played alot of 8th and alot of Admech, but I am by no means perfect and my views are subject to local META; which is Chaos, Necrons, 1ksons, Space Marines, Orks and Eldar.

----HQs----
TPD. Overall, as an individual not bad, not great. As a synergy character (by comparision to other armies he is crap) but his relative hardyness and decent melee/shooting makes him okay. If he was a flat 100pts. I'd say he'd be in the sweet spot.

Cawl: exactly what he is. Great. If you have the points, no reason not too. Just be careful about hard hitting stuff. He can shrug off small arms better than most, but like most things, powerfists or Laz cannons will ruin his day.

--**NEW**--
Tech Priest- First impressions (Have not used him as an HQ yet, just found out about this yesterday). I fear he will not get a points reduction simply due to being moved to an HQ slot. However, if he turns out to get a points reduction, and in my humble opinion he should be exactly 40pts and kept as is. With one exception, he should be able to repair all Admech units, not just vehicles, like the Dominus. As many people have figured out, if this HQ is 40pts, or even 50 pts, the entire META of the army will radically change. I am already planning on running two or three forge worlds with a TPD and 1-2 tech priests to split my army up into multiple detachments and have them specialize into roles.

---Troops---
Breacahers:
So close yet so far from being an awesome unit. Cover/canticles makes these guys are to move, but will fall victim to Lazcannon/other heavy hitters making this unit only viable if there is target saturation avaiable. Otherwise, focus fire and heavy weapons will turn this overpriced unit into robot parts. If they knocked these guys down to 150 for Haywire/claw. I'd take 3 squads. Make the Torsion cannons/claw 175 and I might cry from joy, if they made the torsion 20pts and the arc free. I would be even so bold to make their hydralic claw cost the same as the arc. Why? Its objectivly worse, but its high risk and low reward can be offset by its fluff. The Hydralic claw needs AP-2 and it can compete with the arc, if it were free/same cost. As is, I can never recommend it, -1 to hit making its pilthy 2 attacks hit on 5s on such an expensive unit really makes me wonder if it was a typo uncaught. Unless you know you are going to be attacking buildings ignore this weapon. If the codex adjusts it, I'll revisit it. Otherwise, stay away.

--Destroyers---
Expensive, somewhat fragile unit, cover is a MUST on these. These also benefit the most from a TPD, Canticles or Cawl or any other reroll or to hit boon. They are overpriced, but dish out enough firepower to make them worth it, if you place them in a sound tactical manner. Heavy Grav, despite being nerf is still excellent at what it does. Turning all heavy infantry into molten goop. This squad will melt effectively anything that is not a vehical in one volley. Or two if the dice gods are against you. I would love to see a slight price drop in these, just to make them more viable. I'd be happy with the base unit just coming down 5 pts: from 35 to 30 or knocking the Grav cannon to 20-25 instead of 30. Phospher blaster... I don't want to say its crap... So I wont. Take the flamers. Which I think is about right, though my fanboy wants them a solid 10pts not 11.

Plasma: Good. I hardly ever use these though, for two major reasons, I hate the d6 shots; simply too unreliable for such an expensive unit and the Grav is better for my local META. Though Plasma seems to be king this edition, so I will not say anything bad against them. I'd like to see their points cost down to 20, or even 25... But thats me being nit picky. They suffer all the same problems listed above but are just kitted out for different targets. Your mileage may vary.

Cognis Flamers: Good. A bit pricey, but good. They are extra reassurance flame throwers, and as so are good.

Overall, this unit despite its obscene costs (two units of 3 is the costs of an Imperial Knight...) These awesome looking models can actually be viable. Have their Grav target Terminators or power armor or even monstrous creatures and watch it do work.

**NEW** If these units get a points reduction combined with the forgeworld Lucius and canticles. These units may become
some of the hardest hitting and tough aplhastrike or even just teleporting gunplatforms int he game.

