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A simple question I've been pondering for a while. We've all seen people talk about Rob used as force multiplier, particular the infamous razorback spam and similar, but what separates him from other similar choices?

In particular I'm wondering why he gets more attention compared to other cheaper force multipliers, such as Abaddon, Azrael, or Logan Grimnar. You lose the ability to reroll wounds, but usually gain another benefit. Immunity to morale for big blobs of cultists/CSM for Abaddon or wolf guard for Logan, Azrael giving everything around him a 4+ invulnerable, even tanks. These characters are also generally 50%-66% as expensive as Robby himself is. For the loyalists, you can slap a LT and reroll some wounds, while getting your other benefits and still being cheaper.

So is this just an example of people hyper focusing on one fancy model, or is there something I'm not seeing?

3 preds and rowboat, enjoy getting shot and and rerolling all failed misses and wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rerolling all wounds and hit massive

He sits in the back, can't be targeted, and buffs all your long range dakka to the point of sillyness.

Reroling wounds is a much better benefit than the others, barring perhaps Azrael's.

But again, is he really buffing your army that well for his cost?

Azrael+a primaris LT is probably the best example, for 90ish points less the RG you are getting to reroll all misses, failed wounds of one, and giving everything nearby a 4+ invulnerable save.

I'm trying to figure out what makes Robby himself so expectional, compared to the other strong buffing characters.

SilverAlien wrote:
But again, is he really buffing your army that well for his cost?

Azrael+a primaris LT is probably the best example, for 90ish points less the RG you are getting to reroll all misses, failed wounds of one, and giving everything nearby a 4+ invulnerable save.

I'm trying to figure out what makes Robby himself so expectional, compared to the other strong buffing characters.

A 4++ is useless for most Marine models against anything AP 0 or AP -1, or even AP -2 if they're in cover.

Re-rolling all to-wound rolls ever period is not useless.

Furthermore, a 4++ makes your army less likely to die, while re-rolls to wound makes the enemy more likely do die. The latter increases survivability, the former increases lethality and survivability.

SilverAlien wrote:
But again, is he really buffing your army that well for his cost?

Azrael+a primaris LT is probably the best example, for 90ish points less the RG you are getting to reroll all misses, failed wounds of one, and giving everything nearby a 4+ invulnerable save.

I'm trying to figure out what makes Robby himself so expectional, compared to the other strong buffing characters.

3 Quad Lascannon Predators cause 18 and a half wounds on normal vehicles, 12 and a half on Land Raider Equivalents ON AVERAGE
http://prntscr.com/g5jhhz

Add in Bobby G, and that skyrockets to 33 wounds. http://prntscr.com/g5jhhz

Even if you take bare minimum Autocannon preds, it jumps from ~15 wounds to ~23 http://prntscr.com/g5jj8n http://prntscr.com/g5jjcz

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
But again, is he really buffing your army that well for his cost?

Azrael+a primaris LT is probably the best example, for 90ish points less the RG you are getting to reroll all misses, failed wounds of one, and giving everything nearby a 4+ invulnerable save.

I'm trying to figure out what makes Robby himself so expectional, compared to the other strong buffing characters.

A 4++ is useless for most Marine models against anything AP 0 or AP -1, or even AP -2 if they're in cover.

Re-rolling all to-wound rolls ever period is not useless.

Furthermore, a 4++ makes your army less likely to die, while re-rolls to wound makes the enemy more likely do die. The latter increases survivability, the former increases lethality and survivability.

A 4++ is worthless for most marine armies? Excuse me while I LMAO.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
But again, is he really buffing your army that well for his cost?

Azrael+a primaris LT is probably the best example, for 90ish points less the RG you are getting to reroll all misses, failed wounds of one, and giving everything nearby a 4+ invulnerable save.

I'm trying to figure out what makes Robby himself so expectional, compared to the other strong buffing characters.

A 4++ is useless for most Marine models against anything AP 0 or AP -1, or even AP -2 if they're in cover.

Re-rolling all to-wound rolls ever period is not useless.

Furthermore, a 4++ makes your army less likely to die, while re-rolls to wound makes the enemy more likely do die. The latter increases survivability, the former increases lethality and survivability.

