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He meets all the requirements for his own buffs too, so I'm pretty sure he also buffs himself.

Considering his stat line, that is not insignificant. He may be short ranged, but within his range he's a murder machine on his own. Especially since his re-rolls apply to both shooting and melee.

Like... people have complained about how large a buff FRFSRF is. But imagine it applied to all weapons on any AM unit, not just lasguns on infantry, was an aura instead of a single target, and the company commander was St. Celestine dual-wielding assault cannons.

 Marmatag wrote:
There's a reason why Guilliman lists did nothing at the BAO, and Dark Angels did well. 4++ > reroll wounds in any scenario where you go second, and if your defense dice are hot, you're going to really give someone a bad day.

The third place finisher was a Guilliman list. There were no Dark Angels in the top three.

Robby gives 3 cp vs 1 cp for azrael, which is an advantage but I'm not sure outweighs the cost and invulnerable bonus.

sossen wrote:
Reroll all wound rolls is often noticeably more impactful than rerolling only 1s to wound. Consider the difference when wounding on 4+. Reroll 1s adds 1/12 of a wound per hit, resulting in a ~17% increase of total damage. Reroll all adds 1/4 of a wound per hit, resulting in a 50% increase of total damage. At 4+ to wound a unit with Guilliman buffs is dishing out roughly 29% more damage than the same unit with Azrael and lieutenant buffs would. This effect is smaller at 3+ but greater at 5+ to wound.

Which means Robby helps more when using low strength weapons vs high strength targets. In the context of tank buffing, that means he'd help heavy bolters, autocannons, and assault cannons vs tanks. Which is a potential usage, particularly the predator autocannons, but again I usually see people talking about lascannons for tanks and assault cannons for infantry.

 koooaei wrote:
Seems pretty obvious girlyman would be worth it even if he was 100 pts more expensive.

At that point, he wouldn't even be a particularly effective force multiplier. Calgar+LT would outperform him in terms of aura vs cost, he'd only remain useful if used as a force multiplier and beat stick or something similar.

pismakron wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
There's a reason why Guilliman lists did nothing at the BAO, and Dark Angels did well. 4++ > reroll wounds in any scenario where you go second, and if your defense dice are hot, you're going to really give someone a bad day.

The third place finisher was a Guilliman list. There were no Dark Angels in the top three.

It was a list with Guilliman, but also had Imperium Soup. 2x squads of conscripts, commissar, basilisks, a Cullexus...

But you're right I was wrong. This is technically a list with Guilliman.

It's also worth noting that rowboat is better now because of their codex dropping. DA are still stuck with the index rules. So now rowboat can make even more use of his command points

 Backspacehacker wrote:
It's also worth noting that rowboat is better now because of their codex dropping. DA are still stuck with the index rules. So now rowboat can make even more use of his command points

That is a fair statement. More command point uses > less command point uses.

Grav-cannons in particular make for a great combination with Guilliman, his buff more than doubles their damage vs tanks, which was good to begin with. An efficient way to kill anything MEQ and up, including tanks, terminators etc. Main issue is range and platform, devastators are not survivable enough to carry expensive weapons.

SilverAlien, you DO know the difference between rerolling misses of 1s, and rerolling ALL failed to-wound rolls, right?

The mathematical difference?

The only time "reroll 1s" is the same as "reroll everything" is if you hit on 2+. Most marine models don't hit on two plus, as a result, "reroll everything" is twice as effective for marines. And three times as effective if those marines are firing heavy weapons after moving.

Or to put it more bluntly; if your captain gives you reroll ones, half of your marines' misses aren't rerolled.

The same is true of rerolling wounds. If you reroll to-wound rolls of ones, the only time this is equivalent to rerolling all wounds is if you're wounding on a 2+. When wounding on a 3+, rerolling all failed wounds is twice as effective; on a 4+, three times more, on a 5+, four times more, on a 6+, five times more.

pismakron wrote:
Personally I find him very overrated. Every time I have faced him he was easily destroyed in CC.

But there is no denying, that he is part of very many top-performing tournament lists, often combined with bassilisks and a meatshield of conscripts. So he must be good.

What are you killing him with in cc? there is a stratagem which allows him to attack when you kill him and he is quite a beast in cc himself then he comes back to life 50% of the time (75% if you have another cp to spend)

Generally speaking it is the whole package which makes him good, buffing, durability, extra cp, decent gun, melee beast.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
It's also worth noting that rowboat is better now because of their codex dropping. DA are still stuck with the index rules. So now rowboat can make even more use of his command points

That will change in less than a month...

I have been hearing it's not gonna be until next year that chapters will be seeing their codex drop

Ix_Tab wrote:

pismakron wrote:
Personally I find him very overrated. Every time I have faced him he was easily destroyed in CC.

