Tactica Mechanicus 2.0 - ++DEPRECATED++

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**Suzuteo**

Bit late to the leak party due to a business trip. Lots of cool stuff!

I am super glad that Skitarii and CM are now one, big happy <Forge World> family; sad that the Knights got left out, but I guess that's fair. Oh, except Cawl. But it's okay, we can all just say that we're from Mars. >_>

Ironstriders got a bit slower (relative to everyone else in 7th), but they seem to hit a lot harder and take more hits as well. TL Lascannon Ballistarii seem to be the ideal setup for tank hunters. And Taser Dragoons seem to be Primaris killers; though if I understand this correctly, it increases HITS to 3, so we're talking 6 damage here? The Jezzail Dragoons also seem okay for sniping characters, but they don't seem to be as crazy in this edition.

Crawlers are terrifying. Given how many things I have seen that Fly, Icarus Array might just be the default choice.

I am currently thinking Outrider Detachment with numerous small units of Dragoons, say 4 units of 2 or 3 units of 3. How worried should I be about friendly Explode? (Because I definitely think the opponent would worry.)

EDIT: Does anyone have a working spreadsheet? I just realized that it would probably be a bit easier than going through this by hand.

**Suzuteo**

rvd1ofakind wrote:

It's in the first post, dude
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0By4SQd_H1eW8S2U4Qnl3dWpqU0E

It wasn't working before. Does now. Thanks.

**Suzuteo**

I guess the burning questions I have after reading all these battle reports concern the Heavy Support slots. They seem to be our strongest slot by far, so we may just want to build lists around them as a core, with the requirements of your detachment intended to maximize the strengths or minimize the weaknesses of each slot.

So some brainstorming questions:

Are Neutron Crawler, Icarus Crawler, and Phosphor Kastelan Robots the strongest general performers in the Heavy Support slot?
What area do these models excel in?
To what extent can a Knight Crusader substitute for these units?
What critical weaknesses need to be shored up, and what units shore these weaknesses up the most?
If we had only 2 slots or even only 3 slots, which would be taken?

**Suzuteo**

Right. I think that seems to be how Heavy Support is shaping up.

I am thinking of going with the Battalion detachment and its 3 Heavy Support slots, and a mix of one unit of 2-4 Kastelan Robots (with a Datasmith) and two Icarus Crawlers would form the core, supplemented by a Knight Crusader with RFBC/AGC.

On that note, how do we feel about the Thermal Cannon? Seems like it has a strict use case now. Knight Errants actually seem more appealing than Paladins and Wardens if you want something with a giant chainsword.

I am actually thinking minimum Vanguard units with Arc Rifles and Dragoons to accomplish objective holding and screening. Fulgurite Electro-Priests, although they are improved, are too slow to fulfill any role that the Vanguard or even Infiltrators don't handle already. At best, they are a supplement to the former.

**Suzuteo**

So I am thinking about something like this:

Battalion Detachment - 1447

HQ - 385
1x Belisarius Cawl
1x Tech-Priest Dominus - Volkite Blaster, Macrostubber

Troops - 174
5x Skitarii Vanguard - 2x Arc Rifle
5x Skitarii Vanguard - 2x Arc Rifle
5x Skitarii Vanguard - 2x Arc Rifle

Fast Attack - 408
2x Sydonian Dragoon - 2x Taser Lance
2x Sydonian Dragoon - 2x Taser Lance
2x Sydonian Dragoon - 2x Taser Lance

Heavy Support - 480
1x Onager Dunecrawler - 1x Icarus Array
1x Onager Dunecrawler - 1x Icarus Array
2x Kastelan Robots - 2x Heavy Phosphor Blasters, 2x Twin Heavy Phosphor Blasters

Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 540

Lord of War - 540
Knight Crusader - 1x Rapid-fire Battle Cannon and Heavy Stubber

Total: 1987 points
6 Command

We have the self-healing, infantry-chewing Cawl + TDP + 2x Kastelan unit that everyone has been raving about. Arc Rifle Vanguard units screen the core, and Icarus Dunecrawlers lock mobile flying elements such as battlesuits and jetbikes out. Three small units of Sydonian Dragoons act as objective grabbers and complement the rest of the force as an assault component; super disappointed that we don't get 14" move of bikes though. Finally, a Knight Crusader to control a large swath of the board; he does a bit of everything.