A 4++ is worthless for most marine armies? Excuse me while I LMAO.

I'm pretty sure you ignored the second half of my sentence.

But that's okay, I get that reading can be hard sometimes.

A stormravens will on average only connect and wound on half its total shots. Just how the math works out.

With Rob G. That % increases by 25% assuming your weapons are hitting their prefered targets. So effectively a 50% increase of firepower compared to before. A stormraven that lives for 2 turns under those conditions has effectively lived for 3. The's rerolls become more important for degraded vehicles.

His buff is much stronger than those of the other characters you mentioned, aside from possibly Azrael.

Fearless is not a huge deal. Re-rolling wounds is a huge deal. He makes your shooting units much, much scarier.

He is also far stronger by himself than any of those. He is much better in CC and is much more durable. He has a resurrection rule that can protect him from any amount of shooting in a single turn, since he doesn't stand back up until the end of the phase. It often doesn't even make sense to try to assassinate Guilliman, and he makes his gunline very hard to disrupt with CC.

He gives you +3 CP.

He has a fantastic Warlord Trait that's a lot like giving you +50% CP.

Yeah, Azrael is really solid. But a 4++ will often fail to yield that big of an increase in survivability. Obviously you're never getting anything against AP 0 or -1 attacks. Your high value infantry like Devastators would otherwise just be in cover. You can bring Contemptor Mortis dreads with a 5++.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
But again, is he really buffing your army that well for his cost?

Azrael+a primaris LT is probably the best example, for 90ish points less the RG you are getting to reroll all misses, failed wounds of one, and giving everything nearby a 4+ invulnerable save.

I'm trying to figure out what makes Robby himself so expectional, compared to the other strong buffing characters.

3 Quad Lascannon Predators cause 18 and a half wounds on normal vehicles, 12 and a half on Land Raider Equivalents ON AVERAGE
http://prntscr.com/g5jhhz

Add in Bobby G, and that skyrockets to 33 wounds. http://prntscr.com/g5jhhz

Or you could just add a standard reroll miss captain for 70 points (which is also an HQ choice) and include almost 2 more predators (you actually can include 2 more predators if you consider the fact you'll have to take another HQ in order to take Guilliman) Not only do the preds have 2 more tanks to soak wounds on - they also have more firepower. Ofc as you keep adding preditors Guilliman takes over with scaling. Scaling affacts all auras though. Since this game is really designed to be played at like 2000 points competitively - that's kind of a moot point.

OFC - this fact is ignored when complaining about Guilliman.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
But again, is he really buffing your army that well for his cost?

Azrael+a primaris LT is probably the best example, for 90ish points less the RG you are getting to reroll all misses, failed wounds of one, and giving everything nearby a 4+ invulnerable save.

I'm trying to figure out what makes Robby himself so expectional, compared to the other strong buffing characters.

3 Quad Lascannon Predators cause 18 and a half wounds on normal vehicles, 12 and a half on Land Raider Equivalents ON AVERAGE
http://prntscr.com/g5jhhz

Add in Bobby G, and that skyrockets to 33 wounds. http://prntscr.com/g5jhhz

Or you could just add a standard reroll miss captain for 70 points (which is also an HQ choice) and include almost 2 more predators (you actually can include 2 more predators if you consider the fact you'll have to take another HQ in order to take Guilliman) Not only do the preds have 2 more tanks to soak wounds on - they also have more firepower. Ofc as you keep adding preditors Guilliman takes over with scaling. Scaling affacts all auras though. Since this game is really designed to be played at like 2000 points competitively - that's kind of a moot point.

OFC - this fact is ignored when complaining about Guilliman.

The upshot is if I can get into combat with the captain + predators with a Baneblade, they're pretty useless. If I get into combat with Guilliman + Predators with a Baneblade, I'm dead.