Vanguard: become my most common unit, but seriously struggling to keep competitive. Too expensive, both base and weapon upgrades (looking at you plasma calv). They're 4+ save when in cover/canticles makes them not just die to a stiff breeze, but even laz guns will wear these guys down with realtive ease. If GW makes them about 8 pts per model and knocks down the plasma cav to 10-12 pts, these guys will suddenly be really good. Especially with these new forge world traits. That 6+++ FNP thingyish, would do these models wonders. In a perfect forge world, the Aphas would have two wounds.
That being said, these guys throw out a crapton of shots. Have excellent weapon options Arc Rife is wholly underused. For 4pts this is an auto include unless you explicitly want that plasma. A 10 man squad of these mooks, with 3 arc rifles and an omispex or data-tether (depends on their job), are a fansatic little objective holder or harassing unit and a decent screen (if only they were cheaper!!).
Aplha: Kit him out for role.
Maul: Great overall weapon, no weakness only good.
Goad: High strength, No AP. Situational, take this if you know you'll be fighint not space marines or equivelent.
Arc Pistol: Always. Unless you have the Alpha keep his carbine.
Arc Rifle: Arguably best weapon in the faction due to its super duper low points. Take them, S6 AP-1 Rapid Fire 1. Why the heck not!?!?
Plasma: Good... But unintuitive. You want these models to run, says so in the codex, but running and shooting this weapon on overcharge is a big no no. This weapon needs a buff or point reduction. Give it 3 shots and keep the point cost or drop the points. As of right now, its not bad, but its arguably the least point efficient plasma gun in the game currently. Which is super odd, considering this is the mechanicus...
Sniper: Don't.

Despite what many people say, these guys often perform better in groups of 10.

Rangers, outside of being a extra wounds for snipers are possibly the worst unit in the codex. Yes, even worse than the combat servitors. In and of themselves they are not bad but simply not worth their points. As above, 8pts ideally with some sort of buff; like all to wound rolls of 6 are AP-2 would go along way to making these guys compete with Vanguard, who are the same cost, have some defensive uses (rad armor) and nearly triple the firepower.
Alpha: Keep stock rife.
Snipers: Use this unit as extra wounds for said snipers. Just a minor add tid bit. A 10 man unit with 3 snipers, can either do wonders or will attract far too much attention. I've seen it do both.
Arc Rifles: Actually has pretty good snyergy here, though I still recommend these with Vanguard over Rangers, but I think this may be the best weapon for this unit.
Plasma: situational, if you know you'll be close within first or second turn, this may not be a bad choice. Though I'd recommend Arc rifles over these.
Rangers, in my opinion, have taken the worst brunt in the codex out of our whole line. They went from an excellent troop choice to sniper bodies. They can still perform however, rerolls of 1 to hit and a soft rend make them annoying to your opponents due to their long range. Ideally, two five man squads with a sniper or two plopped into a good tactical position can really help your army. A 10 man squad with 3 arc rifles in center field or camping on an objective can also be very useful. But that is about all they can do well, other units will fill any other rolls they might take better.

---Elites---
DiscoSticks: Most improved. Arugably one of the best counter charge units in the game currently. Many people forget they have a 5+++ which makes them almost as hardy as Nurgle deamons. When position cleverly, they will completly deter your opponents from would be great charge or deepstrike. Or not as good but still tactically useful, your opponents will be sure to focus fire these guys to death to allow them to deepstrike or charge. I will skip out on in detail explaining why they are so good, but their statline alone should give you all the reasons you need. Point wise, I think they are spot on. Any cheaper and they'd be broken. Any more expensive and I'm not sure if I'd take more than one squad.

Always take at least 10. 5 would be good, but they will be shot.

Jazz Hands: Great. Thought Vanguard are too squish and don't like their stregth 3? Well these are for you. Have all the same rules and boons as Disco sticks but can drown ANY unit in firepower. Give them a rerolls to hit with Cawl and laugh as you dish out 50 hits from a 10 man squad. TPD and/or canticles help these mooks out nicely. Their short range is their only weak point. Position them to either defend a unit/area or go super aggresive with them and give your enemy target saturation to avoid them being focus fired on.
Point wise, again, I think they are perfect. Always take at least 10, more may be better but situational and will draw more fire if you take more than 10.

These guys move well with Vanguard running up the field.