Feedback? Remember, I have 13 points to spare. Haha.

**Suzuteo**

My Crusader uses the Rapid-fire Battle Cannon and Heavy Stubber. I hope that his points make up for a missing Neutron Crawler and Phosphor Kastelan.

I really do think that Vanguard and Dragoons have a stronger role to play in this 8th edition than the last one. As stated in the OP, we're an artillery army now, and that means you need mobile skirmishers, deterrents to CC, and something to occupy the ground that your artillery is controlling.

**Suzuteo**

rvd1ofakind wrote:

They might have a stronger role but they've been nerfed in general.
We really have to see how it goes with Maelstrom. I have a feeling that we might have to run 2 squads of infiltrators or some allies.

also RBC is overpriced, IMO.

I don't think Dragoons were nerfed. They got buffed and received a corresponding points increase.

I mean, here's what I see:
+Now always gets the +3 Strength bonus that you used to only get from charging
+Got T6 and W6, which is amazing relative to AV11 and W2
+Incense got buffed; now stops Overwatch and screws with rerolls (Question: Does Incense stop something like taser as well?)
=Still lacks AP, but still hits like a truck (three S8 D2 attacks that triple on a 6!)
-Got slower relative to bikes; bikes were 33% faster, now they're 40% faster
-Got more expensive relative to tournament standard; we now use 8.1% more points, but Dragoons cost 51% more

But again, the important thing is that we are an artillery army, and we need something that can quickly move around the map to secure objectives and to create distance for our artillery to operate.

I agree that RFBC is overpriced now, especially since the Crusader will not benefit from Canticles. However, I don't think Thermal Cannon is as good a fit unless you have a chainsword.

**Suzuteo**

rvd1ofakind wrote:

Doesn't stop overwatch. It's a fixed "hit on 6" thing that only gets altered by rules that have the word "OVERWATCH" in them. Confirmed by testers.
They are also slower in terms of running and charging too.
Like I said, the most annoying thing is that the weapon is really weird. It's good against mutli-wound invul saves and multi-wound no saves. Which are few and far in-between. And even if the opponent has some, he'll make it a PITA for your dragoons to actually charge them.
And I still use them. But I doubt they're "core". But time will tell...

Thermal and Rapidfire comparison

The fact that it has some positioning shananigans you can do where it hits harder in some situations (would you really fire that at IG troops?) makes Thermal better IMO. Obviously I'd take Rapid if it was the same price

Bummer on the Overwatch.

I don't follow. Dragoons always had 0 AP, and if anything, they have even more targets now than in 7th, given there are now Primaris Space Marines in addition to MC, light transports, MEQs, and walkers running around. After all, its damage comes from the sheer volume of high strength attacks. Really, what I am surprised by is how they gave us 2 damage attacks at all; they could have given us 1 damage attacks with the old cost (now 54 due to Taser Lances costing 9), which is much worse in the high-Wound environment we are in.

If your opponent is hiding their high-Wound units from your Dragoons, then they won't be in CC with your artillery, which will be pounding the tar out of everything else. Mission accomplished.

Mm... looking at those results, I am going to have to echo the other comments. Given you are already spending 320 points on the body, you need to give it the tools necessary to succeed. Alternatively, you can build a Warden or Errant...

**Suzuteo**

em_en_oh_pee wrote:
I think list context might matter on the RFBC vs Thermal option. The Avenger already tosses a fair amount of shots against infantry and so do our Robots. Anti-tank in my list is limited to the Neutron, so having another reliable means of busting armor might be worth it (meta depending).

This. Crusader might just be additional artillery ontop of our already excellent artillery. Indeed, we may well be stuck in old thinking. Crusader was king in WarCon lists because it benefited from Canticles and free upgrades. However, outside of WarCon, Errant was just as common due to the D on the chainsword.

Besides this, I wonder if we really need a Knight at all. Kastelans seem to outperform in the anti-horde role and Crawlers in the anti-tank role.

