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So I played my first game today of 8th edition. Haven't played since half way through 5th ed.
I played Tau, my friend played his Necrons.

We kinda felt that Necrons were OP for 2 reasons.
1) Get back up rule every turn.
2) Leadership 10.

Get back is obviously because you get it every turn. ....the only exception is to wipe out the squad - which can be extremely difficult to do since it is leadership 10.

Now obviously the edition is new, and Tau vs Necrons have always been a tough fight for Tau, but Necrons used to have a weakness which was getting wiped out in combat. .....now it seems there is no weakness. Doing a morale test on a leadership 10 means you have to lose 5 models from a squad before you even are at risk of failing the leadership test. ....that's alot of necrons to take down in 1 turn to force a morale test.
I can see a strategy on how to win for Tau but it is quite....boring. You just castle up in the corner and focus fire on 1 unit at a time.

Anyone else have thoughts on this? Am i missing something?

The_Peacemaker wrote:
So I played my first game today of 8th edition. Haven't played since half way through 5th ed.
I played Tau, my friend played his Necrons.

We kinda felt that Necrons were OP for 2 reasons.
1) Get back up rule every turn.
2) Leadership 10.

Get back is obviously because you get it every turn. ....the only exception is to wipe out the squad - which can be extremely difficult to do since it is leadership 10.

Now obviously the edition is new, and Tau vs Necrons have always been a tough fight for Tau, but Necrons used to have a weakness which was getting wiped out in combat. .....now it seems there is no weakness. Doing a morale test on a leadership 10 means you have to lose 5 models from a squad before you even are at risk of failing the leadership test. ....that's alot of necrons to take down in 1 turn to force a morale test.
I can see a strategy on how to win for Tau but it is quite....boring. You just castle up in the corner and focus fire on 1 unit at a time.

Anyone else have thoughts on this? Am i missing something?

I think they are priced way to cheap for all the op rules they have. Wait until you fight against vehicles with quantum shielding and living metal if you think reanimation is op.

I think time will tell if they are actually overpowered, but yes the general strategy definitely seems like it is to either wipe an entire squad, or to kill other units in the army that cant come back (vehicles etc). Hopefully if they are OP GW will nerf them before too much time goes by, but honestly I think we need a lot more games and try a lot more strategies to tell what is too good and whats not.

Warriors are pretty cheap. Immortals are reasonable. Many other things are not even vaguely cheap, especially real anti tank, where they pay 2-3 times the going rate.

Flayed ones seem significantly overpriced, to the point it made my eyes pop. Yes, even with 4 attacks.

beachedwalrusau wrote:


I think they are priced way to cheap for all the op rules they have. Wait until you fight against vehicles with quantum shielding and living metal if you think reanimation is op.

I did. ....opponent rolled horribly for quantum shielding so I got like 9 wounds through in 1 volley. But ya, anti-vehicle weapons getting outright ignored became a problem pretty quick. Wouldn't be so bad if quantium shileding roll simply reduced the dmg to 1.

Just shoot one squad at a time, until it's dead - then they won't be back.

It's too early to call them OP

How about your friend tries a few more lists and a few more different unit setups.

Claiming that the only way to beat them is by cornering yourself seems pretty excessive of a claim.

 Talamare wrote:
It's too early to call them OP

How about your friend tries a few more lists and a few more different unit setups.

Claiming that the only way to beat them is by cornering yourself seems pretty excessive of a claim.

...well its cause and effect.
main reason to castle up is so that all your armies firepower is in range to focus fire. And in Tau there isn't really alot of other options, Melee isn't really a decent option since the best tactic is to flee - which also is beneficial to have your other units close by in order to focus fire on the melee unit. And Tau also have drone bubble incentives too.

I'm thinking a bunch of house rules is going to be the answer. Especially in regards to line of sight and terrain bonus's. Otherwise almost every game turns into a castle game, even with objectives.

Necrons felt a bit over the top to me at first too but I've been narrowing down some weaknesses. The going thing is going to be Warriors + Ghost Arks + Cryptechs with anti-tank backup, Warriors are one of the cheaper army options and they're really good. However they're slow and have to be taken in large numbers or getting back up doesn't work as well. This leads to a very elite build, Necrons don't have great screens for example (Scarabs exist but they don't seem to be amazing screens in the way Conscripts are). Necrons aren't good in Combat , even their specialty units are insane at it, and I've been getting good mileage out of charging them and making them fall back. When they withdraw they do nothing next turn and having those big units out of the game....well it's bad.

