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So as I humbly understand it, Dreadnoughts can have a Pilot. But, they also have a machinespirit, as all mechanical forms in the dark future. And some say it is just armour that can not function independent from its user since it is not akin to a Land Raider. Which can fight with or without. Though some also argue it has a machinespirit that is quite advanced. More so than say a laz pistol that definitively needs an operator. That it is likened a mix between cybernetics and automaton (AKA Robots) and the machine part can act and even move independently without a driver. Though with a more limited fighting skill.
What say Dakka to empty Dreadnoughts still being able to fight?
Come into my web, said the spider to the fly.
Come rest your wings, and let us talk eye to eye.
For I am a spider, and you are the fly. Now that you are here, let us sit, and say hi.
But I have have no morsel to share, nor anything to eat. But wait, what is that stickiness upon your feet.
Ah now I have you, now I can eat. Now I can enjoy you, or store you as meat.
For I am the spider, and you are the fly. How else could it have gone, between one such as you, and one such as I.
It might be able to slowly move & engage targets at range, but anything more than that is heresy, as Abominable Intelligence is banned.
While not exactly machine spirits, there are a few examples of Iron Hands fighting on once their flesh has died - a dreadnought in 'Iron Soul', and a Deathwatch Marine in 'A Sanctuary of Wyrms'.
So you would agree that it's not beyond the realms of a Chapter having a dozen suits in store awaiting a hero that can be brought out in a dire crisis to hold the line. May I go so far as to envisioning a Forge Master having a small retinue at his back that for arguments sake act as his servitor heavy squad or alike?
Come into my web, said the spider to the fly.
Come rest your wings, and let us talk eye to eye.
For I am a spider, and you are the fly. Now that you are here, let us sit, and say hi.
But I have have no morsel to share, nor anything to eat. But wait, what is that stickiness upon your feet.
Ah now I have you, now I can eat. Now I can enjoy you, or store you as meat.
For I am the spider, and you are the fly. How else could it have gone, between one such as you, and one such as I.
The only machine-spirits powerful enough to act purely autonomously are the robots of the Legio Cybernetica, and even their 'autonomy' is more akin to zombies marching forwards and smashing things until they get to the objective, and then milling around waiting for orders/input.
In terms of cybernetic robots standing guard, I wouldn't be surprised if a few chapters that are particularly chummy with the Admech would have a few Robot sentinels in their Fortress monasteries (although probably manned by servitors than actual AI).
As for dreadnoughts moving on their own, I doubt it. The "machine spirit" is sometimes taken as a metaphor, kinda like how some cultures might interpret an inanimate object (or plantlife) as having a "spirit" like a sentient being. Some vehicles have rudimentary AI, like the Land Raider or anything with the "Power of the Machine Spirit" rule, but those are special cases. Like a Land Speeder can be said to have a machine spirit that will cause it to malfunction if you don't take care of it enough, but it won't suddenly start hovering and shooting people without a crew.
That and the "machine spirits" mentioned generally have the intelligence of a squirrel unless there's an operator nearby.
Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!
Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.
When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do.
So as I humbly understand it, Dreadnoughts can have a Pilot. But, they also have a machinespirit, as all mechanical forms in the dark future. And some say it is just armour that can not function independent from its user since it is not akin to a Land Raider. Which can fight with or without. Though some also argue it has a machinespirit that is quite advanced. More so than say a laz pistol that definitively needs an operator. That it is likened a mix between cybernetics and automaton (AKA Robots) and the machine part can act and even move independently without a driver. Though with a more limited fighting skill.
What say Dakka to empty Dreadnoughts still being able to fight?
In 40k it is heavily implied that AI is actually demonic in nature. The name Machine Spirit is not a euphemism for people who dont understand it, it's the most workable term for immortal, otherworldly intelligence that doesnt make sense in physical science. A machine spirit that is smart enough to run a dreadnaught at full efficiency would essentially be a daemon with it's own will. A simpler 'dumber' AI that can only drive standard paths and target the closest target at poor BS(like machine spirits use to function) either isnt a daemon or is a daemon that is so dumb that it lacks will or ability to rebel.
In 25k the Men of Iron rebelled. It is suggested that Chaos brought about the rebellion.
In 29k big E banned research into AI, but some of it was still going on
In 30k HH virtually the entire Legio Cybernetica and portions of the Mechanicum that studied AI formed the Dark Mechanicus
Since then the Ad Mech has forbade creation of thinking machines. The solution is to use human brains as the CPU of any system. Keeping the thought processes firmly grounded in the material realm and mortal.