Because, even with the buffs above (which as you mention, scale, and whatnot), Gulliman is also a combat monster, gives you +3 command points, has a good chance (75% with a smart player) to reanimate, has a respectable shooting attack, and is far more durable than a regular SM captain.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
3 Quad Lascannon Predators cause 18 and a half wounds on normal vehicles, 12 and a half on Land Raider Equivalents ON AVERAGE
http://prntscr.com/g5jhhz

Add in Bobby G, and that skyrockets to 33 wounds. http://prntscr.com/g5jhhz

Even if you take bare minimum Autocannon preds, it jumps from ~15 wounds to ~23 http://prntscr.com/g5jj8n http://prntscr.com/g5jjcz

Again though, Azrael+LT (or any other chapter master including the generic captain upgrade) would be buffing those same predators to 29 wounds, while being 90-150 points cheaper. That's enough for a razorback with TLLC to sit with them, which puts their damage on par for cost, plus either still being cheaper with generic CM or giving all the vehicles a 4+ invulnerable.

That's kinda what I'm driving at, when you do the math Robby isn't the best force multiplier for his cost. I've been assuming it was his toughness or melee ability, but I noticed people never mentioned them all that much.

As for people saying 4++ doesn't matter... really? See what happens to lascannon damage vs a predator or razorback with a 4++, the thing people always suggest surrounding these characters with. No not devastators or dreads, predators and razorbacks the things everyone already wants to use in this situation. It's an invaluable increase to durability if you don't get alpha.

Listen we can argue till the cows come home and people can think what they want. But at the end of the day rowboats buffs are what make him so amazing which is why he is so powerful right now and one of the best units to take for a smerf army

plus Gilligan comes BACK, which is painfully good

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
But again, is he really buffing your army that well for his cost?

Azrael+a primaris LT is probably the best example, for 90ish points less the RG you are getting to reroll all misses, failed wounds of one, and giving everything nearby a 4+ invulnerable save.

I'm trying to figure out what makes Robby himself so expectional, compared to the other strong buffing characters.

A 4++ is useless for most Marine models against anything AP 0 or AP -1, or even AP -2 if they're in cover.

Re-rolling all to-wound rolls ever period is not useless.

Furthermore, a 4++ makes your army less likely to die, while re-rolls to wound makes the enemy more likely do die. The latter increases survivability, the former increases lethality and survivability.

A 4++ is worthless for most marine armies? Excuse me while I LMAO.

I'm pretty sure you ignored the second half of my sentence.

But that's okay, I get that reading can be hard sometimes.

Sorry - you said 4++ save is useless when it literally makes you 50% more survival to heavy firepower (practically the only thing that exists in this game) that is what I am going to focus on - because it's an insane statement. Whatever point you're making about one buff always being usefull while the other isn't always useful is bunk. You can't buff a dead unit can you? las I checked Las cannons and dark lances are pretty good at killing razorbacks - but about half as effective at doing so against razors with 4++ saves.

SilverAlien wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
3 Quad Lascannon Predators cause 18 and a half wounds on normal vehicles, 12 and a half on Land Raider Equivalents ON AVERAGE
http://prntscr.com/g5jhhz

Add in Bobby G, and that skyrockets to 33 wounds. http://prntscr.com/g5jhhz

Even if you take bare minimum Autocannon preds, it jumps from ~15 wounds to ~23 http://prntscr.com/g5jj8n http://prntscr.com/g5jjcz

Again though, Azrael+LT (or any other chapter master including the generic captain upgrade) would be buffing those same predators to 29 wounds, while being 90-150 points cheaper. That's enough for a razorback with TLLC to sit with them, which puts their damage on par for cost, plus either still being cheaper with generic CM or giving all the vehicles a 4+ invulnerable.

That's kinda what I'm driving at, when you do the math Robby isn't the best force multiplier for his cost. I've been assuming it was his toughness or melee ability, but I noticed people never mentioned them all that much.

The issue is that yes, Azrael+LT make for more suvivable predators, but so does Guilliman. There's not really any math to account for it, because it's not something that can easily be mathed given the number of variables, but essentially, killing counters before they kill you can improve your durability by a buttload.

For example: you need ~7-8 lascannon wounds to cripple or kill a Shadowsword on average. Without Guilliman, that's 18 shots (And ignoring the Shadowsword's 6+ save out of cover for simplicity). With Guilliman that's ... something like 12 shots?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
But again, is he really buffing your army that well for his cost?

