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Just read this fluff article over at BOLS, I've never heard about this cold War before but in it, it seems the Grey Knights just get their asses handed to them by the space Wolves. Almost just reads like Grimnar swats the GK Grand Master aside like a fly.

Is this actually canon? Am I wrong for expecting the GKs to dish it out a bit better than they did?

 grimz wrote:
Just read this fluff article over at BOLS, I've never heard about this cold War before but in it, it seems the Grey Knights just get their asses handed to them by the space Wolves. Almost just reads like Grimnar swats the GK Grand Master aside like a fly.

Is this actually canon? Am I wrong for expecting the GKs to dish it out a bit better than they did?

You are not wrong, but the thing about Imperial vs Imperial battles is that it entirely depends on which side is supposed to look more badass. The GK, in theory, should be able to wipe the floor with the Space Wolves (though Grimnar is a certified badass motherfether that is true) simply through superior arms and equipment, plus Inquisitorial support (which means everything). However, as Space Wolves were the winning side they had to be made to look badass.


40k stories are different to most other fiction writing in that the end result is usually known. For example, if writing a story featuring a known character such as a Primarch, the writer has the outcome (Primarch dies or survives this battle) before he has the story. Or if its a major event in history (such as the Isstvaan Massecre for example: We know in the relevant novel what is coming and what the outcome will be. There are no surprises like "This fan favourite character slays Kharn with a clever feint in a heroic ending" because we know Kharn is still around and kicking in M41). The narrative simply has to reflect that.

In this case, we know the Space Wolves survive the war and come out on top, they don't lose anyone significant such as Grimnar, Ragnar, Bjorn, etc. So when Grimnar teleports on board the ship, he MUST come out the victor. Being 40k, victories are not narrow. They are either crushing defeats or resounding victories. There is no inbetween.

I'm not sure if there was ever a Black Library book on it but the Cold War is detailed in the Space Wolves' 7th ed codex so it is canon.

At the time of the Cold War the Space Wolves were a force to be reckoned with - Twelve Great Companies of between five hundred to a thousand Marines each, with honest psycic power counter measures like deny the witch boosts rather than just an oddball psychic discipline. They were also packing a Legion supply of Cruisers and Destroyers, an honest fleet rather than one or two ships.

The Grey Knights on the other hand are a Codex compliant chapter so no more than a thousand Marines, a grand total of one Codex compliant successor chapter to call on so two thousand Marines.

Even if we say the Wolves honestly lost the Wolf Brothers completely and average the Wolves to five hundred Marines per Great Company that's still an easy three times the Grey Knights and their successor chapter together.

It's also hard for the Grey Knights to call in re-enforcements since the Grey Knights technically don't exist.

Being part of the Inquisition doesn't help the Grey Knights' cause either. The Inquisition are more hated than the Space Wolves and that is saying something.

Sw has a suppposed bad/playfully bad relationship with the DE.

But SW really has a bad relationship with grey knights, since the armagedon war. Sisters of Battle and Inquesition are not allowed on Fenris if I remember corectly.

SW have a bad relationship with many, they do not follow the teachings of Guliman Codex either.

Some of their people turns into where wolves, slowly or periodicaly. They might be chaos imune, or they might just be the damnest of all.

Supposedly the GK chapter only is codex compliant because they have only so many people who can actually pass the tests. To say they follow the codex is kinda funny.

 Quickjager wrote:
Supposedly the GK chapter only is codex compliant because they have only so many people who can actually pass the tests. To say they follow the codex is kinda funny.

They have a thousand or less marines and send extras to a successor chapter - that's compliant enough to make a point about their numbers which is pretty much the only reason I brought the Codex up at all. Speaking of their successor chapter the Exorcists play host to Daemons during their initiation to build up immunity and are still considered Codex compliant because they have less than a thousand marines.

The Space Wolves must openly use the Codex as toilet paper or something.

Exorcists aren't a successor in the normal sense; now show me a source on this "send extras to a successor chapter".

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Supposedly the GK chapter only is codex compliant because they have only so many people who can actually pass the tests. To say they follow the codex is kinda funny.

They have a thousand or less marines and send extras to a successor chapter - that's compliant enough to make a point about their numbers which is pretty much the only reason I brought the Codex up at all. Speaking of their successor chapter the Exorcists play host to Daemons during their initiation to build up immunity and are still considered Codex compliant because they have less than a thousand marines.

The Space Wolves must openly use the Codex as toilet paper or something.

This is nonsense. The GK do not exist on Imperial records and official dont have any successors. They don't have extra recruits either. Their attrition rate is rediculously low, considering they have a much lower pool of potential recruits (Psykers only) and much stricter requirements for passing (being completely and utterly incorruptible as well as all the other things Space Marines need to be, PLUS appropriate psyker training).

The Exorcists are not successors of the GK. They are RUMOURED and SPECULATED to be, but that is all. The GK have total control over their geneseed. They don't give any to Mars, and they aren't totally bidden to the Inqusition either, despite what many believe (Evidence: One of the Grand Master's role is Representative to the Inquisition, part of his job description reads " It is rare for individual battle-brothers to serve with the same Inquisitor more than once, lest either should learn too much of the other." Meaning they aren't totally beholden to the Inqusition because the Inquisition is a totally decentralised organisation with no oversight or control). The only way enough geneseed for a successor Chapter would be gathered would be if the GK purposefully gave it over. Given how secretive and protective of their chapter they are, this does not happen.