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
Themanwiththeplan wrote: So you would agree that it's not beyond the realms of a Chapter having a dozen suits in store awaiting a hero that can be brought out in a dire crisis to hold the line.
It's normally the other way round - there's a waiting list of injured Marines waiting for a Dreadnought to become available so they can serve the Chapter again.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: In terms of cybernetic robots standing guard, I wouldn't be surprised if a few chapters that are particularly chummy with the Admech would have a few Robot sentinels in their Fortress monasteries (although probably manned by servitors than actual AI).
'Eye of Medusa' introduced the Iron Hands' Helfathers - who definitely fall into that category...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/31 21:39:28
As for machine spirits being daemons... I don't think so.
I think the reason Chaos caused the Machine rebellion is that Chaos caused Psykers, the Machines saw the threat they represented, and started rounding them up. When the (clueless) rest of Humanity said 'hey you can't just round people up!' they tried to switch the machines off and ... well you know the rest.
As for your point about the Legio Cybernetica: it's a Catch-22. They rebelled either because 1) Machines are demons or 2) they were essentially regarded as demons by the rest of the Imperium anyway, and as such the Legio Cybernetica felt less committed to the Imperial cause. It's worth noting that a not-insignificant number remained loyalist as well.
AI is absolutely possible without being demonic in nature (citation: Tau AI, which is pretty damn smart, including the ability to emulate a living soldier). Machines are not demons.
Unit1126PLL wrote: The only machine-spirits powerful enough to act purely autonomously are the robots of the Legio Cybernetica, and even their 'autonomy' is more akin to zombies marching forwards and smashing things until they get to the objective, and then milling around waiting for orders/input.
That or the battle titans systems.
But they a different level of tech, and there spirits are greatly more powerful and can break weak minds who try to command them.
Only the most advanced systems can operate alone and unless like DAOT grade, will bot be as effective as a manned machine.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
'The Machine Spirit' is sometimes a metaphor, and sometimes perhaps something more. The Space Wolves sometimes feed their landraiders a big elk, and it is gone the next morning. (SW Codex 5th edition.) A bit like leaving cookies out for santa. It is hard to say what is myth and what is not.
Loyalist Humans do not have the technology or the will to make an AI.
Prior to 5th (6th?) edition Necrons it was implied that one of the C'tans sleeps on Mars. The AI of man is somehow tied to his consiusness/will and we will all be screwed if he awakens. Read into that what you want, but it goes beyond basic coding. In the non canon / canon dawn of war 1 you can in one of the exspansions go into the necron base. Here they will taunt you doing scripted events where they take over you tanks, heavaly implying that human machines are tied to some form of C'tan. Back then C'tans also where somehow not incarnations of bigger consepts, but bigger consepts themselves. It was never very clear and always implied. I doubt it is stil cannon as the 4 ctans are very much imprisioned? I don't know what they where, but they are not cannon any more I believe.
Other examples of AI's can be found in 40K. Necron machines. Tau Battle Drones. Demon engines, here the AI is a demon. Very rudamentary machines.
Almost all human AI was at some point a machine that got servo-skulled.
It's important to note that Dreadnaughts are not simply war machines - they are a way to allow the best and brightest of a Chapter to serve after an injury that should have removed them from battle forever. They are more than any vehicle in the Chapter's forces, even the most Venerable Land Raiders, could ever be - they're brothers in arms. They're valued more for the Marine inside than the firepower they bring (although that is nice).
That being said, it's not impossible a Chapter with close ties to Mars might outfit an ancient and venerable Dreadnaught chassis with a Machine Spirit worthy of it, or that such an ancient machine couldn't develop one on its own. But it's unlikely to ever see service with a Marine.
Since we know that dreadnought forms were fighting in the unification wars and possibly before in the techno-barbarian conflicts on earth. It could give a fair amount of time for a machine to develop an independent 'spirit'. No?
Is there any fluff or canon on that Jon Garrett? Sounds an interesting concept to explore.
Come into my web, said the spider to the fly.
Come rest your wings, and let us talk eye to eye.
For I am a spider, and you are the fly. Now that you are here, let us sit, and say hi.
But I have have no morsel to share, nor anything to eat. But wait, what is that stickiness upon your feet.
Ah now I have you, now I can eat. Now I can enjoy you, or store you as meat.
For I am the spider, and you are the fly. How else could it have gone, between one such as you, and one such as I.
Yes Bjon is the oldest dreadnought 'alive' is correct. But what I'm asking about are empty dreadnoughts.