Azrael+a primaris LT is probably the best example, for 90ish points less the RG you are getting to reroll all misses, failed wounds of one, and giving everything nearby a 4+ invulnerable save.

I'm trying to figure out what makes Robby himself so expectional, compared to the other strong buffing characters.

A 4++ is useless for most Marine models against anything AP 0 or AP -1, or even AP -2 if they're in cover.

Re-rolling all to-wound rolls ever period is not useless.

Furthermore, a 4++ makes your army less likely to die, while re-rolls to wound makes the enemy more likely do die. The latter increases survivability, the former increases lethality and survivability.

A 4++ is worthless for most marine armies? Excuse me while I LMAO.

I'm pretty sure you ignored the second half of my sentence.

But that's okay, I get that reading can be hard sometimes.

Sorry - you said 4++ save is useless when it literally makes you 50% more survival to heavy firepower (practically the only thing that exists in this game) that is what I am going to focus on - because it's an insane statement. Whatever point you're making about one buff always being usefull while the other isn't always useful is bunk. You can't buff a dead unit can you? las I checked Las cannons and dark lances are pretty good at killing razorbacks - but about half as effective at doing so against razors with 4++ saves.

So, let me know how many times you use Azreal's 4++ against AP0 or AP-1 weapons then, or AP-2 weapons when you're in cover.

I'll wait.

(since those were the guns we were talking about n'all. I mean if you want to ignore it go ahead, but don't try to pretend I'm wrong).

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Listen we can argue till the cows come home and people can think what they want. But at the end of the day rowboats buffs are what make him so amazing which is why he is so powerful right now and one of the best units to take for a smerf army

But, that's the point, he isn't the best buffer. He is a good buffer yes, but not the best even for varying flavors of SM. His combat ability and CP boosts are what actually separate him from other force multipliers.

And that he is allowing ALL wound and hits not just ones

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
3 Quad Lascannon Predators cause 18 and a half wounds on normal vehicles, 12 and a half on Land Raider Equivalents ON AVERAGE
http://prntscr.com/g5jhhz

Add in Bobby G, and that skyrockets to 33 wounds. http://prntscr.com/g5jhhz

Even if you take bare minimum Autocannon preds, it jumps from ~15 wounds to ~23 http://prntscr.com/g5jj8n http://prntscr.com/g5jjcz

Again though, Azrael+LT (or any other chapter master including the generic captain upgrade) would be buffing those same predators to 29 wounds, while being 90-150 points cheaper. That's enough for a razorback with TLLC to sit with them, which puts their damage on par for cost, plus either still being cheaper with generic CM or giving all the vehicles a 4+ invulnerable.

That's kinda what I'm driving at, when you do the math Robby isn't the best force multiplier for his cost. I've been assuming it was his toughness or melee ability, but I noticed people never mentioned them all that much.

The issue is that yes, Azrael+LT make for more suvivable predators, but so does Guilliman. There's not really any math to account for it, because it's not something that can easily be mathed given the number of variables, but essentially, killing counters before they kill you can improve your durability by a buttload.

For example: you need ~7-8 lascannon wounds to cripple or kill a Shadowsword on average. Without Guilliman, that's 18 shots (And ignoring the Shadowsword's 6+ save out of cover for simplicity). With Guilliman that's ... something like 12 shots?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
But again, is he really buffing your army that well for his cost?

Azrael+a primaris LT is probably the best example, for 90ish points less the RG you are getting to reroll all misses, failed wounds of one, and giving everything nearby a 4+ invulnerable save.

I'm trying to figure out what makes Robby himself so expectional, compared to the other strong buffing characters.

A 4++ is useless for most Marine models against anything AP 0 or AP -1, or even AP -2 if they're in cover.

Re-rolling all to-wound rolls ever period is not useless.

Furthermore, a 4++ makes your army less likely to die, while re-rolls to wound makes the enemy more likely do die. The latter increases survivability, the former increases lethality and survivability.

A 4++ is worthless for most marine armies? Excuse me while I LMAO.

I'm pretty sure you ignored the second half of my sentence.

But that's okay, I get that reading can be hard sometimes.