The GK have 1000 marines because they were founded as such. They were not intended to be a Legion as the Ultramarines or Space Wolves. They were founded and intended to be a Chapter of 1000. End of. They are not codex compliant in any other way: They do not take to the field as Scouts, then becomes Devastators, then Assault, then Tacticals, then Veterans and Terminators. They full train, take to the field as Terminators, then learn Power Armour, then get deployed as per their Captain's preference. They do not use Codex tactics, strategy or anything else.

The Exorcists are codex compliant. They start as scouts and move through the normal ranks of Dev, Assault, Tactical, Veteran, as with the Ultramarines and others. They follow normal Codex battle doctrine. Their deviance is having 3 Scout companies instead of 1. This doesn't break the Codex as the Scouts aren't counted in the 1000 Marine cap. They do this due to their low survival rate for Scouts, which is speculated in universe, and confirmed OOU, to involve demonic possession to make them Pseudo-blanks.

The Space Wolves are NOT codex compliant. They maintain 12 Companies instead of 10. Scouts are veterans and loners who are full Astartes, and are kept in the company. Veterans are per company. Devastators are Veterans. Assault Marines are newly promoted Neophytes, and weeded out via natural selection. The Chapter Master is also a Captain. Doctrine and tactics is extremely deviant from the codex. They openly reject the Codex in favour of their own Primarch's ideals, but "use as toilet paper," is misleading.

 grimz wrote:
Just read this fluff article over at BOLS, I've never heard about this cold War before but in it, it seems the Grey Knights just get their asses handed to them by the space Wolves. Almost just reads like Grimnar swats the GK Grand Master aside like a fly.

Started out as a cold war but it certainly became a hot one.

The Grand Master Joros was killed by Grimnar. Grimnar's weapon was out, Joros kept his sheathed during the talking. Then Grimnar killed him with a single blow. That, I can vaguely understand. I mean not really because why would you not draw your weapon if the other person has theirs out but hey, guy was an idiot.

Then the Grey knights use their Psychic powers to stop Grimnar and his men from teleporting out so the Space Wolves shoot them and teleport out.

Aaron Dembski-Bowden was the author of The Emperor's Gift, the novel that described it (and retconned it into an actual war). His prose isn't bad but he does not do the Grey Knights justice in that novel.

Dakka Wolf wrote:At the time of the Cold War the Space Wolves were a force to be reckoned with - Twelve Great Companies of between five hundred to a thousand Marines each, with honest psycic power counter measures like deny the witch boosts rather than just an oddball psychic discipline. They were also packing a Legion supply of Cruisers and Destroyers, an honest fleet rather than one or two ships.

The 7th Edition Space Wolf Codex says that the Great Companies have 500 - 1000 Space Marines in each? Retconning former numbers? Do you have a quote? Likewise on the fleet-size?

As to countering Psychic powers I'd expect Angron, Daemon Primarch of Khorne, the Ruinous Power who likes to defend his followers from cowardly Psykers, to have Grimnar beat on that score but apparently not according to ADB.

Something something Axe of Khorne Logan is a heretic blahblahblah something something.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I'm not sure if there was ever a Black Library book on it but the Cold War is detailed in the Space Wolves' 7th ed codex so it is canon.

At the time of the Cold War the Space Wolves were a force to be reckoned with - Twelve Great Companies of between five hundred to a thousand Marines each, with honest psycic power counter measures like deny the witch boosts rather than just an oddball psychic discipline. They were also packing a Legion supply of Cruisers and Destroyers, an honest fleet rather than one or two ships.

The Grey Knights on the other hand are a Codex compliant chapter so no more than a thousand Marines, a grand total of one Codex compliant successor chapter to call on so two thousand Marines.

Even if we say the Wolves honestly lost the Wolf Brothers completely and average the Wolves to five hundred Marines per Great Company that's still an easy three times the Grey Knights and their successor chapter together.

It's also hard for the Grey Knights to call in re-enforcements since the Grey Knights technically don't exist.

Being part of the Inquisition doesn't help the Grey Knights' cause either. The Inquisition are more hated than the Space Wolves and that is saying something.

This makes sense. In terms of manpower the Space Wolves exceeded the Grey Knights quite considerably. In terms of political clout, an overstrength First Founding chapter with a reputation for following through on their grudges is probably something that would give the Inquisition pause. Not necessarily stop them, but prevent them from running roughshod over them. Solid in-universe reasons why when the war heated up it was the Wolves that were still standing at the end.

I quite like thinking that there's still a bit of a cold war going on between the Grey Knights/Inquisition and the Space Wolves. The Wolves might have given them a bloody nose, but there's a reason you don't mess with the Inquisition. Requests for reinforcements tend to get...misplaced. Orders to march into unwinnable battles get...suspiciously more frequent. It's a game that the Wolves are probably ill-prepared to play.

Think of the Wolves as Robb Stark and the Inquisition as Cersi Lannister...

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

I quite like thinking that there's still a bit of a cold war going on between the Grey Knights/Inquisition and the Space Wolves. The Wolves might have given them a bloody nose, but there's a reason you don't mess with the Inquisition. Requests for reinforcements tend to get...misplaced. Orders to march into unwinnable battles get...suspiciously more frequent. It's a game that the Wolves are probably ill-prepared to play.