Come into my web, said the spider to the fly.
Come rest your wings, and let us talk eye to eye.
For I am a spider, and you are the fly. Now that you are here, let us sit, and say hi.
But I have have no morsel to share, nor anything to eat. But wait, what is that stickiness upon your feet.
Ah now I have you, now I can eat. Now I can enjoy you, or store you as meat.
For I am the spider, and you are the fly. How else could it have gone, between one such as you, and one such as I.
Well it's always nice to ask people their thoughts as then you get a more complete idea instead of your own narrow scope on the matter. Plus this is for fluff of my Chapter.
Also they are not toys. They are model figurines.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/01 12:39:23
Come into my web, said the spider to the fly.
Come rest your wings, and let us talk eye to eye.
For I am a spider, and you are the fly. Now that you are here, let us sit, and say hi.
But I have have no morsel to share, nor anything to eat. But wait, what is that stickiness upon your feet.
Ah now I have you, now I can eat. Now I can enjoy you, or store you as meat.
For I am the spider, and you are the fly. How else could it have gone, between one such as you, and one such as I.
I do think a lot of people misunderstand what a 'machine spirit' actually is. Basically, it's a shamanistic anthropomorphisation of a wide variety of poorly understood technological mechanisms, each instance ascribed to the same force due to basically non-existent understanding. Each instance of 'machine spirit' could be any one of these things, with no clear indicator as to which one it actually is.
1. Simple mechanisms that humanity doesn't understand so are ascribed anthropomorphic traits and rituals of appeasement, some of which are based on ritualised maintenance procedures (Lasgun's jammed, so 'appease its machine spirit' but anointing it with 'holy oils' which actually just lubricates the bit that's jammed).
2. Fragments of partially-aware code baked into STC designs by Tech Priests who wouldn't know an AI if it slapped them in the dendrites
3. The Imperium doesn't use computers for complex machinery, it uses 'cogitators' which are mind-wiped human brains. A 'machine spirit' could be the vestiges of the poor human mind that was (perhaps incompletely' wiped and interred into a piece of machinery
4. The sneaking tendrils of the Void Dragon, imprisoned on Mars and playing a long game of manipulating technology in order to manufacture its escape
The closest a (non-Heretek) Tech Priest could get to 'putting a machine spirit into something' is to stick a cogitator into it, at which point you've basically got a Dreadnought anyway. When a Tech Priest says that something is due to 'a Machine Spirit' what they basically mean is 'I have no idea why on earth it did that, so it must be the work of spirits'.
Ynneadwraith wrote: I do think a lot of people misunderstand what a 'machine spirit' actually is. Basically, it's a shamanistic anthropomorphisation of a wide variety of poorly understood technological mechanisms, each instance ascribed to the same force due to basically non-existent understanding. Each instance of 'machine spirit' could be any one of these things, with no clear indicator as to which one it actually is.
1. Simple mechanisms that humanity doesn't understand so are ascribed anthropomorphic traits and rituals of appeasement, some of which are based on ritualised maintenance procedures (Lasgun's jammed, so 'appease its machine spirit' but anointing it with 'holy oils' which actually just lubricates the bit that's jammed).
2. Fragments of partially-aware code baked into STC designs by Tech Priests who wouldn't know an AI if it slapped them in the dendrites
3. The Imperium doesn't use computers for complex machinery, it uses 'cogitators' which are mind-wiped human brains. A 'machine spirit' could be the vestiges of the poor human mind that was (perhaps incompletely' wiped and interred into a piece of machinery
4. The sneaking tendrils of the Void Dragon, imprisoned on Mars and playing a long game of manipulating technology in order to manufacture its escape
The closest a (non-Heretek) Tech Priest could get to 'putting a machine spirit into something' is to stick a cogitator into it, at which point you've basically got a Dreadnought anyway. When a Tech Priest says that something is due to 'a Machine Spirit' what they basically mean is 'I have no idea why on earth it did that, so it must be the work of spirits'.
All very true.
Would then an Astartes Chapter use a dreadnought without Space Marine inside or an implanted cogitator?
Come into my web, said the spider to the fly.
Come rest your wings, and let us talk eye to eye.
For I am a spider, and you are the fly. Now that you are here, let us sit, and say hi.
But I have have no morsel to share, nor anything to eat. But wait, what is that stickiness upon your feet.
Ah now I have you, now I can eat. Now I can enjoy you, or store you as meat.
For I am the spider, and you are the fly. How else could it have gone, between one such as you, and one such as I.