**Suzuteo**

rvd1ofakind wrote:

On topic of "do we need a knight". The problem is that we either go knight or:
run out of heavy support spaces
have to run kastelans in squads of6
have to lose CP in one way or the other

Yeah, I am thinking the only reason why we would run a Knight is to avoid paying the Dominus tax to bring in an Outrider or Spearhead Detachment.

str00dles1 wrote:Had a hand full of 2k games and even a 3k game this weekend.

My thoughts and comments from the games:

Vanguards are just better. No reason to use Rangers. I use them to bubble wrap the kastallens and give -1T for that needed melee if charged.

Priests, both types suck. They are cheap, but over all useless. they need to kill a unit first to be good, which they are usually killed first.

My second box of destoryers is never getting built, a waste of time painting the first box! Useless

Til a codex comes out, Cawl is a auto take

Fr 2k, min robots id run is 2 units of 2. they are quite overpowered. Easily see them getting more expensive in the coming times.

Laser Walkers and anti air walkers are also close to a auto include, both are amazing.

TPD is a requirement, whish I could take a cheaper HQ, but he baby sits the tanks.

Chickenwalkers are not bad, used twin las and did alright. Its cheap, but if it gets shot by anything big its doomed.

I use knight with gatling, stubbers and RFBC. RFBC is better all around, though expensive. If I know I'm playing someone who brings lots of vehicles ill switch it out but so far its a all star.

Overall, its fun to roll a bucket load of dice, but it gets pretty boring fast. Just not a lot of options right now so lists will pretty much be the same every time.

Also if you don't go first that can be really bad. You want lesser number of units. You got to bubble wrap the robots and tanks with a line of vanguard. Second they deep strike in and lock you up its game over.

Admech is pretty much a one robot-spam tick pony at the moment

also, cantilces how I read it is you get to pick, but never use again OR you roll for the whole game. One or the other. I don't play to cheese out bad GW wording or my opponent (the robots are bad enough) with TPD, this really isn't a issue unless you roll a 1 on the table, otherwise you can give yourself cover every turn.

I aim for two layers of defense. The outer layer being Dragoons and the inner layer being bubble-wrap Vanguards.

Sad to hear that about the Destroyers.

If you recommend two units of 2x Kastelans, it means we only get one Crawler in a Battalion. So Icarus or Neutron? My plan so far is to run a Crusader in lieu of my second unit of Kastelans, and go with double Icarus or Icarus + Neutron. However, I might be overestimating the flyer threat and underestimating the tank threat.

**Suzuteo**

Qarp wrote:
Hi,

I have been wondering why all the focus of using only one detachment, and have the following questions:
1. Do command points from different or multiple detachments stack?
2. Adeptus Mechnicus "If you have a battle-forged army units only receive the bonus if every model in their detachment has this ability". What happens if you have two adeptus mechanicus detachments, where all models in the detachment have the canticle ability? Do you do canticle once pr detachment or once that applies to both? Also do canticles apply to the 2nd detachment?

I think it really needs to be reiterated that 8th edition is essentially penalizing a lot of armies for taking additional detachments by requiring you to pay an HQ tax. You also lose out on the bonus CP that you would get if you were to upgrade that Battalion into a Brigade like so:

Brigade Detachment

HQ - 620
1x Belisarius Cawl
1x Tech-Priest Dominus - Volkite Blaster, Macrostubber
1x Tech-Priest Dominus - Volkite Blaster, Macrostubber

Troops - 300
5x Skitarii Vanguard
5x Skitarii Vanguard
5x Skitarii Vanguard
5x Skitarii Vanguard
5x Skitarii Vanguard
5x Skitarii Vanguard

Elites - 156
1x Cybernetica Datasmith - 1x Gamma Pistol, 1x Power Fist
1x Cybernetica Datasmith - 1x Gamma Pistol, 1x Power Fist
1x Cybernetica Datasmith - 1x Gamma Pistol, 1x Power Fist

Fast Attack - 204
1x Sydonian Dragoon - 1x Taser Lance
1x Sydonian Dragoon - 1x Taser Lance
1x Sydonian Dragoon - 1x Taser Lance