That and push the Inquisition far enough they can just declare you straight up traitors in defiance of the Inqusition, who speak with the Emperor's authority. The Ultramarines have enough successors and renown to go toe-to-toe with the Inqusition, but the Space Wolves have no natural allies (successors), and have likely rubbed enough Chapters and Imperial officials the wrong way that when the Inquisition puts a bounty on them, there'll be a queue of factions answering the call. Being a first founding chapter does give them some clout: But lets not forget, the Space Wolves Primarch is not renowned as the one who died fighting against Horus, he's not the one who put the Imperium back together in the wake of the Hereys, he's not the one who defended Terra against the might of the Archtraitor, and he's not the one who stood up for the little guy in a universe of post-humans and Xenos monsters. He's the one who barked when the Emperor said bark and the one who put his brother and sons to the torch, without question. Plus, there is definitely precendent for First Founding to be traitors given the whole Horus Heresy thing.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

I quite like thinking that there's still a bit of a cold war going on between the Grey Knights/Inquisition and the Space Wolves. The Wolves might have given them a bloody nose, but there's a reason you don't mess with the Inquisition. Requests for reinforcements tend to get...misplaced. Orders to march into unwinnable battles get...suspiciously more frequent. It's a game that the Wolves are probably ill-prepared to play.

That and push the Inquisition far enough they can just declare you straight up traitors in defiance of the Inqusition, who speak with the Emperor's authority. The Ultramarines have enough successors and renown to go toe-to-toe with the Inqusition, but the Space Wolves have no natural allies (successors), and have likely rubbed enough Chapters and Imperial officials the wrong way that when the Inquisition puts a bounty on them, there'll be a queue of factions answering the call. Being a first founding chapter does give them some clout: But lets not forget, the Space Wolves Primarch is not renowned as the one who died fighting against Horus, he's not the one who put the Imperium back together in the wake of the Hereys, he's not the one who defended Terra against the might of the Archtraitor, and he's not the one who stood up for the little guy in a universe of post-humans and Xenos monsters. He's the one who barked when the Emperor said bark and the one who put his brother and sons to the torch, without question. Plus, there is definitely precendent for First Founding to be traitors given the whole Horus Heresy thing.

Very well put, and a textbook example of how a big axe and a bellicose attitude doesn't get you quite as far as you'd think...

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

This makes sense. In terms of manpower the Space Wolves exceeded the Grey Knights quite considerably. In terms of political clout, an overstrength First Founding chapter with a reputation for following through on their grudges is probably something that would give the Inquisition pause. Not necessarily stop them, but prevent them from running roughshod over them. Solid in-universe reasons why when the war heated up it was the Wolves that were still standing at the end.

I quite like thinking that there's still a bit of a cold war going on between the Grey Knights/Inquisition and the Space Wolves. The Wolves might have given them a bloody nose, but there's a reason you don't mess with the Inquisition. Requests for reinforcements tend to get...misplaced. Orders to march into unwinnable battles get...suspiciously more frequent. It's a game that the Wolves are probably ill-prepared to play.

Think of the Wolves as Robb Stark and the Inquisition as Cersi Lannister...

To be fair the the Inquisitor Lord Kysnaros deliberately didn't involve further Grey Knights that he'd had around at the start. On the other hand he did bring in the entirety of the Red Hunters Chapter and had various Imperial Navy ships commandeered.

It would've been much better for the setting in my opinion if they'd kept it as a cold war like the original fluff (which had the Space Wolves pissed off at the Inquisition for killing the Imperial Guard rather than managing to save them). Instead we have open war between the Space Wolves and seemingly more than a dozen Inquisitors and the Inquisition backs down after openly getting thrashed in battle. That's my big problem with the political side. The Inquisition get beaten in open battle and run off. How much credibility and fear factor does the entire organisation lose for a lone Chapter to send them packing? Though at least after they back down the Inquisitors (other than the Fenrisian one who was always pro Wolf) remaining talk about how they next time Fenris is under attack Battlefleet Solar might be slow to respond, other asks about their geneseed etc. Still, nothing will actually come of it.

Also the battles themselves were pretty poorly written. Grimnar can run in Terminator armour and is practically immune to Psychic attacks including those from the guy who broke Angron's blade, an Inquisitor Lord is incapable of reacting before Grimnar chops up half the bridge etc.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

The Grey Knights on the other hand are a Codex compliant chapter so no more than a thousand Marines, a grand total of one Codex compliant successor chapter to call on so two thousand Marines.

The Grey Knights are not a Codex compliant chapter.

Furthermore, at the time that piece of fluff was written the GK fluff was that there were way more than a typical chapter strength of Grey Knights. It was written when the original Grey Knight codex was the current one. At the time the Grey Knights were said to number around 5k or so.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:


Also the battles themselves were pretty poorly written. Grimnar can run in Terminator armour and is practically immune to Psychic attacks including those from the guy who broke Angron's blade, an Inquisitor Lord is incapable of reacting before Grimnar chops up half the bridge etc.

Would have thought the guy who helped take down Angron, would have been able to put up some kind of a fight.

 grimz wrote:

Would have thought the guy who helped take down Angron, would have been able to put up some kind of a fight.

Whilst in Power Armour he managed to hold Grimnar's axe back for a while. That's his greatest feat against the "unkillable Jarl" who he tried to force back telekinetically but "with every iota of energy, it was no different from trying to move a mountain".

I mean another Grey Knight does floor them telekinetically but the whole thing is massively pro-Space Wolf, from the morality to actually fighting against each other.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 grimz wrote:
Just read this fluff article over at BOLS, I've never heard about this cold War before but in it, it seems the Grey Knights just get their asses handed to them by the space Wolves. Almost just reads like Grimnar swats the GK Grand Master aside like a fly.

Started out as a cold war but it certainly became a hot one.

The Grand Master Joros was killed by Grimnar. Grimnar's weapon was out, Joros kept his sheathed during the talking. Then Grimnar killed him with a single blow. That, I can vaguely understand. I mean not really because why would you not draw your weapon if the other person has theirs out but hey, guy was an idiot.