Necrons also fade hard as the game goes along and really have to build up a lead. Morale is super dangerous for them, even with Leadership 10, so once they run out of Command Points it gets a lot easier to remove a unit. They also have problems improving their Saves because of how Cover works now so it's pretty easy to put them down until they stay down.

It seems like you have to be able to take 1-2 punches Necrons as they're the anti-alpha strike. If your list hits super hard but fades fast they will wreck you but if you have staying power and can keep pressure on then you can pull it out. They don't seem OP, they're just very good and frustrating to play against. It's a grind.

The_Peacemaker wrote:

 Talamare wrote:
It's too early to call them OP

How about your friend tries a few more lists and a few more different unit setups.

Claiming that the only way to beat them is by cornering yourself seems pretty excessive of a claim.

...well its cause and effect.
main reason to castle up is so that all your armies firepower is in range to focus fire. And in Tau there isn't really alot of other options, Melee isn't really a decent option since the best tactic is to flee - which also is beneficial to have your other units close by in order to focus fire on the melee unit. And Tau also have drone bubble incentives too.

I'm thinking a bunch of house rules is going to be the answer. Especially in regards to line of sight and terrain bonus's. Otherwise almost every game turns into a castle game, even with objectives.

You know what Quantum Shielding hates? Volume of fire at S6/7 that does D3 damage or less. Missile Pods are your friends.

If you're castling up as a viable strategy, your opponent isn't being aggressive enough. Refused Flank doesn't work if his units are fast enough to come barreling in down your throat. Where's the Canoptek Wraith squads that are immune to Morale? Where's the swarms of Canoptek Scarabs to overwhelm you with cheap bodies and buckets of (surprisingly accurate) attacks? Where's the Lychguard dropping out of a Night Scythe for the multi-charge? Necrons aren't lacking for CC units.

Current Reanimation Protocols are approximately a million times more balanced than the previous version, where you got to roll right away like 6th or 7th edition FNP except you couldn't negate it and it was almost always on a 4+.

Necrons are, for the most part, slow. Tau can be surprisingly fast. You have a commander ability that lets all your infantry get a free turn of Eldar Battle Focus, Mech suits have Fly and can drop in, the Riptide can get around, and you have skimmers. Tau aren't lacking in options for mobility; 7th edition just got a lot of players for all factions in a gunline mentality when that just doessn't work against smart opponents in 8th.

Terrain rules are what's keeping hordes in check at the moment. I would hesitate to change them. And LOS didn't strike me as a problem for 8th considering how cover and shooting is handled.

The_Peacemaker wrote:
So I played my first game today of 8th edition. Haven't played since half way through 5th ed.
I played Tau, my friend played his Necrons.

We kinda felt that Necrons were OP for 2 reasons.
1) Get back up rule every turn.
2) Leadership 10.

They've always had both of those though.

The_Peacemaker wrote:

Get back is obviously because you get it every turn. ....the only exception is to wipe out the squad - which can be extremely difficult to do since it is leadership 10.

The key is to concentrate fire on one squad at a time. Don't rely on Ld to do your work for you.

The_Peacemaker wrote:
Now obviously the edition is new, and Tau vs Necrons have always been a tough fight for Tau, but Necrons used to have a weakness which was getting wiped out in combat. .....now it seems there is no weakness.

I disagree - they still have weaknesses:
- RPs rely on at least one member of the squad surviving. If you wipe out an entire squad, the Necron player doesn't get to make a single RP roll. They're dead and they ain't comin' back.Likewise, if you kill a character or vehicle in one turn then Living Metal is worthless.
- Quantum Shielding is decent protection against Meltas but is worthless against 1-damage weapons and has very little impact on 2-damage weapons. These are your best bet for taking out Necron vehicles.
- Vehicles. Almost ironically, Necrons are now one of the worst factions in terms of anti-vehicle ability. They have few options outside of just massing fire and hoping for the best (a far less attractive principle with the new wounding system for vehicles), and the options they do have are incredibly expensive. For the price of a single Heavy Destroyer, my IG can get a whole Heavy Weapons Squad, all with Lascannons.
- Speed. With just 5 movement, most of the Necron army is going to be moving very slowly. This is especially important given their next weakness.
- Range. There's little in the Necron army that has more than 24" of range. Combined with their low speed, it should be relatively easy to attack parts of their army, whilst remaining safely out of range of other parts.
- Large squad sizes and character bubbles. Because of RPs, Necrons will want to max out every squad. This increases their resilience but makes them a lot more unwieldy and will make it difficult for them to spread out much. Adding to this is the Cryptkes and other character buffs, which will encourage them to bunch their infantry as much as possible.
- Melee. Whilst not as bad for the Necrons as it once was, most of their units still don't want to be there. Even hitting on 3s, with just one attack apiece and no special weapons their damage output is drastically reduced. What's more, even if they retreat they then prevent themselves from shooting. And this is really important when you consider that Necrons need big squads for RPs to work - so by entering melee you can easily take 20 warriors out of the game for a turn (regardless of whether they stay in melee, they're not going to be shooting anything).