Sorry - you said 4++ save is useless when it literally makes you 50% more survival to heavy firepower (practically the only thing that exists in this game) that is what I am going to focus on - because it's an insane statement. Whatever point you're making about one buff always being usefull while the other isn't always useful is bunk. You can't buff a dead unit can you? las I checked Las cannons and dark lances are pretty good at killing razorbacks - but about half as effective at doing so against razors with 4++ saves.

So, let me know how many times you use Azreal's 4++ against AP0 or AP-1 weapons then, or AP-2 weapons when you're in cover.

I'll wait.

(since those were the guns we were talking about n'all. I mean if you want to ignore it go ahead, but don't try to pretend I'm wrong).

Since we are talking about who is the better force multipler - why don't you compare 1 SS buffed by Bobby G - compared to 1 SS buffed by Azreal?

Rowboat is hands down the best single buffing unit to the imperium thats not subjecting that's objectively true just look at what he does. Can you get similar effects? Sure but it's like buying name brand vs knock off.

How often are you in cover when trying to get your whole army in a 6" bubble where they can actaully see things to shot them? ESP with vehicles.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The issue is that yes, Azrael+LT make for more suvivable predators, but so does Guilliman. There's not really any math to account for it, because it's not something that can easily be mathed given the number of variables, but essentially, killing counters before they kill you can improve your durability by a buttload.

For example: you need ~7-8 lascannon wounds to cripple or kill a Shadowsword on average. Without Guilliman, that's 18 shots (And ignoring the Shadowsword's 6+ save out of cover for simplicity). With Guilliman that's ... something like 12 shots

A 4++ is useless for most Marine models against anything AP 0 or AP -1, or even AP -2 if they're in cover.

Re-rolling all to-wound rolls ever period is not useless.

Furthermore, a 4++ makes your army less likely to die, while re-rolls to wound makes the enemy more likely do die. The latter increases survivability, the former increases lethality and survivability.

But again, we've established Robby doesn't actually boost firepower to any significant degree more than azrael+LT. He'd only be more effective to any notable degree for his cost if you were using assault cannons vs land raiders or something similar. The difference is cost allows additional firepower to be buffed to the point the difference is negligible. So, his boosting firepower isn't part of the equation, that's been equalized across both situations. Robby isn't more lethal.

Again, you don't take azrael to buff devastators any more than you take Robby to. You take them to buff predators or razorbacks, who aren't getting shot with ap 0/-1 weapons that often and can't get cover.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Rowboat is hands down the best single buffing unit to the imperium thats not subjecting that's objectively true just look at what he does. Can you get similar effects? Sure but it's like buying name brand vs knock off.

Except it isn't objectively true when you factor in cost. As a buffing utility, his price tag makes him less effective than other options, as he cuts too much into the points for purchasing firepower to buff.

This is all kinda confirming my suspicion a lot of people never really compared his buffing to other units and just assumed he was the best option for his cost.

I think one thing that is important is that he re-rolls all hits and all wounds at the same time.

Re-rolling all hits on a 3+ is good. It means only 1/9 shots will miss, 8/9 will hit. So that's what, an 89% hit rate?

Re-rolling all wounds is also good. Your target number will vary more because it depends on the weapon and target, but generally it's 5+, 4+, or 3+. With re-rolls that makes a 4/9, 1/4, or 1/9 fail rate, so 5/9, 3/4, and 8/9 wound rate respectively.

Together, they're insane. 40k's system is built on the assumption that your shots will run a gauntlet of fairly poor probabilities before finally taking a wound off. Skewing one of those can change results a lot, skewing both is massive.

Let's say whatever you're shooting needs a 3+ to wound.

Without all those re-rolls, you're looking at 2/3 and 2/3, for a net 4/9 wound rate, about 44%.

Re-roll any one of those and it goes to 16/27 (8/9*2/3), about 59%.

Re-roll two of them (hit and wound for example) and it goes to 64/81 (8/9*8/9), or 79%.

That's just a bit shy of doubling the base value. So if you can put him in range of his own value in units, he can easily pay for himself with that aura alone. But he doesn't just have that aura, he also has 3 command points, a monstrous stat line of his own, a 4+ Resurrection Protocols roll, and a 12" bubble of +1 to advance/charge rolls plus re-rolling 1s to hit and granting ATSKNF to units that don't have it.