Then the Grey knights use their Psychic powers to stop Grimnar and his men from teleporting out so the Space Wolves shoot them and teleport out.

Aaron Dembski-Bowden was the author of The Emperor's Gift, the novel that described it (and retconned it into an actual war). His prose isn't bad but he does not do the Grey Knights justice in that novel.

Dakka Wolf wrote:At the time of the Cold War the Space Wolves were a force to be reckoned with - Twelve Great Companies of between five hundred to a thousand Marines each, with honest psycic power counter measures like deny the witch boosts rather than just an oddball psychic discipline. They were also packing a Legion supply of Cruisers and Destroyers, an honest fleet rather than one or two ships.

The 7th Edition Space Wolf Codex says that the Great Companies have 500 - 1000 Space Marines in each? Retconning former numbers? Do you have a quote? Likewise on the fleet-size?

As to countering Psychic powers I'd expect Angron, Daemon Primarch of Khorne, the Ruinous Power who likes to defend his followers from cowardly Psykers, to have Grimnar beat on that score but apparently not according to ADB.

There is no quote for a hard number just a comment dropped in a book about the first war for Armageddon saying the Wolves have recovered their numbers since the fate of the Wolf Brothers.
Admittedly I have no clue about the Wolves' numbers during the Second Founding but half of ten thousand is five thousand, divided by twelve equals an average of four hundred and sixteen in each Company, assuming none of the Wolf Brothers survived the Second Founding to be brought back into the Space Wolves' ranks being a comment worthy growth always led me to assume five hundred in each Company wasn't a stretch.
This is a pre-Armageddon comment so their numbers were probably thinned afterwards, equally probable for the Grey Knights and it is entirely possible the Wolves were never quite that high to begin with but two or three Space Wolves to every one Grey Knight if they're at two thousand which is just adding their "rumoured" successor chapter Exorcists into the Grey Knight's supposedly non Codex compliant number making them double Codex permitted numbers - should satisfy "Way more".
Two or three to one is reason enough for the whole thing to not go beyond a cold war for several months.

Not really... the Inquisition has what? The Minotaurs, Red Hunters, Red Scorpions. Three Space Marine chapters in their corner.

EDIT: Mino answer to High Lords forgot that.

If it helps with the size of the Space Wolves, Ragnars Great Company numbers 188 according to the 7th ed codex

Edit- according to the Champions of Fenris supplement Logan's Great Company numbers 200

 statu wrote:
If it helps with the size of the Space Wolves, Ragnars Great Company numbers 188 according to the 7th ed codex

Edit- according to the Champions of Fenris supplement Logan's Great Company numbers 200

and those are said to be the two biggest. so we can assume a size of no bigger then 12*200 marines at maximum strength.

 statu wrote:
If it helps with the size of the Space Wolves, Ragnars Great Company numbers 188 according to the 7th ed codex

Edit- according to the Champions of Fenris supplement Logan's Great Company numbers 200

According to the 7th ed Space Wolves Codex there is a solid five hundred years and at least three civil wars involving the Space Wolves between the end of the First War of Armageddon and Ragnar becoming a Wolf Lord, interestingly the Months of Shame was also a six year long event.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

This makes sense. In terms of manpower the Space Wolves exceeded the Grey Knights quite considerably. In terms of political clout, an overstrength First Founding chapter with a reputation for following through on their grudges is probably something that would give the Inquisition pause. Not necessarily stop them, but prevent them from running roughshod over them. Solid in-universe reasons why when the war heated up it was the Wolves that were still standing at the end.

I quite like thinking that there's still a bit of a cold war going on between the Grey Knights/Inquisition and the Space Wolves. The Wolves might have given them a bloody nose, but there's a reason you don't mess with the Inquisition. Requests for reinforcements tend to get...misplaced. Orders to march into unwinnable battles get...suspiciously more frequent. It's a game that the Wolves are probably ill-prepared to play.

Think of the Wolves as Robb Stark and the Inquisition as Cersi Lannister...

To be fair the the Inquisitor Lord Kysnaros deliberately didn't involve further Grey Knights that he'd had around at the start. On the other hand he did bring in the entirety of the Red Hunters Chapter and had various Imperial Navy ships commandeered.

It would've been much better for the setting in my opinion if they'd kept it as a cold war like the original fluff (which had the Space Wolves pissed off at the Inquisition for killing the Imperial Guard rather than managing to save them). Instead we have open war between the Space Wolves and seemingly more than a dozen Inquisitors and the Inquisition backs down after openly getting thrashed in battle. That's my big problem with the political side. The Inquisition get beaten in open battle and run off. How much credibility and fear factor does the entire organisation lose for a lone Chapter to send them packing? Though at least after they back down the Inquisitors (other than the Fenrisian one who was always pro Wolf) remaining talk about how they next time Fenris is under attack Battlefleet Solar might be slow to respond, other asks about their geneseed etc. Still, nothing will actually come of it.

Also the battles themselves were pretty poorly written. Grimnar can run in Terminator armour and is practically immune to Psychic attacks including those from the guy who broke Angron's blade, an Inquisitor Lord is incapable of reacting before Grimnar chops up half the bridge etc.