But there is no denying, that he is part of very many top-performing tournament lists, often combined with bassilisks and a meatshield of conscripts. So he must be good.

What are you killing him with in cc?

Ghazkgul and boyz

Its a combination. He gives all of that buffing on top of being a combat monster who is incredibly hard to remove, then has the chance to come back. The total package is just nuts. Most people spend so much of their army just trying to shift or bring him down.
I usually kill him with a Swarmlord and hope he doesn't come back.

I've played against him a few times now. I just kill the stuff around him and then he walks around angrily as I split up to grab objectives.

Haven't lost to him yet, or even come close.

Guilliman's buffs are good because they're competing against other 8th edition character buffs. In something like 7th he'd be a fairly mediocre character for his points cost, but there isn't anyone besides maybe Magnus who can buff armies on the scale he can in 8th. So he's really powerful.

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
Its a combination. He gives all of that buffing on top of being a combat monster who is incredibly hard to remove, then has the chance to come back. The total package is just nuts. Most people spend so much of their army just trying to shift or bring him down.
I usually kill him with a Swarmlord and hope he doesn't come back.

Attacking him with something like a Swarmlord seems like a bad idea, if you kill him he uses only in death does duty end and kills you some % of the time (expected damage is a little over 10) then he stands back up 75% having used only the cp he brings with him (and gets 1/3 cp back)

 Melissia wrote:
SilverAlien, you DO know the difference between rerolling misses of 1s, and rerolling ALL failed to-wound rolls, right?

The mathematical difference?

The only time "reroll 1s" is the same as "reroll everything" is if you hit on 2+. Most marine models don't hit on two plus, as a result, "reroll everything" is twice as effective for marines. And three times as effective if those marines are firing heavy weapons after moving.

Or to put it more bluntly; if your captain gives you reroll ones, half of your marines' misses aren't rerolled.

The same is true of rerolling wounds. If you reroll to-wound rolls of ones, the only time this is equivalent to rerolling all wounds is if you're wounding on a 2+. When wounding on a 3+, rerolling all failed wounds is twice as effective; on a 4+, three times more, on a 5+, four times more, on a 6+, five times more.

Yes and I'm also totally able to recognize that paying 100 extra points (or more) to go from rerolling ones to rerolling ones and twos isn't going to be worth the cost. Which is what generally is happening if a vehicle is firing its weapons at the correct target. Particularly with lascannons I'm not sure anything outside of forgeworld will be wounded on less than a 3+. Which is why I'm unsure why people are raving about him as a force multiplier, when most lists using him as one would be better served by a different combination.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
SilverAlien, you DO know the difference between rerolling misses of 1s, and rerolling ALL failed to-wound rolls, right?

The mathematical difference?

The only time "reroll 1s" is the same as "reroll everything" is if you hit on 2+. Most marine models don't hit on two plus, as a result, "reroll everything" is twice as effective for marines. And three times as effective if those marines are firing heavy weapons after moving.

Or to put it more bluntly; if your captain gives you reroll ones, half of your marines' misses aren't rerolled.

The same is true of rerolling wounds. If you reroll to-wound rolls of ones, the only time this is equivalent to rerolling all wounds is if you're wounding on a 2+. When wounding on a 3+, rerolling all failed wounds is twice as effective; on a 4+, three times more, on a 5+, four times more, on a 6+, five times more.

Yes and I'm also totally able to recognize that paying 100 extra points (or more) to go from rerolling ones to rerolling ones and twos isn't going to be worth the cost. Which is what generally is happening if a vehicle is firing its weapons at the correct target. Particularly with lascannons I'm not sure anything outside of forgeworld will be wounded on less than a 3+. Which is why I'm unsure why people are raving about him as a force multiplier, when most lists using him as one would be better served by a different combination.

As a non-Imperium player. for the most part, I would happily shank someone to half the buffs of Guilliman available to me. For example, the Tau Commander can give re-roll all hits within six inches, once per game(regardless of the number of commanders you bring), if nothing moves. Even ignoring his damned impressive durability outside of being a character, his melee badassery, and decent ranged potential, leadership and movement buff... I'd kill just to have the commander ability be always on with no restrictions like his, not even considering the simply amazing reroll to wound! There are factions that do not have a single way to reroll to wound. Ghilliman is an insane force multiplier, even ignoring everything else, and offense will always outdo defense in these games. It doesn't matter if you have a 2+ invulnerable rerolling ones, that's not as good as not being targeted at all because the thing trying to hurt you is dead.