Heavy Support - 705
1x Onager Dunecrawler - 1x Icarus Array
1x Onager Dunecrawler - 1x Neutron Laser, 1x Cognis Heavy Stubber
2x Kastelan Robots - 2x Heavy Phosphor Blasters, 2x Twin Heavy Phosphor Blasters
2x Kastelan Robots - 2x Heavy Phosphor Blasters, 2x Twin Heavy Phosphor Blasters

1985 points
12 CP

**Suzuteo**

The new Arc Rifles are... accurately priced. They are marginally better than Rad Carbines from a points perspective; you get 6 inches of range and comparable performance against non-vehicles and higher range and points efficiency against vehicles. Would be better if they gave us 1 Mortal Wound or something. Overcharged Plasma looks great though.

Which reminds me. Is it really settled that Grav Destroyers are better than Plasma Destroyers? I feel like Overcharged Plasma is severely underrated in Mathhammer terms right now, especially since when evaluated in a vacuum.

**Suzuteo**

str00dles1 wrote:
Destroyers are terrible so doesent matter what one is better at the moment. When they drop a good 100 points then I'll consider them.

Really? We're at the beginning of a new edition. Let's not dismiss something as good or terrible out of hand and explore possible use cases. I mean, 100 points for a minimum unit of 3 would really put them over the top given what they currently can do.

Now, from what I gather, Destroyers have these standout characteristics:
1) Very fragile (210 points for 3x3 wounds at T5 and 4+/6++), poor 7" average mobility
2) Fills a troop slot, but carries artillery weapons (Heavy w/o penalty and 36" range)
3) OC Plasma is VERY good for heavier-than-middle targets. Destroyers are more point efficient than Crawlers and Kastellans against anything heavier than an MEQ and lighter than a Land Raider.

I mean, seriously guys, do the Mathhammer. OC Plasma is CRAZY with a reroll. Seems like Destroyers will compete with (or complement) OC Plasma Vanguard (which has half the range) as a glass cannon. I wonder if you could put it in a fortification or behind a screen of Kastelans. Thoughts?

**Suzuteo**

str00dles1 wrote:
Ive played them in in 5 games, others have played them, the general thoughts are posted on the first page. They are terrible. Kastallens are just better. Mathhammers already been done. OC plasma is also bad like all plasma. Even with a reroll, all it takes is a 1 and its dead.

Really? Early reports on the other forums say they're okay--though they are glassy. Everyone agrees the Kastelans and Crawlers are better, but Destroyers aren't competing with them. They are Troops.

Point-for-point, a Vanguard with an OC Plasma Caliver is currently most efficient model in AdMech. With a guaranteed re-roll from our HQ, there's only a tiny 2.78% chance that they will actually Gets Hot. We should not dismiss it out of hand.

**Suzuteo**

Aaranis wrote:
I'll be building a max squad with two Plasma Calivers to escort my Dominus. Having the ability to deal 2 Damage is huge now, especially since Vanguards can do that too. They're really good against Primaris Marines for that reason, and Plasma negates their save in the open.

Yes, and it's so damn consistent. With a reroll, OC Plasma Calivers deal 1.73 wounds per turn against MCs, Bikes, Dreadnoughts, and Terminators, and 2.16 against Primaris.

My only question is whether we want to run 2 in a minimum squad or do one each like in 7th edition non-WarCon.

rvd1ofakind wrote:
They aren't competing with them? Them being troops means nothing. They are in the same role as Kastelans, Onagers, Balistarii and Knight Crusaders - backfield artilery. And guess what - they are worse than all of them. So you spend all your points on the 4 I've mentioned, and you have like 800 pts left. Cawl, Dominus. 500 pts left. Are you seriously telling me you're going to spend MORE points on backfield artilery? No. You have to get troops that are actually good at protecting the back field or you will get charged turn 1/2 and lose.

Friend, nothing you said is technically wrong, but I don't think your attitude is helpful. I'm not cheerleading Destroyers or making some binding pronouncement about them; I don't even own any--all of my models are currently Skitarii. But at this point, inquiry is important. It's way too premature from just a handful of games each to declare something settled and dismiss all possible use cases.