As far as I can tell, a Dread without an Astartes/implanted cogitator is inanimate, but that's just my interpretation. I tend to lean on the harder side of things like that with basically all instances of the machine spirit falling into the 'ignorant humans don't understand anything beyond basic machinery' thing.
What's your backstory as to why your Chapter has had to resort to using pilot-less Dreads? That's the other half of the believability thing. Dreads are a rare resource, whereas suitable pilots are probably shockingly frequent given how heavy casualties are in the 41st millennium. A chapter has maybe a dozen Dreads, and probably has at least a dozen casualties in every engagement they undertake.
What's the idea for why they're using pilot-less ones?
Ynneadwraith wrote: I do think a lot of people misunderstand what a 'machine spirit' actually is. Basically, it's a shamanistic anthropomorphisation of a wide variety of poorly understood technological mechanisms, each instance ascribed to the same force due to basically non-existent understanding. Each instance of 'machine spirit' could be any one of these things, with no clear indicator as to which one it actually is.
1. Simple mechanisms that humanity doesn't understand so are ascribed anthropomorphic traits and rituals of appeasement, some of which are based on ritualised maintenance procedures (Lasgun's jammed, so 'appease its machine spirit' but anointing it with 'holy oils' which actually just lubricates the bit that's jammed).
2. Fragments of partially-aware code baked into STC designs by Tech Priests who wouldn't know an AI if it slapped them in the dendrites
3. The Imperium doesn't use computers for complex machinery, it uses 'cogitators' which are mind-wiped human brains. A 'machine spirit' could be the vestiges of the poor human mind that was (perhaps incompletely' wiped and interred into a piece of machinery
4. The sneaking tendrils of the Void Dragon, imprisoned on Mars and playing a long game of manipulating technology in order to manufacture its escape
The closest a (non-Heretek) Tech Priest could get to 'putting a machine spirit into something' is to stick a cogitator into it, at which point you've basically got a Dreadnought anyway. When a Tech Priest says that something is due to 'a Machine Spirit' what they basically mean is 'I have no idea why on earth it did that, so it must be the work of spirits'.
All very true.
Would then an Astartes Chapter use a dreadnought without Space Marine inside or an implanted cogitator?
During the Heresy the Astartes did make use of Battle-Automata, so I don't think there's any basic fundamental objection to the idea, but the Mechanicum seems to be keeping Cortex-bots on a tighter leash in the 41st Milennium and the only Legions that built their own were the Iron Warriors and the Thousand Sons.
So I suppose they might, but tradition and the lack of cooperation from Mars probably means it isn't a widespread practice in the modern era.
Ynneadwraith wrote: As far as I can tell, a Dread without an Astartes/implanted cogitator is inanimate, but that's just my interpretation. I tend to lean on the harder side of things like that with basically all instances of the machine spirit falling into the 'ignorant humans don't understand anything beyond basic machinery' thing.
What's your backstory as to why your Chapter has had to resort to using pilot-less Dreads? That's the other half of the believability thing. Dreads are a rare resource, whereas suitable pilots are probably shockingly frequent given how heavy casualties are in the 41st millennium. A chapter has maybe a dozen Dreads, and probably has at least a dozen casualties in every engagement they undertake.
What's the idea for why they're using pilot-less ones?
My back story for my chapter is here on dakka in the fan-fiction. It is desperate indeed the situation. Plus the timeline this happens in is post scouring. So tech wise (not including tech lost in the HH) The Imperium is still pretty advanced and has not devolved into the oily oils and prayer stage as yet. Though the soul of the Chapter is up for contention between the Imperial Truth and Lectodivinicus at this stage so it's not too far in the future coming.
As for using pilotless dreads. My Chapter is relatively new (a few thousand year old) and has not had a marine fall with the right stuff to occupy one as yet. But the Chapter does have strong links to mars and means their armoury does hold maybe a dozen of these war machines in storage on stand by.
Ynneadwraith wrote: I do think a lot of people misunderstand what a 'machine spirit' actually is. Basically, it's a shamanistic anthropomorphisation of a wide variety of poorly understood technological mechanisms, each instance ascribed to the same force due to basically non-existent understanding. Each instance of 'machine spirit' could be any one of these things, with no clear indicator as to which one it actually is.
1. Simple mechanisms that humanity doesn't understand so are ascribed anthropomorphic traits and rituals of appeasement, some of which are based on ritualised maintenance procedures (Lasgun's jammed, so 'appease its machine spirit' but anointing it with 'holy oils' which actually just lubricates the bit that's jammed).
