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Hi all.

Going to spray a bunch of marines today and I want to use the citadel caliban green spray can.

I'm wondering if I need to undercoat them first? Or does this spray work as an undercoat also?

Thanks.
-Jim

Yes, you should undercoat them first.The citadel colour cans are not primers, and will wear away very quickly compared to primed models.
When spray priming be thorough, but be gentle, two coats is easy enough and allows you to rotate the models on your stick for full coverage.

I use Citadel's chaos black, and would follow a process a bit like this:
Chaos black, wait at least 30 minutes, rotate models 90 degrees, more chaos black.
Wait at least an hour.
Caliban green, wait at least 30 minutes, rotate models 90 degrees, more caliban green.

No you don't.

I use the Leadbelcher and Death Guard Green sprays (makes painting my Grey Knights and AM tanks a lot quicker!) straightover plastic/resin/metal and it works just fine. Even Duncan (from the warhammer TV painting tutorial videos) says to prime and basecoat with these sprays without using Chaos Black/Corax White first.

In fact if you're going to brush on your basecoat then he actually recommends using the Standard Mechanicus Grey spray to prime rather than the actual black and white primers, as he prefers that colour as a start point.

Echo the above, I never bother black spraying before colour spraying.

It's never caused me any problems

Demon Jelly Baby has it right. While the paint may seemingly go on fine, it will be less resilient and resistant to damage.

Put it this way, there's a reason priming caught on and you'd be hard pushed to find anyone who paints professionally that doesn't prime models before applying any iother paint.

 sockwithaticket wrote:
... and you'd be hard pushed to find anyone who paints professionally that doesn't prime models before applying any iother paint.

Pretty sure if your going to quote Duncan he says you always must undercoat a model.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2MOmj-D9uo

 Whereswaldo wrote:
Pretty sure if your going to quote Duncan he says you always must undercoat a model.

True, with Chaos Black or Corax White usually. Neither of those sprays are listed as undercoats or primers specifically on the can. Regardless of which spray you buy they all have the same directions. The key is that sprays bond easily and last longer on plastic than liquid acrylics. I have never had trouble with Maccrage Blue or Mechanicus Grey sprays as undercoats so I am fairly certain you can use the Caliban Green as one as well.

Edit: Infact, it states it is for basecoating on the site.
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Citadel-Basecoat-Spray-Caliba-Green

Tutorial for the Captain in Gravis Armour which Duncan states he undercoated with Macragge Blue.

 Ghaz wrote:

 sockwithaticket wrote:
... and you'd be hard pushed to find anyone who paints professionally that doesn't prime models before applying any iother paint.

Spoiler:

Fair enough i had rather discounted the GW lot, but outside of Duncan? I'd be amazed if the commission painters on here like winterdyne and scar were putting paint straight onto plastic without priming.

I'm no painting pro by any stretch of the imagination, but in my mind spraying models with the spray paints straight over plastic (which I do all the time) is different to brushing painting directly onto plastic (which I'd never dream of doing).

Basecoating and priming are completely different processes.

Primers like chaos black and corax white are chemically different to the other spray paints, there is a bonding chemical that binds the paint to the model more strongly than the usual acrylic resin.
This is why it is harder to clean chaos black off your hands than say, leadbelcher.
This bonding compound is not present in the other cans.
Priming readies a model for the basecoat, as paint sticks much more easily to primer than to naked plastic.

The basecoat is the first colour you intend to work from, so this would be macragge blue if you were painting ultramarines or caliban green for dark angels.

When Duncan paints, he has a primed (chaos black) and basecoated (coloured spray) model.
They don't waste time in the videos priming and basecoating a model with a can, there are seperate videos dedicated to those processes.

You can also read this from GW's spray description:
Mechanicus Standard Grey is designed for basecoating all Citadel miniatures. When sprayed over an undercoat, it's a fast way to get a uniform base of colour onto your models.

I use Army painter colour primers as you don't need to use any other primers first and they give great results. They are cheaper to boot and not having to use another primer saves extra money too.

They have loads of colours and 100% matching paint pots (with dropper caps). I completely banished GW paints and only exclusively use AP.

DaemonJellybaby wrote:
Basecoating and priming are completely different processes.