On to your points. Yes, I said that assuming Heavy Support slot scarcity. Yes, they do compete on points. But if you're going to make that argument, Ironstriders and Crusaders have no role in our armies either. Indeed, we ought to run nothing but Kastelans and Crawlers in a Brigade detachment for maximum CP and Heavy Slots, fulfilling reqs. with the cheapest possible units: Datasmith, Dragoons, and Vanguard. (And that may well be the competitive build.)

Now, in terms of wounds per point, OC Plasma Destroyers with rerolls are more point efficient than Neutron Crawlers and Phosphor Kastelans against midweight targets; much more so within 24". They can also benefit from cover and fortification normally reserved for Troops and shoot up to 3 targets. Can we discuss this constructively?

**Suzuteo**

str00dles1 wrote:
Its your money, so buy what models you want, but theory crafting with math is very different then seeing them disappoint you in person. You don't own the models, so go ahead and buy them. They are bad.There are tourneys already happening in the area in a week or two, and no admech player is brining Destroyers. OC plasma is not good. Roll to many shots and youll loose models. Don't roil enough and they don't do any damage.

Spending 220 points on a unit to maybe do well for a single turn, then die and become vastly more terrible is not worth it. We are telling you not to waste your time with them.

Wow. Seriously, what's with the attitude? You won't even entertain the idea of doubling or more the damage output of a unit in exchange for only a 1/36 chance to die? I don't see anyone talking like this at all in the Space Marines threads or at the FLGS.

rvd1ofakind wrote:
You can't compare things to OC plasma. Especially when they fire THAT many shots.
If you get a crap roll - you can easily re-roll into 1s. That happens quite often.
If you're trying to be careful - just re-roll 1s, you just won't do enough damage.

And Crusader plays a huge roll in the army. Have you tried him? He's insane. TOs are thinking about banning Knight armies, for example and speculators expect them to be the new Eldar of 8th but not as opressive. Also balistarii are devastating with lsacannons if they get a good shot off.

I don't see why we can't compare things to OC Plasma. It's not as if we're the only ones with them.

Yes, I know. My point wouldn't make sense if Crusaders and Ballistarii weren't good, and if you saw my list a few pages back, it has a Crusader in it. This is because a Crusader clearly offers a distinct advantage over Kastelans and Crawlers in areas such as range, durability, and assault. But if everything is competing purely in one dimension and being compared in points, they would never make it into an army because we're too busy stuffing it to the gills with the most efficient long-range dakka that we have in the largest slot detachment we can find.

**Suzuteo**

bortass wrote:
Our faction focus went up today, a bit late and useless except for confirmation on one thing. An effect that triggers on a 6+ will trigger on a roll of 5 or 6, if there is a +1 modifier. It's in the section on electropriests of the article.

Now back to your regularly scheduled posts arguing about Destroyers and OC plasma, lol

Yeah... our Faction Focus feels really perfunctory. Good to know that bit though.

At this point, I am more interested in arguing about how rigid the thinking is in this thread. I have never spoken to any competitive player of anything that relies on conventional knowledge and what "everyone knows/says." One example I recall from last year was that people were dismissive of multiple Knights and any Knight that was not a Crusader in a WarCon list until some guy placed in LVO with one featuring two Wardens.

Anyhow, I'll stop talking about Destroyers, but I want to encourage people to keep a plastic mind, especially this early on.

**Suzuteo**

Gitsplitta wrote:
I need help guys, if you would. Been fiddling with the cool excel spreadsheet for army building and such and am having a hard time sorting something out...

What is the cost and configuration of the Knight Crusader?

Just give me a quick example including the two main guns that you think would be useful.

Thanks!

Basically, you have the base model and its weapons. Note that many of the weapons come with other weapons attached, so to speak.

Crusader = 320
Titanic Feet = 0
Heavy Stubber = 4
Avenger Gatling Cannon = 95
Heavy Flamer = 17
Rapid-fire Battle Cannon = 100
Heavy Stubber = 4

= 540

**Suzuteo**

Kandela wrote:
I have a quick question - I skimmed through the thread and found no answer:
Is there anything that stops me from getting 3 units of Kastelans, 2 Dominus and 2 gigantic blobs of Electro-Priests as a Spearhed Detachment?
The point is - Kastelans could rain death in relative safety of being behind a blob of Priests (who would serve as a buffer for anything wanting to get close) with Dominus as additional fire support and repair shenanigans.