My suggestion would be to focus on the most mobile elements of their army first (destroyers, wraiths, vehicles), whilst doing your best to keep away from the main concentration of their forces. If you can remove their mobile elements, then you can basically use your mobility to take out their remaining forces a piece at a time.

You know, there's another thread saying they're too weak.
So if there's one thread that states they are weak, and another that they are OP, I guess that makes them balanced.

They aren't OP, they have clearly defined weaknesses.
The RP doesn't work when everyone is dead, so focus down each squad.
Necrons heavily rely on their characters to get the most out their army, so kill the characters.
QS doesn't work against weapons with a damage value of 1, and the vehicles are only T6 4+ save, so stop wasting time shooting them with weapons they are designed to counter and drown them in bullets.
Necrons have no mobility. Before they had a few teleportation options, but they lack those now. The majority of their army either has to foot slog or rely on expensive transports to get them somewhere. So out maneuver them.
Necrons also have trouble against vehicles now, so stock up on them.

Well specifically for this thread I'm talking about necrons vs tau. So the close combat weakness's of Necrons are not really valid. ...And 3+ for close combat is pretty good. So if other threads are comparing to something like ....Primaris marines(poster boys of OP I assume?) then those threads are meh.

Necrons do not lack in Range. Range 24" plus a 5" move = 29 inch bubble. And their destroyers are 36". And 36" plus move typically equals the entire board.

The problem with Tau mobility is that vs Necrons you have to focus fire. .....so spreading out and hoping around doesn't do a heck of alot when I need to keep my army within range of that 1 unit to shoot literally every single thing in my army against it.

I've been playing Tau vs Necrons since 3rd edition. It's always been a tough fight and I know that. What shocked me is that the tactic now is to castle up. So the matches becomes extremely boring. No mobility, very little close combat, just sit and shoot.

Older editions at least you could take double toughness weapons to whittle a few of the really potent units down. And occasionally win a combat and force them to fail morale check and get wiped out.(with Tau I only succeded in this with using crisis suits and Farsight charge).


I did play a game with my Tyranids vs Necrons. My Tyranids won. Could not catch his destroyers though. And I won through just weight of numbers. Termagants with Devourers popping up through a Trygon Prime burrow hole is pretty good. .....failed psycic tests 2 in a row. First was double 1's. Then Double 6's. Spell didn't really do anything anyway. So basically I just took 3 wounds off my Tyrant(rolled low for mortal wounds fortunatly). And he countered all the other spells I tried to cast that game. Would have loved to get that catalyst ward save on a big tyranid unit.
But he was trying out some different tactics with his necrons cause we are still getting used to the game.

Edit: also I realized with my Tau that the gun drones have 2 carbines which have assault 2. which means 4 shots. .....So I'm pretty sure my Fire warriors are not going to see the tabletop anytime soon.

The_Peacemaker wrote:

Necrons do not lack in Range. Range 24" plus a 5" move = 29 inch bubble.

That's really not a long range.

Also, whilst that might be the maximum range, the optimal range for most Necron infantry weapons is just 12" (otherwise they're shooting their rapid fire weapons at 50% effectiveness).

The_Peacemaker wrote:
And their destroyers are 36". And 36" plus move typically equals the entire board.

Only Heavy Destroyers have 36" range - regular Destroyers are only range 24".

The_Peacemaker wrote:

The problem with Tau mobility is that vs Necrons you have to focus fire. .....so spreading out and hoping around doesn't do a heck of alot when I need to keep my army within range of that 1 unit to shoot literally every single thing in my army against it.