2. Fragments of partially-aware code baked into STC designs by Tech Priests who wouldn't know an AI if it slapped them in the dendrites
3. The Imperium doesn't use computers for complex machinery, it uses 'cogitators' which are mind-wiped human brains. A 'machine spirit' could be the vestiges of the poor human mind that was (perhaps incompletely' wiped and interred into a piece of machinery
4. The sneaking tendrils of the Void Dragon, imprisoned on Mars and playing a long game of manipulating technology in order to manufacture its escape
The closest a (non-Heretek) Tech Priest could get to 'putting a machine spirit into something' is to stick a cogitator into it, at which point you've basically got a Dreadnought anyway. When a Tech Priest says that something is due to 'a Machine Spirit' what they basically mean is 'I have no idea why on earth it did that, so it must be the work of spirits'.
All very true.
Would then an Astartes Chapter use a dreadnought without Space Marine inside or an implanted cogitator?
During the Heresy the Astartes did make use of Battle-Automata, so I don't think there's any basic fundamental objection to the idea, but the Mechanicum seems to be keeping Cortex-bots on a tighter leash in the 41st Milennium and the only Legions that built their own were the Iron Warriors and the Thousand Sons.
So I suppose they might, but tradition and the lack of cooperation from Mars probably means it isn't a widespread practice in the modern era.
Indeed. The Thousand Sons had a fair few that were controlled by crystals (if I'm remembering correctly) but not sure on the Iron warriors TBH.
So what your saying is a chapter with close links to Mars would have the opportunity to have a dread like cybernetic?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/01 14:00:47
Come into my web, said the spider to the fly.
Come rest your wings, and let us talk eye to eye.
For I am a spider, and you are the fly. Now that you are here, let us sit, and say hi.
But I have have no morsel to share, nor anything to eat. But wait, what is that stickiness upon your feet.
Ah now I have you, now I can eat. Now I can enjoy you, or store you as meat.
For I am the spider, and you are the fly. How else could it have gone, between one such as you, and one such as I.
Perturabo (Iron Warrior's Primarch) had his Iron Guard, which were, for all intents and purposes, battle robots that formed his elite retinue. As far as I know they were no more magical than the rhinos his troops rode in (Being essentially another variant on the Ad-mech made battle automatas).
The Thousand Sons' statues were a mix of magic and tech if I remember correctly; requiring a sorcerer to awaken them but can function autonomously.
As for pilotless Dreadnoughts specifically, in theory it is possible. However given that Dreadnought chassis range from "no longer capable of being made" to being "almost as hard as a warlord titan to make", most chapters, even young ones, wouldn't go about wiring it up to be a glorified battle servitor. Actual Battle Servitors would be more in line with that, and it wouldn't be out of the question that certain techmarines would heavily arm their servitors for war when they lack heavy weapon platforms like dreadnoughts (the Kataphron Battle servitors are basically mini-dreadnoughts anyways. it's not a stretch that a Techmarine particularly close to a Forge World might be "granted" some under his control).
Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!
Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.
When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do.
Themanwiththeplan wrote: Since we know that dreadnought forms were fighting in the unification wars and possibly before in the techno-barbarian conflicts on earth. It could give a fair amount of time for a machine to develop an independent 'spirit'. No?
Is there any fluff or canon on that Jon Garrett? Sounds an interesting concept to explore.
Not that I am aware of, beyond the various 'older machine getting odd personality quirks' that crops up in a lot of 40k stories. It was purely me thinking out loud, as it were.
I remember reading a BL short.
A SW came across a damaged Iron Hands dread. It was asking for assistance, but there was no pilot in it. Just electronics where the pilot should have been.
The SW killed it for its heresy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/02 06:25:10
the ancient wrote: I remember reading a BL short.
A SW came across a damaged Iron Hands dread. It was asking for assistance, but there was no pilot in it. Just electronics where the pilot should have been.
The SW killed it for its heresy.
That's 'Iron Soul', and didn't the dread kill the SW?
Themanwiththeplan wrote: Since we know that dreadnought forms were fighting in the unification wars and possibly before in the techno-barbarian conflicts on earth. It could give a fair amount of time for a machine to develop an independent 'spirit'. No?
Is there any fluff or canon on that Jon Garrett? Sounds an interesting concept to explore.
Not that I am aware of, beyond the various 'older machine getting odd personality quirks' that crops up in a lot of 40k stories. It was purely me thinking out loud, as it were.