How big of a dick I would be for running that kind of list?

No, but I am not sure if that is as invincible a combo as you'd think. Electro-Priests would be able to stop your Kataphrons from being Assaulted, but this won't stop the other big threat of mobile shooting units, other artillery, or the general problem of not having enough mobility to control the objectives that your artillery is in range of but not physically present at. This is why Vanguard, Dragoons, and Icarus Crawlers still compete for points.

Also, you're out of luck if they have heavy units or equivalent artillery with longer range. Kataphrons kill an amazing range of enemies by sheer volume of shots, but there are still some things that a Neutron Crawler is better suited for.

**Suzuteo**

PyrhusOfEpirus wrote:
You need thicker skin or dont post here. I thought nothing you quoted either time you called this guy out for his attitude was out of line

First, I was not personally offended. I just thought it was a very non-productive attitude to just definitively say "this is bad" or "this is a waste of money," especially when other groups are taking a totally different tack.

Second, this is exactly the sort of post nobody needs to see on a forum. It doesn't help anyone; it just makes people feel less welcome or free to speak.

gally912 wrote:
Well, as a side note in this Destroyer discussion, I used them today against orks!

I needed them to pull vehicle duty, because he was barreling down with Battlewagons, meganobz, and stormboys.

Of the three I brought, 2 of them died to overheating, on different turns.

However! They put about 12 wounds on a Battlewagon to bring it down, followed by another ~9 on the MANz squad the following turn.

As the codex originally said, I had no problem spending the lives of these servitors. To shut down one of his assaulting unit's threat range transport, and then gutting a second assaulting unit the next turn? They more than made their points worth.

This game, anyways.

I think you're using them as intended. I honestly don't think Gets Hot is a dealbreaker. I mean, it wasn't in 7th, and we have lower point costs and more rerolls today. The way I see it, you're risking a worst case scenario 15.55% chance of death (assuming you're rerolling 1s) to deal 2-3 turns worth of damage in one turn. Setting aside the huge dividends paid when you prematurely remove a unit from the board, how many units survive 3 turns of combat and how often do you wish a unit just had another turn or two to deal damage?

**Suzuteo**

rvd1ofakind wrote:
Maybe you should read my post again.
I'll re-explain it here:
If you get a 8/10 from an exam. Hey, that's not too bad. But then you see that everyone else got 9s or 10s and that means you are the worst.
Same thing goes for Kataphrons. They are solid. But the units that fill the same roles are just plain better: Kastelans, Onagers, Knights and Las Cannon Balistarii.

This is what I said in the post. This is not "THEY BAD".

Again: if they work for you or you manage to find a way to get a +1 to hit so they never overheat - sure, tell us.
Until then, I won't use them since I'm a tryhard and it's all just my opinion.

I think you also missed my point. Destroyers (both Grav and OC Plasma) are different than the other artillery. Like Crusaders and Ballistarii, they have advantages over Kastelans and Crawlers in certain circumstances. All I wanted to do was to explore those circumstances because I did not understand them very well, since I do not own any.

I'm not saying that they are strictly better, nor am I saying that I plan on using them or recommending that anyone use them.

Is this really that hard to understand?

**Suzuteo**

rvd1ofakind wrote:
Still think Infiltrators are a must due to low mobility in the first list

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also. Icarus Onager can't be underestimated. If you fire all 3 guns at optimal ground targets, the weapon is as strong as neutron pure damage wise. And it's cheaper. If you fire at fliers, array is about 50% better than neutron firing at ground cognis included.

Ofc we still need neutron for t7-8 3+ armour dudes.

Agreed. I think every list is going to need Infiltrators, Dragoons, or some Imperium detachment with transports. You can't win the game pushing nothing but slow-moving artillery pieces around.