I'm struggling to see how you reach that conclusion. It seems like mobility would be a huge advantage for that purpose - as you can use it to draw a bead on the 1-2 squads you want to focus fire on, whilst staying outside the range of many other units in the Necron army.

The_Peacemaker wrote:

I've been playing Tau vs Necrons since 3rd edition. It's always been a tough fight and I know that. What shocked me is that the tactic now is to castle up. So the matches becomes extremely boring. No mobility, very little close combat, just sit and shoot.

I'm not sure that Tau can complain about a lack of combat.

The_Peacemaker wrote:

Older editions at least you could take double toughness weapons to whittle a few of the really potent units down. And occasionally win a combat and force them to fail morale check and get wiped out.(with Tau I only succeded in this with using crisis suits and Farsight charge).

Sure. But the old Necrons could counter that with Resurrection Orbs, and 7th edition ones got their FNP+1 saves anyway.

Consider this - in 7th Decurion Necrons would be getting at least a 5+++ save no matter what weapon you used (and usually it would be 4+++). Now though, if you wipe out their unit, they don't get a save at all.

Also, while double-toughness weapons no longer affect RPs, Multi-Wound weapons are quite plentiful now and can be devastating to units like Destroyers.

I've been checking BCP all afternoon, and tau look like they have it rough right now, like really rough. It might be advisable before creating a duplicate thread (yes this has already been discussed at length) to check your own list to see if the fault was yours before making a post that will be a lighting rod for trolls.

Without FW stuff Necrons are pretty terrible at dealing with big vehicles. Heavy Destroyers are woefully inefficient for their points compared to anyone else's lascannon infantry.

Played a friend's Necrons with my Deathwatch and my Tyrannids, I got my butt handed to me with the Nids in a long, grinding match but figured out what needed to be done and returned the favour with the much smaller model count Deathwatch and boardwiped him on the third turn.

Necrons aren't OP, they don't have great saves, they no longer have natural layered saves, their guns aren't that great, their melee is average.
The thing to remember is to commit to killing a unit until it's gone. Better to over commit, overkill and have units milling about than watch the unit bump back up to full strength for the next turn.

 Grimgold wrote:
I've been checking BCP all afternoon, and tau look like they have it rough right now, like really rough. It might be advisable before creating a duplicate thread (yes this has already been discussed at length) to check your own list to see if the fault was yours before making a post that will be a lighting rod for trolls.

Tau do not have it rough. They are just as balanced as any other army at the moment; people just don't want to adjust to the new paradigm of combat in 8th edition. Sitting in a corner is tantamount to suicide now that Markerlights can't buff Overwatch and Supporting Fire has lost a lot of its power now that you can multi-charge much easier and without any penalties.

I had my first game against Necrons today. While they do seem to be strong their speed and relatively short range on much of their weapons seems to be a strong balancing factor. Most armies can easily outrun them, I had a Tactical Squad Sergeant jump on top of the relic who then spent most of the game running away out of range of the Necron guns

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

The_Peacemaker wrote:

Necrons do not lack in Range. Range 24" plus a 5" move = 29 inch bubble.

That's really not a long range.

Ya, not really long range. It's medium.

Also, whilst that might be the maximum range, the optimal range for most Necron infantry weapons is just 12" (otherwise they're shooting their rapid fire weapons at 50% effectiveness).

This I disagree with. That's close range and at risk of close combat and not being able to shoot. Rapid firing at close range is a luxury, not a standard.

The_Peacemaker wrote:
And their destroyers are 36". And 36" plus move typically equals the entire board.

Only Heavy Destroyers have 36" range - regular Destroyers are only range 24".

Ah, my mistake.

The_Peacemaker wrote:

The problem with Tau mobility is that vs Necrons you have to focus fire. .....so spreading out and hoping around doesn't do a heck of alot when I need to keep my army within range of that 1 unit to shoot literally every single thing in my army against it.

I'm struggling to see how you reach that conclusion. It seems like mobility would be a huge advantage for that purpose - as you can use it to draw a bead on the 1-2 squads you want to focus fire on, whilst staying outside the range of many other units in the Necron army.

I guess it depends entirely on what board setup you are using? Line of sight is essentially 360degrees unless you play with line of sight blocking stuff.
And the other part is how do you stay outside of range when the board is 48inches. ....and you start roughly 24" apart? 1 move phase and the necrons are in range. This has always been a problem for GW rules as written though. Throwing some Line of sight blocking terrain does make it much more enjoyable.