I'm sure there's a bit in 'Eye of Medusa' where a tech-priest says the knowledge in the Dreadnought is more important than the pilot.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/02 08:24:52
the ancient wrote: I remember reading a BL short.
A SW came across a damaged Iron Hands dread. It was asking for assistance, but there was no pilot in it. Just electronics where the pilot should have been.
The SW killed it for its heresy.
See I really like these ambiguous things (which all instances of the 'machine spirit' are). Was it a Dread that was self-aware? Was it a Dread with an Iron Hand Marine in it that the Space Wolves mistook for 'just electronics' given the IH's devotion to augmentation. Who knows?
It also showcases just how superstitious the IoM is, given that they purged it. Might seem like a case of grimderp on the surface, but in a universe where there's a damn good reason AI isn't allowed, and even in the present day stuff that's talking when it shouldn't probably means it's possessed, purging it is probably the most pragmatic option.
You actually get this sort of extra-superstitious response in real life situations where life is hard and death is cheap. In the past (and probably still now), the arctic conditions in which Inuit cultures lived bred a particularly strong aversion to stuff that seemed out of place (in the arctic, if something is different on a particular day, it probably means you're going to die because of it). To the point that when the Norse first made contact (with what probably would have been a very beneficial trade partnership for the Inuit), they were attacked.
So, yeah, grimdark actually seems realistic in context.
Do not open the sarcophagus, brother Wolf,’ said the Dreadnought sombrely. ‘Why not?’ growled Jathrac impatiently. ‘I am not worthy of the rite.’ ‘For Russ’s sake. There are billions of voydwyrms out there, Radamarr. I have no time to play confessor. Let’s get you flasked. ’‘No!’ shouted the Dreadnought, its vox so loud that dust shook from the vaulted ceiling above. Jathrac tucked the fat barrel of the plasma pistol under the lip of the sarcophagus. He shielded his face to avoid the blast of energy and the subsequent burst of amniotic steam that would leave the Dreadnought’s crippled pilot naked inside. Gritting his teeth, he pulled the trigger. The sarcophagus flew open with a deafening bang. Nothing came out but a blast of warm, stale air. Jathrac sniffed once, nose and forehead wrinkled in confusion. His horror mounted as he turned back to the yawning sarcophagus that had swung open before him. The Dreadnought’s interior contained a mass of wires, a few pitted bone cogs… and nothing else. ‘What in the name of Russ?’ ‘Expediency,’ said the Dreadnought, its vox-tone flat. Abomination!’ shouted the Wolf Priest, his plasma pistol whipping round with a whine of recharging power cells. Suddenly the vault went pitch black. There was a whirr, a crunch of ceramite, and then silence.
The dreadnought body is not the most advanced part, its a tgr heavy duty life support and systems to keep its marine alive.
So building the armour shells and guns but outfitted with a basic machine core linked to a techpreist. They become like heavy duty servitor bodies.
Remote control "dreadnoughts".
Sure not the most advanced , or as capable.
But they could exist.
Ultra heresey though!
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
Thanks for all your replies. You have gave me much to think about.
Come into my web, said the spider to the fly.
Come rest your wings, and let us talk eye to eye.
For I am a spider, and you are the fly. Now that you are here, let us sit, and say hi.
But I have have no morsel to share, nor anything to eat. But wait, what is that stickiness upon your feet.
Ah now I have you, now I can eat. Now I can enjoy you, or store you as meat.
For I am the spider, and you are the fly. How else could it have gone, between one such as you, and one such as I.
Interesting place for me to bring up Jeremy Clarkson but in "Love the Beast" he talks about cars having souls and non car people not understanding or recognising it.
I think the "Machine Spirit" is just an extension of the way people feel about their machines, especially in a religeous culture where people have been working with the same equipment for a hundred years but never actually maintained it themselves - they know its flaws and gremlins but don't actually know how it works so they impose a personality onto it to explain its idiosyncracies.
Even mechanics who know exactly how things work impose personalities onto their cars because they can't explain why they fell in love with their gremlin filled piece of junk and will happily spend more money working on it than it would cost to upgrade every few years.
Bjorn might be a good example of Dreads not having any kind of actual AI or spirit. The oldest "living" Dread is in the most recent Dreadnought style of armour, it is possible and considering the story kind of likely his last Dread unit was busted to the point where nothing could be salvaged but since his "relics" seem to be of the unique rather than the ancient variety, I doubt he has any real attachment to his dreadnought units...you know...aside from being literally attached to them.
I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go.