Servitors: Dont. They could have been great. Even at 8pts a model (servo arm) these things could have been useful. But at 12 pts... Just put the points elsewhere. Hopfully the codex will do 1 of two things. 1: Make them 8 pts with servo arm, then they could be useful. 2: change the equipment they can take and its restrictions.

**NEW** with teleportation, these mooks with Multimeltas plus a techpriest in conjunction with a point reduction can finally give us that deep strike melta attack we've been needing that every other army has.

Datasmith: Exactly what he is. Okay at combat but just a powerful baby sitter for your robots. I'd like to see him maybe just 10 points cheaper and be able to work with servitors and I'd think he could be really useful. Even more so, if he could repair other units. I'd happily keep his point costs the same if he could repair any admech units.

Infiltrators: Good. Used to be our only deepstrike, still good. Almost spot on in points. I'd prefer a soft point reduction or a slight bump in survivability. A 5++ would go a long way for these guys (what they used to have). Both options are good, simply kit them out for whatever task you want to them to handle.
Goads: good for light armored but still competent at exploding hits and overwhelming high armor.
Swords: Powerswords. Yes please.

Both variants do very well with canticles,primarily due to their all around good nature, their high output of attacks both melee and range allow for lots of dice and potential damage. +1 Strength makes you wound T3 models on 2s with goads and makes your power swords wound marines on 3s. Rerolls of 1 to range/melee just good to have.

These are a must have strategically, however with new codex and teleportation, they may lose their most important feature: deepstrike. I mean, you take them for deepstrike, if you have other options, you may not want to take these anymore. Overall, I will contradict myself here a bit. They are worth taking. If you can get the charge off or need something to take a backfield objective, they are decent glass cannons and are fairly quick and can handle most enemy types that are MC or Vehicles.

Ruststalkers: Don't. I have tried. I really have, have used both variants about a dozen times and only twice have they ever done anything useful. You will amost always be better served by infiltrators. The transonic razor and blade are sadly just garbage. The chordclaw is really the only thing that ever did anything when I used them. That being said, you're better off taking Discosticks for mortal wounds and counter charging and your better off with infiltrators at regualr damage dealing and mobility. This is, in my opinion, the most confusing and pointless unit in the codex. Mind you I say pointless, not bad. Just take something else. Hopefully the Codex will change the Transonic blades as currently they are the worst weapon in the codex.

The damn things don't even have an AP of 1!!!

I am super bitter about them because I love their models. I have 20 of them... 10 of each. Got them in 7th and am just sad to see how poor they have become...

---Fast Attack:---
I have nothing of importance to add here. I never use the walkers. I only own 1 of them, and it gets blown up first turn every time. I suspect 2 or 3 of them would fair better. The reason I do not have any is fiscal more than anything else.

--Heavy Support--

Dunecrawler: Excellent unit. Appropriatly costed. Hard hitting and can take ah it. An improved or comperable Leman Russ albeit not as fast.
All weapons on this thing are pretty worthwhile except the phosher blaster. The platform is too costly to justify that weapon being on it. If it were free or only like 5pts for the Dunecrawler, I'd change my mind. The stars here though Nuetraon Laser and Icarus array. Both excellent and both good at really everything. This thing is an embarresment of riches. I recommend taking 3 of any varation of your choice. The Cognis heavy stubbor is over costed though, but it is nice to have 3-6 extra shots comining off the thing.

Robits: Good. But expensive. Overall a strong unit in both melee and range based on what you kit it out with. Obviously range is its most popular form, but they also do very well in melee. Their fists are not to be ignored.

Ageis: My personal favorite mode. 2+/4++ and the retaliation of 5++. This mode may lack the Dakka or the Choppa of the other two, but my opponets best weapons to kill these things (Lazcannons) don't bother shooting them if I have this up. Meaning, they can just do whatever they want with near impunity. Keep a datamsith nearby though, you will probably want to change these things protocal at some point. Also, few things will annoy your opponent more than seeing on of these jerkwagons recover d3 wounds.

There ya go. My last several month of 40 some games as Admech. This was much longer originally and in a proper essay format for ease of reading, but with the new info of the codex out, I shortened it up. Everything I've said is now subject to change.