The_Peacemaker wrote:

I've been playing Tau vs Necrons since 3rd edition. It's always been a tough fight and I know that. What shocked me is that the tactic now is to castle up. So the matches becomes extremely boring. No mobility, very little close combat, just sit and shoot.

I'm not sure that Tau can complain about a lack of combat.

Actually the Kroot do pretty good. Kroot hounds even better!
I was just used to charging in Crisis suits and Drones that used to hit on 4+ because of the WS chart. ....now they hit on 5's which is more accurate to the fluff and a good change overall.

The_Peacemaker wrote:

Older editions at least you could take double toughness weapons to whittle a few of the really potent units down. And occasionally win a combat and force them to fail morale check and get wiped out.(with Tau I only succeded in this with using crisis suits and Farsight charge).

Sure. But the old Necrons could counter that with Resurrection Orbs, and 7th edition ones got their FNP+1 saves anyway.

Consider this - in 7th Decurion Necrons would be getting at least a 5+++ save no matter what weapon you used (and usually it would be 4+++). Now though, if you wipe out their unit, they don't get a save at all.

Well I never played 7th. But getting back up every turn solidifies the tactic that you have to kill the squad. I guess time will tell if other tactics emerge but i think it will just be that you have to target a squad and at the expense of targeting anything else - even with specialized weapons. Anti-Tank guns going to target the tank? nope, it's target the squad.

Also, while double-toughness weapons no longer affect RPs, Multi-Wound weapons are quite plentiful now and can be devastating to units like Destroyers.

Personally I didn't have much issue with the army I faced, it was just a matter of focusing down units one at a time. The vehicles also didn't seem that bad.

In the four games I have seen have necromancy I haven't seen them win once. It is possible that it's not that be done are OP but they your tau list was not a good army list (or at the very least not a good list for fighting necrons)

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
I've been checking BCP all afternoon, and tau look like they have it rough right now, like really rough. It might be advisable before creating a duplicate thread (yes this has already been discussed at length) to check your own list to see if the fault was yours before making a post that will be a lighting rod for trolls.

Tau do not have it rough. They are just as balanced as any other army at the moment; people just don't want to adjust to the new paradigm of combat in 8th edition. Sitting in a corner is tantamount to suicide now that Markerlights can't buff Overwatch and Supporting Fire has lost a lot of its power now that you can multi-charge much easier and without any penalties.

That's the thing though, Tau have had their mobility reduced in this edition, and the most mobile stuff has had the biggest points cost increases. The updated Tau rules penalise you least if you go for a boring gunline. My main gripe with Tau is that I get that they aren't good in combat and have no psychic stuff that's just Tau, but to offset this they used to have have features like being able to fire multiple weapons and target multiple units and have impressive shooting buffs. This time everyone has those first two rules, and markerlights are pretty meh now, but at least they're cheap and easier to fire. I just feel Tau are even more generic and dull now, but that's probably just a product of index rules vs a proper codex release. Touranment results for Tau seemed alright though, so who knows really. As everyone says, time will tell.

I've been running a dual-threat BA list that uses a firebase of marines with various heavy weapons along with a reroll aura character, and a deep strike contingent of lemartes, several DC units, sanguinor, a priest, and then all four assassins doing their own specialties. It's not really a hyper-offense list, but a kind of take all comers strategy that can adapt to a lot of opponents.

I've been doing the emperor's work with the list, beating down other marines, chaos, eldar/dark eldar, tau, nids etc.

Then I started running up against necrons, and after a few games, all of which were horribly one-sided, I've begun to feel completely helpless against them. I mean, I inspected the rules, listened to reviews about them, and went into the first game understanding that I need to be prioritizing finishing off units, similar to a few editions ago.

Then during the games I came to a stunning realization: it's actually not easy to bring down 20 t4 models with a 5+ invuln in one round. Especially if you're wanting to use multiple phases like shooting then assault. It's a simple matter for the necron player to just take casualties in such a way to increase your charge distance. Even just shooting with multiple units presents issues, as the unit can be coherency'd out and a couple guys can be conga lined back to somewhere safe like behind a ruin. You shoot with unit number 1 - 5, kill all but the last few, go to shoot with unit number 6, and suddenly you realize you can't see them anymore. Voila, between an ark and orikan or another cryptek, the whole unit's back. I mean yeah he has to save CP to make the unit fearless, but if I had the option to spend 2 CP to bring 200 points of dudes back, I'd be saving for it too!