And the only restrictions on any of those is the faction keyword.

Basically it's not just that he's a monstrous beatstick unit, though he is. It's not just that he has a ridiculously amazing aura that he can apply to any unit in his entire codex, though he does. It's not just that he has a second, still good aura that he can apply to the entire Imperium keyword, though he's got that too. It's not just that he has a Celestine-like ability to get back up on a 4+, though he's got that too.

It's that he has all of those things at the same time. Plus 3 command points, to help him make those resurrection rolls.

Seems pretty obvious girlyman would be worth it even if he was 100 pts more expensive.

Reroll all wound rolls is often noticeably more impactful than rerolling only 1s to wound. Consider the difference when wounding on 4+. Reroll 1s adds 1/12 of a wound per hit, resulting in a ~17% increase of total damage. Reroll all adds 1/4 of a wound per hit, resulting in a 50% increase of total damage. At 4+ to wound a unit with Guilliman buffs is dishing out roughly 29% more damage than the same unit with Azrael and lieutenant buffs would. This effect is smaller at 3+ but greater at 5+ to wound.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The issue is that yes, Azrael+LT make for more suvivable predators, but so does Guilliman. There's not really any math to account for it, because it's not something that can easily be mathed given the number of variables, but essentially, killing counters before they kill you can improve your durability by a buttload.

For example: you need ~7-8 lascannon wounds to cripple or kill a Shadowsword on average. Without Guilliman, that's 18 shots (And ignoring the Shadowsword's 6+ save out of cover for simplicity). With Guilliman that's ... something like 12 shots

A 4++ is useless for most Marine models against anything AP 0 or AP -1, or even AP -2 if they're in cover.

Re-rolling all to-wound rolls ever period is not useless.

Furthermore, a 4++ makes your army less likely to die, while re-rolls to wound makes the enemy more likely do die. The latter increases survivability, the former increases lethality and survivability.

But again, we've established Robby doesn't actually boost firepower to any significant degree more than azrael+LT. He'd only be more effective to any notable degree for his cost if you were using assault cannons vs land raiders or something similar. The difference is cost allows additional firepower to be buffed to the point the difference is negligible. So, his boosting firepower isn't part of the equation, that's been equalized across both situations. Robby isn't more lethal.

Again, you don't take azrael to buff devastators any more than you take Robby to. You take them to buff predators or razorbacks, who aren't getting shot with ap 0/-1 weapons that often and can't get cover.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Rowboat is hands down the best single buffing unit to the imperium thats not subjecting that's objectively true just look at what he does. Can you get similar effects? Sure but it's like buying name brand vs knock off.

Except it isn't objectively true when you factor in cost. As a buffing utility, his price tag makes him less effective than other options, as he cuts too much into the points for purchasing firepower to buff.

This is all kinda confirming my suspicion a lot of people never really compared his buffing to other units and just assumed he was the best option for his cost.

I think there are other buffs beyond aura that Azrael/LT don't give, like 3 Command Points.

3 Command Points can make a big difference, especially with strategems beginning to cost CP.

The stuff around Guilliman dies just as fast as ever.

He's a lord of war. You're eating a whole detachment for him, so that's 1 of your 3, unless you have a lot of HQs - unlikely - or a couple more lords of war (possible, but why are you bringing Guilliman then?)

Doesn't improve LOS, which is the big problem for this kind of dakka. Since all the other units under discussion allow reroll of hits, Guilliman gives you rerolled wounds. If you wound on 3+ that's only 12.5% more effective at wounding than a Primaris Lieutenant.

There's a reason why Guilliman lists did nothing at the BAO, and Dark Angels did well. 4++ > reroll wounds in any scenario where you go second, and if your defense dice are hot, you're going to really give someone a bad day.

At least in my opinion, Azrael > Guilliman. I don't really even play Guilliman anymore. The tanks around him still blow up turn 1 and 2.

Personally I find him very overrated. Every time I have faced him he was easily destroyed in CC.

But there is no denying, that he is part of very many top-performing tournament lists, often combined with bassilisks and a meatshield of conscripts. So he must be good.