It is important to keep in keep in mind that the inquisition isn't a unified organisation or anything like that. There are only individual inquisitors. The Inquisition didnt back down, when Kysnaros died there simply wasn't anyone left who was interested in continuing the conflict (also, I remember reading somewhere that Kysnaros wasn't really liked by his peers)
The other thing to keep in mind is that Grimnar easily is one of the oldest and most powerful warriors in the Imperium. He should be wiping the floor with (almost) anyone, especially if he gets the drop on someone.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:


There is no quote for a hard number just a comment dropped in a book about the first war for Armageddon saying the Wolves have recovered their numbers since the fate of the Wolf Brothers.
Admittedly I have no clue about the Wolves' numbers during the Second Founding but half of ten thousand is five thousand, divided by twelve equals an average of four hundred and sixteen in each Company, assuming none of the Wolf Brothers survived the Second Founding to be brought back into the Space Wolves' ranks being a comment worthy growth always led me to assume five hundred in each Company wasn't a stretch.
This is a pre-Armageddon comment so their numbers were probably thinned afterwards, equally probable for the Grey Knights and it is entirely possible the Wolves were never quite that high to begin with but two or three Space Wolves to every one Grey Knight if they're at two thousand which is just adding their "rumoured" successor chapter Exorcists into the Grey Knight's supposedly non Codex compliant number making them double Codex permitted numbers - should satisfy "Way more".
Two or three to one is reason enough for the whole thing to not go beyond a cold war for several months.

Well that's delightfully vague. Still, the times numbers have ever been given for the largest Great Companies they've been just over 200. I don't really see the Space Wolves as running around 6000-12000 Marines.

The Grey Knights weren't being used at full strength during the "Months of Shame". The Space Wolves definitely outnumbered the ones being used. The Inquisitor wasn't just using Grey Knights. Nor does it explain the Grey Knights appalling performance when actually fighting the Space Wolves. And didn't stay a cold war. It became hot when the two sides were fighting in open warfare.

According to the 7th ed Space Wolves Codex there is a solid five hundred years and at least three civil wars involving the Space Wolves between the end of the First War of Armageddon and Ragnar becoming a Wolf Lord, interestingly the Months of Shame was also a six year long event.

Still no figures to suggest the Great Companies were anything approaching Chapter strength.

Iron_Captain wrote:It is important to keep in keep in mind that the inquisition isn't a unified organisation or anything like that. There are only individual inquisitors. The Inquisition didnt back down, when Kysnaros died there simply wasn't anyone left who was interested in continuing the conflict (also, I remember reading somewhere that Kysnaros wasn't really liked by his peers)
The other thing to keep in mind is that Grimnar easily is one of the oldest and most powerful warriors in the Imperium. He should be wiping the floor with (almost) anyone, especially if he gets the drop on someone.

The Inquisition runs to a large extent on reputation. Allowing a single Space Marine Chapter to openly fight and kill a number of Inquisitors with little open reprisal would not do them any favours in that regard. If someone said Kysnaros wasn't popular it would've been the Fenrisian Inquisitor who was pro-Wolf the whole way, complained about the Grey Knights not stopping the purges of Armageddon and comes across as not being Inquisitor material.

Logan Grimnar should be at least struggling against powerful Psykers. Instead the guy who shattered Angron's black blade couldn't touch him. Kysnaros was an even more powerful Psyker and either he couldn't do anything to Grimnar or he just stood still whilst half the bridge crew was slaughtered so... yeah I'm going with it being massively pro-Wolf. I can't even remember the Grey Knights killing a single Space Wolf without having to destroy their ship.

When the 'peace' is made Hyperion (the Grey Knight protagonist) agrees to tell the Space Wolves all about the Grey Knights. The whole think reeks of Space Wolves are morally better, Space Wolves get their own way with the Guardsmen, Space Wolves outfight the Inquisition, Inquisitors are killed and the others back down, and the Space Wolves demand that they learn all about the Grey Knights.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 grimz wrote:
Just read this fluff article over at BOLS, I've never heard about this cold War before but in it, it seems the Grey Knights just get their asses handed to them by the space Wolves. Almost just reads like Grimnar swats the GK Grand Master aside like a fly.

Started out as a cold war but it certainly became a hot one.

The Grand Master Joros was killed by Grimnar. Grimnar's weapon was out, Joros kept his sheathed during the talking. Then Grimnar killed him with a single blow. That, I can vaguely understand. I mean not really because why would you not draw your weapon if the other person has theirs out but hey, guy was an idiot.

Then the Grey knights use their Psychic powers to stop Grimnar and his men from teleporting out so the Space Wolves shoot them and teleport out.

Aaron Dembski-Bowden was the author of The Emperor's Gift, the novel that described it (and retconned it into an actual war). His prose isn't bad but he does not do the Grey Knights justice in that novel.

Dakka Wolf wrote:At the time of the Cold War the Space Wolves were a force to be reckoned with - Twelve Great Companies of between five hundred to a thousand Marines each, with honest psycic power counter measures like deny the witch boosts rather than just an oddball psychic discipline. They were also packing a Legion supply of Cruisers and Destroyers, an honest fleet rather than one or two ships.

The 7th Edition Space Wolf Codex says that the Great Companies have 500 - 1000 Space Marines in each? Retconning former numbers? Do you have a quote? Likewise on the fleet-size?

As to countering Psychic powers I'd expect Angron, Daemon Primarch of Khorne, the Ruinous Power who likes to defend his followers from cowardly Psykers, to have Grimnar beat on that score but apparently not according to ADB.