Then of course there's the ghost ark, where I can either hit it with anti-tank weapons and bounce right off the shields, or try to pepper it to death with lighter stuff, which both takes time that I don't have and puts my dudes in very uncomfortable positions, like in range of 40 warriors that are very angry that their vehicular cleric is being scratched up.

In my most recent attempt, I patiently waited for him to advance towards my firebase of dudes while focusing on a warrior squad with 4 grav cannons, 4 heavy bolters, and tossing 2 lascannons at the ark hoping for some love, (nope.) Turn 2 he leaves an opening in the screen near the ark. Lemmy, sanguinor, a priest, 3 DC squads, a sanguinary guard squad, the eversor, and the callidus all zerg in from deep strike for the ark like white on rice, crippling it, and then chasing it down and killing it on the following turn. Thats cool and all, but there's an important detail here. Gauss hurts. After two turns of trying to bring down an ark, and the heavy weapons trying to eat up his CP avoiding morale, most of my dudes are dead. Turns out enemies like to shoot you while you're trying to hurt them, which is really inconsiderate of them.

So with the game's final turns approaching, the last of my assault force finally manages to bring down the warrior squad that I've been killing all game, and then I toss in the towel because there are still two other full squads, some detroyers, characters including super saiyan orikan, and a couple vehicles left approaching my little outpost-ruin of not-nearly-enough heavy weapon marines.

The other games were pretty similar. I try to focus attention on 1-2 units, kill them, and then discover my army is pretty much dead and he still has 1500 points unscathed. Playing as marines and looking at their index as well as them on the table, I feel completely outnumbered, out-ability'd, and outgunned to the point that I would need an entire turn of me rolling 6's and him rolling 1's to even make it a game. The quality difference in the armies just feels insurmountable. And what makes it more annoying is that there was never any master class maneuvering on the necron side. Other than making sure they were in a pre-planned formation to get an aura, defend the other units, and leave some guys strung along to a safe spot in case a unit almost dies, all they really did was walk forward and shoot at whatever was closest to them. Basically autopilot as soon as deployment ended.

So yeah, at the moment I'm really not feeling like necrons are playing the same game I am. The unbelievably awesome RP rule, and AP1 on even their basic guns while being cheaper than my crappy AP0 dude whose special ability from the army is that he might not run away...The last game I wasn't even sure why I was bothering. It gave me a similar feeling as when I showed up to an RTT with a kinda fun mediocre list and round 1 got paired against riptide wing + yvahra + stormsurge tau. Just an exercise in futility.

I'm coming under the impression that the tournament scene will shape up to include necrons as a strong contender, while things that can actually put down 20 warriors in one turn will also flourish.

The_Peacemaker wrote:
This I disagree with. That's close range and at risk of close combat and not being able to shoot. Rapid firing at close range is a luxury, not a standard.

Whether or not you think getting within 12" is tactically wise at any given time is irrelevant.

The fact remains that 12" is still the optimal range for those weapons. Any further and they're either firing at 50% of maximum output or else not firing at all.

The_Peacemaker wrote:

I guess it depends entirely on what board setup you are using? Line of sight is essentially 360degrees unless you play with line of sight blocking stuff.
And the other part is how do you stay outside of range when the board is 48inches. ....and you start roughly 24" apart? 1 move phase and the necrons are in range. This has always been a problem for GW rules as written though. Throwing some Line of sight blocking terrain does make it much more enjoyable.

Might it be better to concentrate your forces on one flank? That should put enough distance between your forces and the Necrons on the other flank that most of them can't get into range after one movement phase.

The_Peacemaker wrote:
Well I never played 7th. But getting back up every turn solidifies the tactic that you have to kill the squad. I guess time will tell if other tactics emerge but i think it will just be that you have to target a squad and at the expense of targeting anything else - even with specialized weapons. Anti-Tank guns going to target the tank? nope, it's target the squad. [/color]

Well, it might depend on the situation (e.g. how many in the squad are left and how confident you are of killing them without turning your anti-tank guns on them). It may also depend on which you think are the more pressing concern - e.g. you could take the opposite route and kill the Necron vehicles first.

Niv-Mizzet, this was pretty much the experience I had last week.