Primers like chaos black and corax white are chemically different to the other spray paints, there is a bonding chemical that binds the paint to the model more strongly than the usual acrylic resin.
This is why it is harder to clean chaos black off your hands than say, leadbelcher.
This bonding compound is not present in the other cans.
Priming readies a model for the basecoat, as paint sticks much more easily to primer than to naked plastic.

The basecoat is the first colour you intend to work from, so this would be macragge blue if you were painting ultramarines or caliban green for dark angels.

When Duncan paints, he has a primed (chaos black) and basecoated (coloured spray) model.
They don't waste time in the videos priming and basecoating a model with a can, there are seperate videos dedicated to those processes.

You can also read this from GW's spray description:
Mechanicus Standard Grey is designed for basecoating all Citadel miniatures. When sprayed over an undercoat, it's a fast way to get a uniform base of colour onto your models.

Whilst this is all correct, there have been quite a few of Duncan's videos (don't ask me to quote which, as I have no idea) where he says you don't need to worry about undercoating and can spray macragge blue or whatever colour it is directly over the plastic. The guys in the GW stores say the same.

That's because they'll be aware of the existence of the likes of Army Painter and even car brands like Halford who actually have coloured primers and are trying to avoid customers going and buying from someone else.

No one's going to ruin a model or paintjob by not priming, but it is considered best practice for precisely the reasons Demon Jelly Baby has outlined.

Thanks to everyone for the replies.

So I did a small bit of experimenting.

Caliban Green spray straight on model:
Seems fine and bonded well, scratched the model with my nail and the paint stayed on. I had to really press with my nail and scrap for the paint to chip.

Caliban Green spray over Chaos Black primer:
Same as above, some models did look smother though. The colour seems to be the same also. I thought it might be a bit lighter.

Caliban Green spray over Vallejo - Surface Primer Grey:
I'm convinced I'm doing something wrong with this primer or airbrush, as it comes off with my nail with little pressure. I tired two models, one with some flow improver and one without (just straight primer), same thing with both. The primer comes off really easily.

TL : DR
I'll be priming with Chaos black and then either spraying or brushing my basecoat on.

Thanks again for all the replies.

-Jim

As someone who've painted metal, resin and plastic models and have had some last literally over a decade in the sun at times, here's my opinion:

A basecoat of Primer is not NECESSARY, as GW's plastics and even Pewter can take paint fairly well. True, the paintjob won't last forever, but I've had models that hit the 4 year mark with their paintjobs fairly intact even under heavy play. The key is to find a good varnish to go over it. However a primer does enhance longevity, but we're talking on the scale of years, not days here. If you just start painting without priming, it's not like your model will shed it's skin within a week. For someone like me (who often strips models as I get bored of paintjobs) this hasn't been an issue at all, but it is something to consider.

Ideally, you'll want a colored primer from a good brand. Automotive primers I find tend to go on a bit thick, and some of them contain chemicals that can sometimes slightly melt the models if you apply it too thick. Hence, if you can't find a good suitable primer and your hand is not steady, going over with a colored spray is perfectly acceptable. Note that Chaos Black "primer" was basically just standard spraypaint, not actual primer, for a long time. I have no idea on Abaddon Black though, as I've never used it.

If you do have a steady hand though, I would recommend going over with a black or white primer. While Greys can take all kinds of colors easier, Black and White primers can give your final paintjob a certain look; Black will darken all of the paint you use making them look a lot more grittier and "realistic", plus it hides areas that you can't reach with your brush in shadow. White instead brightens colors applied to it and can make some of the brighter colors, like Red, Blue and Yellow, much more richer when painted over white. I tend to prefer Black whenever possible as it gives a decently professional look with a minimum of effort (especially when painting darker, cooler colors or straight up metallics), but people who prime white can get really dazzling results.

A quick note on Vallejo surface primer, it need a lot longer than other primers to cure, 2-3 days, rather than hours.

What If I told you that plain spray can do the same job as a costly primer

DaemonJellybaby wrote:
A quick note on Vallejo surface primer, it need a lot longer than other primers to cure, 2-3 days, rather than hours.

I gave it roughly 36 hours before applying the basecoat. But I did add the flow improver. So that might be adding to the issue.

The model I primed Sunday had no flow improver added, I'll see how that guy is in a day or so. Thanks.