There is no quote for a hard number just a comment dropped in a book about the first war for Armageddon saying the Wolves have recovered their numbers since the fate of the Wolf Brothers.
Admittedly I have no clue about the Wolves' numbers during the Second Founding but half of ten thousand is five thousand, divided by twelve equals an average of four hundred and sixteen in each Company, assuming none of the Wolf Brothers survived the Second Founding to be brought back into the Space Wolves' ranks being a comment worthy growth always led me to assume five hundred in each Company wasn't a stretch.
This is a pre-Armageddon comment so their numbers were probably thinned afterwards, equally probable for the Grey Knights and it is entirely possible the Wolves were never quite that high to begin with but two or three Space Wolves to every one Grey Knight if they're at two thousand which is just adding their "rumoured" successor chapter Exorcists into the Grey Knight's supposedly non Codex compliant number making them double Codex permitted numbers - should satisfy "Way more".
Two or three to one is reason enough for the whole thing to not go beyond a cold war for several months.

Okay, I'm going to point out your flaws here.

First, if the Space Wolves numbered 5-6000, a point would be made. The Black Templars get that rumour, but supposedly get away with it because they are so spread out its hard to count. The Space Wolves are in a single place. If they have 5k, it would be quickly found out. Rogal Dorn nearly started a second civil war because of the numbers limits. He backed down and they did Guilliman's thing. The Space Wolves can in no way have 6000 marines without someone noticing. It would be an enormous risk of civil war, and a pointless one at that. Despite what people like to gakpost about them, the Space Wolves are extremely loyal to the Emperor and Imperium. They would never take that needless risk.

Second, you make a flawed argument about the split numbers. The Legions were divided based on remaining members when the divisions took place. The Ultramarines were largely unscatched due to the Calth war, so were divided into many different chapters. The Salamanders did not even have enough members to split in 2, so never had any successors. This suggests that the Space Wolves, by that point in time, had roughly enough Marines for two chapters, themselves and the Wolf Brothers. This could mean aything from 750 Marines each, to 1250 each, assuming they had enough to create two, full strength and slightly larger chapters. Recover their losses could indicate a region of 1500-1800 left in the Legion, and 750-900 in each chapter, with those "recoveries" bringing the number of priests and fleet back up to number, as exactly half the Priests and fleet went to the Second Founding Chapter. Furthermor, the Wolf Brothers could not be brought back into the fold. The reason the chapter collapsed was because they used non-Fenrisian natives as aspirants for the SW geneseed implants. This caused overwhelming mutation throughout the whole chapter. Bringing them back to Fenris and repainting their armour doesn't stop that. The only ones who could be brother back were the Priests and other HQ staff who came from the SW Legion initially.

Third: You keep bringing up the Exorcist Chapter but for no reason. They were never involved in the event at any point. They are also RUMOURED to be GK successors, not confirmed, due to similar remit, but very different in every single way. As previously mentioned, the GK's unique existance, setup and authority makes it highly improbable than they are actual GK successors, at most being "spiritual successors," with a different geneseed line. There is zero reason to bring up the Exorcists.

Fourth: The Grey Knights predate the Codex Astartes. They were formed by Malcador and the Emperor right before the Battle of Terra. The Codex was written long after the Emperor was interred on the Throne. The GK were founded in secret on the Emperor's authority, the other chapters on Guilliman's. To make it, 100%, unambiguously clear: The Codex Astartes, its restrictions, doctrines, and regulations, do NOT in any way apply to the Grey Knights. They are totally above its authority, outside its remit, and unassociated with the document. They have 1000 Marines because the Emperor declared it so upon creation. If the Emperor had ordered them be only 10, there would be 10 GK. If he ordered a Legion of 10,000, there would still be 10,000, because the Codex does not apply to them. Its not that they refuse to follow it, as with the Space Wolves or Black Templars, or are leniant with its teachings as with the Salamanders or Dark Angels. The Codex does not apply. Simple. End of topic.

Five: Cold Wars are cold because you don't want the general public to know there is a war. The Inquisition, as one poster mentioned, works on reputation. They do not want war. If they lose, they lose intimidation factor and authority. The Grey Knights want to keep their existance, and by extension, that of Daemons, a secret, which was what started the war in the first place. The super secret MI6 counter-terrorist unit that doesn't exist, doesn't start an open war with the SAS. Why? Because then everyone starts wondering who the SAS are fighting, and then everyone knows the unit exists, and that terrorists are trying to get into the UK. Its a bad strategy.

 Deadshot wrote:
Third: You keep bringing up the Exorcist Chapter but for no reason. They were never involved in the event at any point. They are also RUMOURED to be GK successors, not confirmed, due to similar remit, but very different in every single way. As previously mentioned, the GK's unique existance, setup and authority makes it highly improbable than they are actual GK successors, at most being "spiritual successors," with a different geneseed line. There is zero reason to bring up the Exorcists.

The Exorcists themselves believe themselves to be a GK successor - "Who better than an Exorcist to watch over one such as Karras? Even the mighty Grey Knights, from whose seed Rauth’s Chapter had been born, could hardly have been more suited to the task"

beast_gts wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Third: You keep bringing up the Exorcist Chapter but for no reason. They were never involved in the event at any point. They are also RUMOURED to be GK successors, not confirmed, due to similar remit, but very different in every single way. As previously mentioned, the GK's unique existance, setup and authority makes it highly improbable than they are actual GK successors, at most being "spiritual successors," with a different geneseed line. There is zero reason to bring up the Exorcists.

The Exorcists themselves believe themselves to be a GK successor - "Who better than an Exorcist to watch over one such as Karras? Even the mighty Grey Knights, from whose seed Rauth’s Chapter had been born, could hardly have been more suited to the task"

Belief is not fact. Its a reported rumour and belief, but the evidence is strongly against the notion.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 grimz wrote:
Just read this fluff article over at BOLS, I've never heard about this cold War before but in it, it seems the Grey Knights just get their asses handed to them by the space Wolves. Almost just reads like Grimnar swats the GK Grand Master aside like a fly.