Our necron player only lost one game (to the uber-comp WAAC admech player). He was running two blobs of 20 warriors, 2 10-man immortal units, a unit of destroyers, heavy destroyers, crypteks and anrakyr.

My game against him just felt like a knife to a gunfight game.

I think I killed the same Immortal squad a couple of times over, but he had 5 guys left, 2 get back up, then 3 guys left (3 get back up) then 1 guy left (4 get back up)...

Tried to alpha his destroyers with bikes/heldrake/oblits/terminators turn 1. Just couldn't kill them, and then two of them came back with full wounds (lulwhutplstkskbai).

Comedy moment of the game was when Anrakyr charged the heldrake and he found out the hard way what a baleflamer is for. By then it was too late though; he'd got first blood despite my redunkulous alpha-strike capability.

First, it's difficult to tell you anything that's not very general without lists. Both yours and his.

The_Peacemaker wrote:So I played my first game today of 8th edition. Haven't played since half way through 5th ed.
I played Tau, my friend played his Necrons.

We kinda felt that Necrons were OP for 2 reasons.
1) Get back up rule every turn.
2) Leadership 10.

Get back is obviously because you get it every turn. ....the only exception is to wipe out the squad - which can be extremely difficult to do since it is leadership 10.

Now obviously the edition is new, and Tau vs Necrons have always been a tough fight for Tau, but Necrons used to have a weakness which was getting wiped out in combat. .....now it seems there is no weakness. Doing a morale test on a leadership 10 means you have to lose 5 models from a squad before you even are at risk of failing the leadership test. ....that's alot of necrons to take down in 1 turn to force a morale test.
I can see a strategy on how to win for Tau but it is quite....boring. You just castle up in the corner and focus fire on 1 unit at a time.

Anyone else have thoughts on this? Am i missing something?

Necron basic infantry is 12 points per model with no options. Warriors, are warriors, are warriors. They have a decent gun, WBB, and that's it.

Tau has always had a tough time against Necrons because Necrons do basically the same thing as Tau, but they do it better and are more survivable. This edition, Tau should have a much easier time against necrons because necrons lost their "we can glance vehicles to death with our basic troops!" rules. Now, shooting gauss flayers at a rhino is about as effective as shooting bolters at it (barring the -1 ap).

So now it's going to be all about figuring out how to work around RP. And the answer to that is...concentrated fire. Don't stop shooting at a necron unit until it's dead. Don't rely on them failing their leadership test because even if it's a mathematical certainty, they can always spend 2 CP to auto-pass.

The_Peacemaker wrote:

beachedwalrusau wrote:


I think they are priced way to cheap for all the op rules they have. Wait until you fight against vehicles with quantum shielding and living metal if you think reanimation is op.

I did. ....opponent rolled horribly for quantum shielding so I got like 9 wounds through in 1 volley. But ya, anti-vehicle weapons getting outright ignored became a problem pretty quick. Wouldn't be so bad if quantium shileding roll simply reduced the dmg to 1.

Anti-vehicle weapons aren't anti-necron-vehical weapons. OTOH, pretty much all necron vehicles are only T6, which makes them some of the more flimsy vehicles in the game (most transports are at least T7). That means that your most effective weapons are going to be S6 and S7 weapons that deal 1, 2, 3, or 1d3 damage. That means missile pods.

Breachers are also very effective if they're at 5". So are Ion guns of all kinds.

Also, the anti-necron gun this edition is plasma. If you've got plasma guns on anything, point them at necron vehicles.

And just like necron infantry, make sure you concentrate your fire until your target is gone. Don't spread fire. All necron vehicles regenerate wounds.

Finally, not all necron vehicles have quantum shields. Both flyers, the monolith, and their super-heavies don't get them. They just regenerate.

My friend was complaining that his Necrons were super weak now.

He was complaining that his stuff was supposed to be about survivability, but wasn't tough anymore, and that he had no good tank killing options.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

Spoiler:

I've been running a dual-threat BA list that uses a firebase of marines with various heavy weapons along with a reroll aura character, and a deep strike contingent of lemartes, several DC units, sanguinor, a priest, and then all four assassins doing their own specialties. It's not really a hyper-offense list, but a kind of take all comers strategy that can adapt to a lot of opponents.

I've been doing the emperor's work with the list, beating down other marines, chaos, eldar/dark eldar, tau, nids etc.