The volume of fire that Icarus Crawlers puts out is impressive. It is as you say. They are as efficient as Neutron against mid-weight targets and moreso against light-weight targets (but not nearly as efficient as Kastelans), but they are crazy efficient against anything that flies. I think OP has it right though: I am currently am doing Battalion with 1 Icarus, 1 Neutron, 1 2x Kastelan, and 1 RFBC Crusader. (I don't feel like I can push out a Crawler for another Kastelan unit, so the Crusader fills in.)

**Suzuteo**

Gitsplitta wrote:
Just finished my first game of 8th tonight, thought I'd share some observations to add to the collective.

2k pts vs. ork horde... 60 storm boys, 60 boys, some artillery and characters. We played end-to-end specifically because my opponent wanted to see how he'd fare having to cross the table. We both made mistakes (tactical and rules-wise) but it was a good learning experience. Please keep in mind these are my impressions from one game...

Yeah, these grades are pretty much in line with what we would expect against Green Tide. Stuff like Neutron Crawlers, Infiltrators, and Dragoons are not very efficient against Boyz. Their best use is pretty much bubble wrap.

I am curious though. How did the Ork artillery perform in comparison to our own? I don't remember seeing them as much in 7th.

**Suzuteo**

gally912 wrote:
Aaranis wrote:
[

I would've said that Taser Infiltrators/Taser Dragoons were nice against Orks due to their numbers and bad save, if you proc the Tesla hits you can have a good killstreak. Easier than hitting Space Marines with 3+ saves anyhow.

Poor dragoons. They kill 1.75 boys (3.5 if taze goes off). Put 1.5 wounds on a lowly Trukk, maybe 3 if taze goes off.

Heck, TWO Dragoons that rolled 6's to hit for ALL of their attacks would just barely take out a single ork trukk. Depends on those ramshakle rolls.

They need an AP value or *something*

Wait what? Each Dragoon attacks 3 times with a S8 attack. 67% to hit, explodes 25% of hits. Boyz have T4 and a 6+ save. It deals 2 damage per hit, reduced to 1 for an Ork Boy.

(3)(.67) = 2 hits
(2)(.75) + (2)(3)(.25) = 3 hits after explodes
(3)(.83) = 2.5 wounds
(2.5)(.83) = 2.075 damage

Should be killing two Orks per Dragoon on average. (Or is it really late and my brain is fried?)

What's a Trukk's statline?

**Suzuteo**

Aaranis wrote:

Well if it's the real mathammer that's pretty sad. I killed two Primaris Marines on the charge when I used mine in a game against the starter box Primaris, and when the Captain killed him he exploded, finishing off the Captain. That's the best use I've had of my Dragoon so far, go die in a melee to dish out a bunch of mortal wounds. I'll try it with the Radium Jezzail someday.

Dragoons are probably one of the better units to take care of Primaris due to the 2 Damage on Taser Lance. (Kastelans or something with AP like Caliver Vanguard is typically better, but Primaris is in a frustratingly good position to attract overkill with its high-armor, 2 Wound body.)

Dragoon vs. Primaris
(3)(.67) = 2 hits
(2)(.75) + (2)(3)(.25) = 3 hits after explodes
(3)(.83) = 2.5 wounds
(2.5)(.33) = 0.83 unsaved wounds

Assuming normal distribution and the standard deviation of a single dice roll, you will kill a Primaris 46.04% of the time.

gally912 wrote:
I appreciate their mobility, but boy do they sure not kill anything well outside of low armor, multiwound models. Which I'm not seeing a lot of. Even the most paper vehicles have a 4+ save.

Yes, Dragoons are an average unit. They are pretty bad against anything with 1 Wound and decent Armor save. But I think we sell them short on light vehicles, and we're being reductionist by just looking at these units in isolation without considering what they do for other units.

Dragoon vs. Trukk
(3)(.67) = 2 hits
(2)(.75) + (2)(3)(.25) = 3 hits after explodes
(3)(.67) = 2 wounds
(2)(.5) = 1 unsaved wounds
(1)(2) = 2 damage

Kastelan (no Protector Protocol) vs. Trukk
(18)(.67) = 12 hits
(12)(.5) = 6 wounds
(6)(.5) = 3 unsaved wounds

Dragoon is more efficient per point:
34 points per wound
36.67 points per wound

Has a cheaper instant kill:
5*68 = 340
4*110 = 440

And a cheaper minimum point investment.