Started out as a cold war but it certainly became a hot one.

The Grand Master Joros was killed by Grimnar. Grimnar's weapon was out, Joros kept his sheathed during the talking. Then Grimnar killed him with a single blow. That, I can vaguely understand. I mean not really because why would you not draw your weapon if the other person has theirs out but hey, guy was an idiot.

Then the Grey knights use their Psychic powers to stop Grimnar and his men from teleporting out so the Space Wolves shoot them and teleport out.

Aaron Dembski-Bowden was the author of The Emperor's Gift, the novel that described it (and retconned it into an actual war). His prose isn't bad but he does not do the Grey Knights justice in that novel.

Dakka Wolf wrote:At the time of the Cold War the Space Wolves were a force to be reckoned with - Twelve Great Companies of between five hundred to a thousand Marines each, with honest psycic power counter measures like deny the witch boosts rather than just an oddball psychic discipline. They were also packing a Legion supply of Cruisers and Destroyers, an honest fleet rather than one or two ships.

The 7th Edition Space Wolf Codex says that the Great Companies have 500 - 1000 Space Marines in each? Retconning former numbers? Do you have a quote? Likewise on the fleet-size?

As to countering Psychic powers I'd expect Angron, Daemon Primarch of Khorne, the Ruinous Power who likes to defend his followers from cowardly Psykers, to have Grimnar beat on that score but apparently not according to ADB.

There is no quote for a hard number just a comment dropped in a book about the first war for Armageddon saying the Wolves have recovered their numbers since the fate of the Wolf Brothers.
Admittedly I have no clue about the Wolves' numbers during the Second Founding but half of ten thousand is five thousand, divided by twelve equals an average of four hundred and sixteen in each Company, assuming none of the Wolf Brothers survived the Second Founding to be brought back into the Space Wolves' ranks being a comment worthy growth always led me to assume five hundred in each Company wasn't a stretch.
This is a pre-Armageddon comment so their numbers were probably thinned afterwards, equally probable for the Grey Knights and it is entirely possible the Wolves were never quite that high to begin with but two or three Space Wolves to every one Grey Knight if they're at two thousand which is just adding their "rumoured" successor chapter Exorcists into the Grey Knight's supposedly non Codex compliant number making them double Codex permitted numbers - should satisfy "Way more".
Two or three to one is reason enough for the whole thing to not go beyond a cold war for several months.

Okay, I'm going to point out your flaws here.

First, if the Space Wolves numbered 5-6000, a point would be made. The Black Templars get that rumour, but supposedly get away with it because they are so spread out its hard to count. The Space Wolves are in a single place. If they have 5k, it would be quickly found out. Rogal Dorn nearly started a second civil war because of the numbers limits. He backed down and they did Guilliman's thing. The Space Wolves can in no way have 6000 marines without someone noticing. It would be an enormous risk of civil war, and a pointless one at that. Despite what people like to gakpost about them, the Space Wolves are extremely loyal to the Emperor and Imperium. They would never take that needless risk.

The Space Wolves are not known for giving a damn about anyone else's rules and never have been. They told Guiliman they don't need his Codex. The only branch of the Inquisition they haven't openly defied is the Deathwatch and that is only to my knowledge - it's entirely possible they have. They've openly defied the High Lords of Terra. They've openly defied Imperial High Command the Space Wolves biggest challenge in Space Wolves' defiance has been finding new and relevant people to defy.
How have they gotten away with it? Circumstance.
They have the second most powerful planetary defense system in the Imperium.
They have one of the largest Adeptus fleets in the Imperium.
The general population stands up for them.
A bigger threat arrives.
They have a member who has served since the Emperor lived by his own power.

Second, you make a flawed argument about the split numbers. The Legions were divided based on remaining members when the divisions took place. The Ultramarines were largely unscatched due to the Calth war, so were divided into many different chapters. The Salamanders did not even have enough members to split in 2, so never had any successors. This suggests that the Space Wolves, by that point in time, had roughly enough Marines for two chapters, themselves and the Wolf Brothers. This could mean aything from 750 Marines each, to 1250 each, assuming they had enough to create two, full strength and slightly larger chapters. Recover their losses could indicate a region of 1500-1800 left in the Legion, and 750-900 in each chapter, with those "recoveries" bringing the number of priests and fleet back up to number, as exactly half the Priests and fleet went to the Second Founding Chapter. Furthermor, the Wolf Brothers could not be brought back into the fold. The reason the chapter collapsed was because they used non-Fenrisian natives as aspirants for the SW geneseed implants. This caused overwhelming mutation throughout the whole chapter. Bringing them back to Fenris and repainting their armour doesn't stop that. The only ones who could be brother back were the Priests and other HQ staff who came from the SW Legion initially.

The Space Wolves never divided due to the Codex or any other rule. Russ wanted successor chapters because he wanted numbers. The idea of successor chapters that appealed to Russ was growth not division or constraints, he wanted more feeder chapters, he states that much in the new-ish Leman Russ novel.

Third: You keep bringing up the Exorcist Chapter but for no reason. They were never involved in the event at any point. They are also RUMOURED to be GK successors, not confirmed, due to similar remit, but very different in every single way. As previously mentioned, the GK's unique existance, setup and authority makes it highly improbable than they are actual GK successors, at most being "spiritual successors," with a different geneseed line. There is zero reason to bring up the Exorcists.