Spera wrote:
How we will roll canticles with two detachments from different Forge worlds? Would i roll once for each world? Or do I roll only once, and mars double chanting spreads on other worlds?

I was originally hopefully they would just have one for the whole army, re-guardless of detachments, but then I realised, you just bring Cawl with Mar and then everything else gets the boons. I assume it will be just like chapter tactics: each detachment is independent. This will probably create some paperwork.

 ross-128 wrote:
TBH servitors would be great if we could put heavy bolters on the whole squad instead of just half of them. The big thing that hurts them is half the squad is stuck paying for what are basically powerfists, when they don't have the stats to make good use of them. And powerfists ain't cheap.

I think (and hope) they intend to do this, as it would buff their sales considerably. I know I'd buy at least a 4 man squad.

Anyone else see that Breeachers got an extra attack and a cost reduction!?

I have 9 of the bastards, and I can finally use them to punch stuff! Reroll 1s to hit and give them Heavy Ark Rifles, I fully intend to teleport these mooks near the enemy and teleport my TPD along with them for a hard hitting (though super expensive) mini tank colum. I'll probably support them with 10 or 15 Infiltrators as well.

So without the codex on hand, here is what I am thinking for my next list. Note, this is not a tourny list. This is a fun/casual game list.

Stygies Detachemtn
----------------------
1 TPD
1 Engineseer
4 rangers 5 man each, sniper in each
3 Onagar dunecrawlers, 2 neutron beams 1 Icarrus array all stubbors
Goal of this is 4 squads to hold objectives and or screen and if lucky they can snipe somthing as to not make them wholly useless if no targets are close. TPD and Enginseer, will babysit the Dunecrawlers and grant them a reroll.

Lucius Detachment
-------------------------
1 TPD
1 Enginseer
3 squads of Battle servitors*
1 lazcannon chicken

Goal of this force is a good old teleport a problem in your face. I'd teleport all but the enginseer towards something that needed to die, or place a firebase somewhere. Chicken was added to give the priest something to do.
*depending on my mood either 2 squads of destroyers and a squad of breachers or the other way around. Probably heavy grav as I like the five shots each and give them flamers, in case they need to go in hot.

This whole list is about 1700pts, leaving about 300. Which could either be used for adding chickens dragoon or laz chickens in the stygies for extra firepower/counter. Or what I think I will do, make 300pts worth of infiltrators and just have them cause havok.

Thoughts, opinions?

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Well if it is a fun casual list, you should not be getting help from this forum. As we will tell you the most optimal thing to do and you'll just crush everyone

Haha, sorry I didn't clarify. I'm not looking for help. This is just a funzies thing and am curious to what others think or would go with instead.

Wulfey wrote:

 Tsol wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Well if it is a fun casual list, you should not be getting help from this forum. As we will tell you the most optimal thing to do and you'll just crush everyone

Haha, sorry I didn't clarify. I'm not looking for help. This is just a funzies thing and am curious to what others think or would go with instead.

I say run the Dunestriders as Mars in the main Mars detachment and run them as 1 unit. If they are all 1, then when you use the +2 to hit canticle you get the most out of it. They are less durable as Mars, but their damage as a single unit will be vastly higher per CP spent.

Sadly I only own 1 Dragoon and one Lazcannon chicken (though I could proxy). I am very keen on that strategem though. I think I will have to try that though, I'll make a second more chicken heavy list to see how they play out. I'm still very inexperienced for any of the chickens. I love the way they look but they are so real-world expensive, I haven't gotten many.

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
This may sounds contentious, but I want to explore some use of Rangers + Arc Rifle. It's not great, but for 4 points a Str 6, AP -1 and D3 damage on vehicle, on a 40pt squad - that ain't bad at all.

Either with Styges as a way to help soften transports as they hurtle towards your screens, or with Lucius as something to DS in and put some pressure on light armour if needs be. Hell, they're something effective against MEQ infantry, so you can feel you're getting some mileage out of them aside from being a unit of martyrs...