But you know whats better than all Kastelans and all Dragoons? Kastelans with Dragoons. Because the latter will let the former safely set up for Protector Protocols without a Trukk jumping out of LOS cover to dump a barrel of Boyz on it. (Infiltrators also work. Vanguard to a lesser extent.)

**Suzuteo**

gally912 wrote:
Not to dig your math, but Heavy Phosphor Blasters have -2 AP

Ah, good catch. I was actually expecting Kastelans to win against Trukks, and I was surprised by the result.

rvd1ofakind wrote:
Yeah, I've also noticed that Dragoons are just complete garbage. But everyone kept praising them for some reason :/
I remodeled mine to balistarii

Complete garbage seems a bit harsh. They are average due to the 0 AP, but they're notable along with Infiltrators in being the only units that are mobile and won't implode the instant they enter CC. (I really wish Dragoons got a more reliable pistol option. Right now, in terms of melee, Dragoons and Infiltrators are roughly on par, but those 25 flechette rounds put them over, especially against GEQ.)

Ballistarii are good too. Still trying to wrap my head around the paradoxical notion of a mobile artillery platform though.

**Suzuteo**

Speaking of hordes and canticles... remember that Litany of the Electromancer exists.

**Suzuteo**

rvd1ofakind wrote:
WrentheFaceless wrote:
Well Dark Mechanicum FW rules just became better than Normal Ad Mech. They can repair all chaos vehicles and knights.

source?

Also very interested in this. Making Tzeentch Dark Mechanicum is sort of a dream, but they just never had the proper rules support...

**Suzuteo**

rvd1ofakind wrote:
Thoughts after a few more decisive victories. Damn, AdMech feel really powerful:
Kastelans - disgustingly good.
Onagers - really really good. Both neutron and icarus.
Cawl - must take
Vanguard - must take for bubblewrap. Special weapons are next to useless since they just die turn 1 or 2.
Ranger - I'd take 1 squad of 5. Snipers are weird since you have to place them where they can see everything but can't be seen by anyone... But they're effective when they get shots off. Can kill a character a turn easily.
Infiltrators - still think they're a must due to no mobility in the army. But tasers feel really useless vs 3+ armour, which due to the popularity of space marines, is plentiful. Swords?
Dominus - actually not as bad as I thought. Still would be hard pressed to take more than 1 :p
Knight Crusader - very much so worth the points.
Balistarii - has yet to do any damage...... Like.... seriously? xD
Most games are easily won on turn 2 or 3. Tabled a guy on turn 3 once.
Ofc these aren't very well optimised lists facing me, but the players are competant definitelly with tournament wins.

Two units of 2 Kastelans or one? I'm still wondering how to pick between 2 units of Crawlers and 2 of Kastelans in my 3 slots. Currently, it is the variety pack: Icarus, Neutron, Kastelan, and an RFBC Crusader for more anti-horde. (The fact that each unit of Kastelans will need a Datasmith is sort of annoying too.)

Your statement on Infiltrators is exactly why I am taking Dragoons even if I know that there are more point efficient options.

You doing Thermal + Avenger on your Crusader?

Funny... Balistarii have mobility and range. How are they doing as objective grabbers? (Unless you're doing pure point games.)

Verviedi wrote:

++The so called "Angels" of the false omnissiah shall fall before our engines devious.++

Oooh. Question though: Are these going to have their own specific lines of models, or can we use regular Admech stuff as well? =\

**Suzuteo**

Aaranis wrote:

Any news of the FAQ that was supposed to pop today ?

EDIT: Found the FAQ but no errata, was it officially announced anyway ?

In case anyone cannot find it:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/06/17/new-edition-now-available-read-the-rules-get-the-t-shirtgw-homepage-post-1/

I really am not liking how they phrased dice rolls. They should probably introduce phrasing such as "pre-modified hit roll" or "natural hit roll" to eliminate the need for this fine-tuning.