The Death of cross-faction "counts as"?

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**Galef**

So in Matched play, all models in your entire army must share at least 1 faction keyword.
Overall, I think this is great for the game and stops the need for an Aliie Matrix (which GW has never gotten quite right)

But a thought occurred to me: You can no longer use "counts as" models if your main 'non-counts as' army doesn't share a keyword with the models you are including
For those of you that have seen my stuff, I have done a ton of "counts as" stuff over the years, most of it Eldar Wraith construct-base.

Here are some examples of mine:
Wraith construct Craftworld with no living Eldar due to a virus (Necrons): http://glennsgwmodels.blogspot.com/2012/08/eldar-wraithcrons.html
Jet-pack Wraith constructs (T'au): http://glennsgwmodels.blogspot.com/2014/02/wraith-construct-tau-allies.html
Anti- Daemon Wraith constructs (Grey Knights): http://glennsgwmodels.blogspot.com/2016/01/eldar-terminators.html

I also have quite a few Eldar/Dark Eldar cross over stuff, and some CSMs counts as Daemons. But in those cases, this edition is great as they share <keywords> and can just be plugged into the army.
But for my other "counts as" ideas, this edition puts an extra layer in my "design" process that may well prevent creative ideas entirely.

Do you guys have any other examples of "counts as" stuff that you now cannot play in Matched Play?

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**JohnU**

I consider your stuff to be more of a conversion than a "counts as". Since the entire army is a consistent theme you'd probably be ok as long as you can point out what is what as far as models and wargear are. Just double check with the TO/opponent first.

I see "counts as" more like, I have a custom SM chapter and I want to use the Lysander model with all his stats and rules.

**vipoid**

Sorry, I'm really confused as to what you're asking here.

Are you saying that you can't use Eldar and Necrons in the same army? Or are you saying that you can no longer use Eldar that have been converted to Necrons?

**AnomanderRake**

vipoid wrote:
Sorry, I'm really confused as to what you're asking here.

Are you saying that you can't use Eldar and Necrons in the same army? Or are you saying that you can no longer use Eldar that have been converted to Necrons?

He's saying "I have this lore concept/batch of models I was mixing unrelated Codexes to represent before, and now I can't do that".

Which always seemed kind of silly to me, because it's kind of a gross/unnecessarily brute-force solution to a whole lot of problems. Anti-Daemon Wraith armies could be Wraith armies with Spiritseers rolling Sanctic (in 7th), for instance; using your Wraithguard as Grey Knights is just kind of silly.

**ERJAK**

Do what you want, Matt Root won the ITC with an entire Admech army made of Orkz. As long as the equipment is correct and you point out what is what no one (minus hardcore FAAC players) will care. Especially if the army looks cool.

**vipoid**

I wonder whether my Fallen Celestine would be allowed.

Spoiler:

**Galef**

vipoid wrote:
I wonder whether my Fallen Celestine would be allowed.

Spoiler:

See, now that is awesome. And it would not be allowed if you were using Celestines rules in an army that is otherwise Chaos. No <Imperium> units share faction keywords with any <Chaos> units (except the Fallen and Cypher). So in order for you to use that model, your whole army would have to be <Imperium>, even if model-wise they were all spikey and chaos-ified.

Most of my stuff isn't meant to be as full-on armies (except my Necron example). My T'au & GK stuff was always taken alongside a detachment of "true" Eldar.
So while they are conversions, they are ELDAR conversions that "count as" other faction units.
Don't get me wrong, I think that having to make your whole army share a <keyword> is great, it is just sad that I can no longer use these models alongside my core Eldar
Worse still, I won't be able to pursue future ideas like this unless it is on a full army scale (which is unlikely)

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**Desubot**

Ask your TOs or opponent

this is pretty much been consistent forever.

**rollawaythestone**

Theme armies aside, I am glad you can't bring Warp Spiders in your Space Marine army, or Riptide Wing with your <insert faction here>.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Technically what you listed isn't actually forbidden, as they are clearly conversions. As long as your wraithcrons are using the Necron rules with the necron keyword and you make it clear which unit is which, I don't see how its a rules violation.

**Desubot**

Actually

i believe there was a detachment add on that is one of anything with no restriction on key words but it -1 a command point.

**MechaEmperor7000**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Technically what you listed isn't actually forbidden, as they are clearly conversions. As long as your wraithcrons are using the Necron rules with the necron keyword and you make it clear which unit is which, I don't see how its a rules violation.

See he was using all of those in the same army, which now is technically not possible with most Matched Play games as there's a soft ban on armies that don't share one faction keyword (although if I remember correctly, it's merely a suggestion, not a hardfast rule. It's only taken as a hard rule because generally people would be trying to build for tournaments, who will be using this rule).