I bring up the Exorcists as a chapter that might have the knowledge and desire to jump to the Grey Knight's aid, nobody else will, an order from the most hated organisation in the Imperium to jump to the aid of a non-existant force is going to be met with skepticism, if not outright scorn. Somehow the Exorcists know of the non-existant Grey Knights and even claim to be their successors.
In the second comment about the Exorcists I just dumped their optimal number on the Knights wholesale when somebody claimed the Knights numbers as more than the thousand rather than bothering to divert the conversation to the validity of the Exorcists' claim of ties to the Grey Knights - I'm just generous that way.

Fourth: The Grey Knights predate the Codex Astartes. They were formed by Malcador and the Emperor right before the Battle of Terra. The Codex was written long after the Emperor was interred on the Throne. The GK were founded in secret on the Emperor's authority, the other chapters on Guilliman's. To make it, 100%, unambiguously clear: The Codex Astartes, its restrictions, doctrines, and regulations, do NOT in any way apply to the Grey Knights. They are totally above its authority, outside its remit, and unassociated with the document. They have 1000 Marines because the Emperor declared it so upon creation. If the Emperor had ordered them be only 10, there would be 10 GK. If he ordered a Legion of 10,000, there would still be 10,000, because the Codex does not apply to them. Its not that they refuse to follow it, as with the Space Wolves or Black Templars, or are leniant with its teachings as with the Salamanders or Dark Angels. The Codex does not apply. Simple. End of topic.

So they now number just one thousand and we're back to the Grey Knights being massively outnumbered by the Wolves influencing their decision not to take things further than Cold War.

Five: Cold Wars are cold because you don't want the general public to know there is a war. The Inquisition, as one poster mentioned, works on reputation. They do not want war. If they lose, they lose intimidation factor and authority. The Grey Knights want to keep their existance, and by extension, that of Daemons, a secret, which was what started the war in the first place. The super secret MI6 counter-terrorist unit that doesn't exist, doesn't start an open war with the SAS. Why? Because then everyone starts wondering who the SAS are fighting, and then everyone knows the unit exists, and that terrorists are trying to get into the UK. Its a bad strategy.

Funny how the secrecy forces of the Inquisition stuffed that up on multiple levels.
Firstly the Grey Knights were on Armageddon at Grimnar's request - for some reason Grimnar never got the memo that the Grey Knights were a secret, or never cared.
Secondly the suppression of Chaos knowledge was an epic failure the first time around, a failure of Horus Heresy level proportions.
Thirdly the Inquisition did fire on the Space Wolves during the Space Wolves' evacuation/smuggling (depends on perspective) of the population and Imperial Guard off Armageddon.
Fourth the Wolves outgunned the Inquisition but did not return fire so the non-existant force was outgunned and had no moral high ground.
Strike five was travelling to lay seige to Fenris, even lightly defended the Space Wolves' home base isn't a place you take a secret war to, it was a move that got their seige trapped between one of the best defences in the Imperium and one of the biggest Astartes fleets in the Imperium.

I was happy to say the Grey Knights backed off because they were heavily outnumbered, turns out they backed off because layers of failure backed them into a corner.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Okay, I'm going to point out your flaws here.

First, if the Space Wolves numbered 5-6000, a point would be made. The Black Templars get that rumour, but supposedly get away with it because they are so spread out its hard to count. The Space Wolves are in a single place. If they have 5k, it would be quickly found out. Rogal Dorn nearly started a second civil war because of the numbers limits. He backed down and they did Guilliman's thing. The Space Wolves can in no way have 6000 marines without someone noticing. It would be an enormous risk of civil war, and a pointless one at that. Despite what people like to gakpost about them, the Space Wolves are extremely loyal to the Emperor and Imperium. They would never take that needless risk.

The Space Wolves are not known for giving a damn about anyone else's rules and never have been. They told Guiliman they don't need his Codex. The only branch of the Inquisition they haven't openly defied is the Deathwatch and that is only to my knowledge - it's entirely possible they have. They've openly defied the High Lords of Terra. They've openly defied Imperial High Command the Space Wolves biggest challenge in Space Wolves' defiance has been finding new and relevant people to defy.
How have they gotten away with it? Circumstance.
They have the second most powerful planetary defense system in the Imperium.
They have one of the largest Adeptus fleets in the Imperium.
The general population stands up for them.
A bigger threat arrives.
They have a member who has served since the Emperor lived by his own power.

Dakkawolf, you're a guy whose been around awhile, so I'm honestly suprised you're making a pretty rookie mistake re the codex Astartes. in that you seem to be assuming it's only some sort of number limiter. it's not, the Codex Astartes is an orginizational guide. (10 companies, 1 vetern, 1 scout, 100 marines each, scouts are not to a set size. devestator squads, assault squads and tatical squads are a thing, etc) in that you're quite right that the Space Wolves are non Codex compliant, however in the same breath, neither are the Grey Knights. I'd argue it's an even contest between those two as what is MORE codex Divergent, (in fact I'd argue Grey Knights have a bit of an edge, with Space Wolves you can say "grey hunters are kinda tac marines etc" but obviously we could argue this till we're blue in the face as both pay no mind at all to the codex)

right now we have a rough guesstimate for both sides man power strength, Grey Knights of of M 41 999 have a strength of yeah about 1000 Marines, Space wolves, proably 1500-2500 however the troop numbers isn't really all that relevant as a lot of the fighting was space actions, the space wolves trying to escort convoys etc, and the inqusition wacking said convoys. I suspect the space wolves had a numerical disadvantage there.


BTW I don't think ADB favored the space wolves so much as he was writing about what happened, and needed the ending more or less as it was eistablished, problem is the ending doesn't make much sense and any other chapter would have been destroyed