Then I started running up against necrons, and after a few games, all of which were horribly one-sided, I've begun to feel completely helpless against them. I mean, I inspected the rules, listened to reviews about them, and went into the first game understanding that I need to be prioritizing finishing off units, similar to a few editions ago.

Then during the games I came to a stunning realization: it's actually not easy to bring down 20 t4 models with a 5+ invuln in one round. Especially if you're wanting to use multiple phases like shooting then assault. It's a simple matter for the necron player to just take casualties in such a way to increase your charge distance. Even just shooting with multiple units presents issues, as the unit can be coherency'd out and a couple guys can be conga lined back to somewhere safe like behind a ruin. You shoot with unit number 1 - 5, kill all but the last few, go to shoot with unit number 6, and suddenly you realize you can't see them anymore. Voila, between an ark and orikan or another cryptek, the whole unit's back. I mean yeah he has to save CP to make the unit fearless, but if I had the option to spend 2 CP to bring 200 points of dudes back, I'd be saving for it too!

Then of course there's the ghost ark, where I can either hit it with anti-tank weapons and bounce right off the shields, or try to pepper it to death with lighter stuff, which both takes time that I don't have and puts my dudes in very uncomfortable positions, like in range of 40 warriors that are very angry that their vehicular cleric is being scratched up.

In my most recent attempt, I patiently waited for him to advance towards my firebase of dudes while focusing on a warrior squad with 4 grav cannons, 4 heavy bolters, and tossing 2 lascannons at the ark hoping for some love, (nope.) Turn 2 he leaves an opening in the screen near the ark. Lemmy, sanguinor, a priest, 3 DC squads, a sanguinary guard squad, the eversor, and the callidus all zerg in from deep strike for the ark like white on rice, crippling it, and then chasing it down and killing it on the following turn. Thats cool and all, but there's an important detail here. Gauss hurts. After two turns of trying to bring down an ark, and the heavy weapons trying to eat up his CP avoiding morale, most of my dudes are dead. Turns out enemies like to shoot you while you're trying to hurt them, which is really inconsiderate of them.

So with the game's final turns approaching, the last of my assault force finally manages to bring down the warrior squad that I've been killing all game, and then I toss in the towel because there are still two other full squads, some detroyers, characters including super saiyan orikan, and a couple vehicles left approaching my little outpost-ruin of not-nearly-enough heavy weapon marines.

The other games were pretty similar. I try to focus attention on 1-2 units, kill them, and then discover my army is pretty much dead and he still has 1500 points unscathed. Playing as marines and looking at their index as well as them on the table, I feel completely outnumbered, out-ability'd, and outgunned to the point that I would need an entire turn of me rolling 6's and him rolling 1's to even make it a game. The quality difference in the armies just feels insurmountable. And what makes it more annoying is that there was never any master class maneuvering on the necron side. Other than making sure they were in a pre-planned formation to get an aura, defend the other units, and leave some guys strung along to a safe spot in case a unit almost dies, all they really did was walk forward and shoot at whatever was closest to them. Basically autopilot as soon as deployment ended.

So yeah, at the moment I'm really not feeling like necrons are playing the same game I am. The unbelievably awesome RP rule, and AP1 on even their basic guns while being cheaper than my crappy AP0 dude whose special ability from the army is that he might not run away...The last game I wasn't even sure why I was bothering. It gave me a similar feeling as when I showed up to an RTT with a kinda fun mediocre list and round 1 got paired against riptide wing + yvahra + stormsurge tau. Just an exercise in futility.

I'm coming under the impression that the tournament scene will shape up to include necrons as a strong contender, while things that can actually put down 20 warriors in one turn will also flourish.

Sounds like either your Necron opponent is an honest cut above mine or your Angels struggle to drop firepower from reserves.

Necrons can't be too OP, from a thread comparing win/loss ratios by army:

 mrhappyface wrote:
So we have seen the ITC results from the first week but how about we get a Dakka results going? See if we can't compile our own data since the ITC results only covered 100 games.

Post the name of the armies that have played so far in your local group and how many games they have won so far, here are my additions:

Astra Militarium - 36W 23L
Tyranids - 30W 27L
Space Marines - 30W 46L
Eldar - 21W 14L
Orks - 19W 36L
Necrons - 12W 15L

[*snip*]

Please post your results and I'll add them to the running total and try to order them as they change.