As for the OP: This is sort of the risk any themed army will run into as editions change. Hell even non-themed armies can sometimes run into this too. Anyone with a Vect Model basically had it sit out since 5th edition (and possibly more, since Vect was no longer tied to the thing and was an individual model, so those who couldn't be bothered to convert a Vect basically had a glorified Raider) and I ran into it in 5th edition when my Jump Pack, Dual LC Chaplain was rendered illegal after Chaplains (briefly) lost the ability to take 2 LCs. Another one was losing my Genestealer army when the Broodlord became a sergeant instead of a HQ choice (although that one was easily remedied by playing him as a Tyranid Prime instead). My advice is to either complete the armies on their own (it looks like the Necron one is pretty big already) or merge elements back into your eldar army by finding appropriate rules and just shelving the rest that can't do this as display pieces.

Ironically, for me, this edition actually opened up one of my previous army ideas that wasn't possible; a Necron Wraith Army led by a Necron "Wraith" lord (who counts as a normal destroyer lord). I originally had to run the Wraith Lord as a Spyder because there wasn't a formation that let you take a Destroyer Lord with Wraiths, but it seemed weird how a "Wraith" lord was so much worse at combat than a Destroyer lord.

EDIT: I also sorta ran into this too with the transition from 6th to 7th when my Tank IG were no longer Desperate Allies with Chaos but became "Come the Apocalypse". Technically still doable, but not that feasable. This was less of an issue for me since I just started running my CSM as loyalist Marines and, since it was an Iron Warriors army, daemons weren't an issue.

**Galas**

Theres not a soft ban. In Matched play, in "building your army", it crearly says that you can't have a army where your units don't have at least 1 keyword in common (Unaligned space that restriction)
You can't be more "hard ban"

**vipoid**

Galef wrote:

See, now that is awesome.

Thanks.

Galef wrote:
And it would not be allowed if you were using Celestines rules in an army that is otherwise Chaos. No <Imperium> units share faction keywords with any <Chaos> units (except the Fallen and Cypher). So in order for you to use that model, your whole army would have to be <Imperium>, even if model-wise they were all spikey and chaos-ified.

Well, that's not a huge problem for me as I don't play Chaos. Bit of a shame on principle though. I know my DE would love an HQ with wings.

Galef wrote:

Most of my stuff isn't meant to be as full-on armies (except my Necron example). My T'au & GK stuff was always taken alongside a detachment of "true" Eldar.

Ah, okay. I get you now.

Galef wrote:

So while they are conversions, they are ELDAR conversions that "count as" other faction units.
Don't get me wrong, I think that having to make your whole army share a <keyword> is great, it is just sad that I can no longer use these models alongside my core Eldar
Worse still, I won't be able to pursue future ideas like this unless it is on a full army scale (which is unlikely)

It is a shame from that perspective. For what it's worth, I really love your Tau and Necron conversions.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Galas wrote:
Theres not a soft ban. In Matched play, in "building your army", it crearly says that you can't have a army where your units don't have at least 1 keyword in common (Unaligned space that restriction)
You can't be more "hard ban"

Whoops my bad. I was thinking of the Detachment Numbers. I TAKE IT BACK!

**jeff white**

rollawaythestone wrote:
Theme armies aside, I am glad you can't bring Warp Spiders in your Space Marine army, or Riptide Wing with your <insert faction here>.

**TheLumberJack**

Just ask your opponent if they are okay with you using them, problem solved

**Galef**

jeff white wrote:
rollawaythestone wrote:
Theme armies aside, I am glad you can't bring Warp Spiders in your Space Marine army, or Riptide Wing with your <insert faction here>.

I totally agree. While it sucks to have to "restrict" my conversion ideas, I'll take that hit if it means better balance for the game.

TheLumberJack wrote:
Just ask your opponent if they are okay with you using them, problem solved

My gaming group is pretty chill, so I probably wouldn't have any issues with that. But I'll probably avoid it just the same. I've always strived to adhere to the core rules.

The real shame is that my Wraithlords riding Jetbikes just can't get a break. I originally converted them to be Saim-hann style WraithKnights back when they were just Heavy Support with double the movement and wounds of a Wraithlord.
Then GW made WKs a Gargantuan LoW choice and I had to restrict myself to only 1 as to not be TFG. And at that point, I just used my 'true' WK model as my conversions just seemed too small for GMCs.
But it was ok because I made some alterations to them (painting their head silver and blade similar to GK nemesis weapons) and used them as "counts as" DreadKnights

They seemed to be perfect for that as the 'shunt' move represented a turbo-boost and the Heavy Psycannon represented a "heavy shuricannon"
But now GKs cannot be included in the same army as Eldar. Even if they could, the DK rules changed too much to really represent my models, although my Wraithguard "terminators" got even closer.

My favorite conversions of all time seem destined to continue having their purpose restricted. I'll probably have to field them as Grav Tanks now. (or just say 'screw it' and use them as WKs like they were intented, using a Super Heavy Detachment of 3 WKs)

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