You are not wrong on the rangers and Arc Rifle. The Ark rifle is an awesome weapon. Its just garbage at hurting vehicles. Use it on medium and light infantry. If I don't run my rangers with snipers, I always give them arcs.


That being said, I keep seeing this all over the place that conscripts are borken. And I don't know why; there are four Imperial soup lists and two IG players other than myself who play in our local casual and in our competitive local tournies. And in no game have they ever seemed broken. Its not their base stat as a sometimes Ork player and often Nid player, (I use grots and guants as my screens) their costs are about what they should be, and their moral is not the issue as Orks and Nids have better moral handling (nids being wholly fearless). So I assume it must be the orders of FRFSRF, but even then in the games I see and play in, their Crap BS is not particularly useful. Just useful enough to cause damage to some models due to sheer volly fire. Which is what they are supposed to do.

The most difficult thing I can imagine for conscritps is a full blob, with 2 priests, 2 commisars, 2 officers and 2 psykers giving them buffs. But with that much investment, they are by no means cheap... I say two as Guard characters are laughably easy to kill; I fight and play as Guard and they are easy targets to snipers.

Can someone give me a credible and clear reason why they think conscripts are the most over powered unit in the game? I see gaunts to be much better in just about every way but I never hear people complaining my gaunts are OP when I bring 120 of them on the table. (Yes I do have quite a bit of them.... I was a 3rd edition swarmer and never gave it up over the years).

Bought myself another Dragoon today and played two games. I don't have the new codex rules yet and didn't play any of the leaked/shown codex changes.

Dragoons, don't often kill things due to their lack of AP (soon to change) but they tie up enemy rifles squads really well. I still intend to keep my Vanguard as my rifle squads and screens, but am more open to using them help screen my force. But the way I ended up playing them is both distracfex and aggressive.

They moved on both my flanks as my TPD and three breachers and three Destroyers foot/tread slogged up the table throwing torsion cannons and grav at anything which looked at me funny. Vanguard walked slightly ahead and a few times advanced and shot at penality to pepper targets of oppertunity or jump on an objective. This was also the first time I have used my dunecrawlers as mobile gun support. One Nuetron and one Iccaris. The +1 LD boost is invaluable and reroll to both the Skitarri and the Kataphratons as I never had to really worry about moral.

I think I will consistently take about 2-4 dragoons (need to buy two more; as I proxied two). Their mobility and -1 to be shot is/was super handy.

As a side note, anyone think twin Lazcannons are worth any points on my chicken walkers? I magnetized them so I can switch between which one I want to use, but their relatively high costs and fragility have me not wanting to take them and just pay the extra points to get another dunecrawler instead.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

Msolve wrote:
On the frontline stream today Reese said he and Frankie prefer the fist Kastelans to the shooty ones. Any opinions on why?

He's wrong. That's it. Phosphor won a GT. Punchy ones are nowhere to be seen. Coincidence?

Also all they got from the codex is insta switch to punch twice, while Phosphor got: insta switch, mars stratagem, kataphron+kastelan stratagem.

The range ones indeed outperform overall when they go into double shooty, but as someone who almost always plays robots with fists and flamers, I can tell you they are mean SOBs in melee. They are effectivly one of the best CC melee robots/walkers in the game. Excellent save, invul save, can be repaired and can double attacks. That S10 AP-3 D3 hitting on 4 (maybe rerolls based on canticles or double the attacks based on protocals) make them better than most others of their type and even cheaper.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
The last time I played them I got charged by Genestealers + broodlord (they're faster so that'll usually happen)and fistellans died before doing anything.

Meanwhile, every time I've used DakKastelans, I thought "I'm so sad I can't bring more as I have to protect them all"

I can agree here. Don't ever try o melee genestealers, just shoot and run away....


I may own about 40 genestealers....

So... Not trying to flame anyone in particular but I think I'm going to start a separate Admech thread for those who are interested in talking about the army and tactics and new codex coming out tomorrow for those who aren't hardcore tourney listers but more for the average player who wants a decent army but also wants to try and keep it fluffy and friendly.

I mean no insult by this but this thread's tone and advice no longer suits' me.