There's a huge difference between, "I have a good chance of killing that thing" and "barring insanely unlucky rolls, that's dead." Guilliman puts anything Ultramarines into the later category. Personally I agree that things like Lascannons are potentially wasted with him rather than the combination you listed above, but there are a lot of guns that roll a lot of dice instead, and those are the ones that can be terrifying, because you can pour fire from things that aren't meant to kill that thing, and still kill it! He turns Assault Cannons into decent anti-tank weapons. Not point for point the best, but still damned scary just based off of number of shots and a now good likely hood of rolling those wounds.

SilverAlien wrote:
Yes and I'm also totally able to recognize that paying 100 extra points (or more) to go from rerolling ones to rerolling ones and twos isn't going to be worth the cost.

It's a steal, really. I wish sisters had a buff unit as strong and durable as Guililman, without it actually having to be guilliman (ew, cross-faction armies). No, Celestine isn't a buff unit. She's a tarpit.

Hell, even scout snipers are a force to be reckoned with near Guiliman. Not only do they get more hits, they also get more chances to get additional mortal wounds from rerolling all failed to-wound rolls (and against MEQ, that's 1s, 2s, and 3s, meaning half their hits will roll twice to try to get a six). .

Other people have covered the main points endlessly;

-rr ALL hit+wound rolls for all SM units
-rr all 1's, hit+wound in double size area, for ENTIRE Imperial army
-melee beatstick
-can't be focused at ALL, until everything else around him is dead
-gets back up even if you manage to take him down
-+3 CP, and can get CP back
-CHEAP for everything he provides - even if he just provided the first 2 points, he'd still be worth taking at his points

The biggest thing that hasn't been covered though:

-Other armies simply don't have a unit equal to Guilliman

If every army had a Guilliman level character (especially at that points cost); they'd be an auto include in pretty much every army - but, everyone would have one. If they're going to keep RG as is, at least give him to everyone else too.

The biggest issue is that the favored faction of GW gets the most powerful leader, in melee, shooting, and command - for minimal points cost for EVERYTHING he provides.

Ix_Tab wrote:

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
Its a combination. He gives all of that buffing on top of being a combat monster who is incredibly hard to remove, then has the chance to come back. The total package is just nuts. Most people spend so much of their army just trying to shift or bring him down.
I usually kill him with a Swarmlord and hope he doesn't come back.

Attacking him with something like a Swarmlord seems like a bad idea, if you kill him he uses only in death does duty end and kills you some % of the time (expected damage is a little over 10) then he stands back up 75% having used only the cp he brings with him (and gets 1/3 cp back)

Yeah it does seem that way now. Haven't played against him since the Codex came out. He will be particularly problematic now.

Auto-lose if he dies, and he has to be your warlord.

Fixed!

zerosignal wrote:
Auto-lose if he dies, and he has to be your warlord.

Fixed!

Actually, if you made him something like 15 wounds and way tougher, I'd be okay with this.

That way, you can make him real Primarch-level (ridiculously scary - huge wounds, like a tank, great saves, powerful weapons, etc) but also put a big target on his head (appropriately) as well as forcing him to be your Warlord (also appropriate).

zerosignal wrote:
Auto-lose if he dies, and he has to be your warlord.

Fixed!

Phase Out for Ultramarines.

Guilliman is generally surrounded by lascannon shots.

The majority of things are wounded on 3's by them.

Guilliman lets you reroll 1's and 2's.

Azrael + Lieutenant is only 12.5% less effective than Guilliman when it comes to shooting. But also gives a 4++ and costs less points. Additionally, that's 2 HQs, rather than 1 LOW, so you've got more points back since you don't need to fulfill as much force org.

Playtest it, see how he does for you. I've found Azrael to be far more dominant.

I'm just wondering since the majority of people are talking about Guilliman's buffs from the position of him being laced in a gun line army if this is what everyone has seen in terms of his practical application?

If so you should all feel rather pleased you've not had to deal with a cc Guilliman list. I've found that if you play smart and surround him with Terminators and Dreads keeping them just within his bubble is even more effective.

That being said I have to say that Calgar with Honour guard to tank his wounds, Ancient with Banner of the Emperor Ascendent, and a Lieutenant is actually probably just as good if not better at damage output and even buffing in a lot of circumstances.

A melee army around Guilliman would move, what, 8" a turn? That doesn't sound very threatening.

 Marmatag wrote:
Guilliman is generally surrounded by lascannon shots.

The majority of things are wounded on 3's by them.

Guilliman lets you reroll 1's and 2's.

Azrael + Lieutenant is only 12.5% less effective than Guilliman when it comes to shooting. But also gives a 4++ and costs less points. Additionally, that's 2 HQs, rather than 1 LOW, so you've got more points back since you don't need to fulfill as much force org.

Playtest it, see how he does for you. I've found Azrael to be far more dominant.

"Guilliman is fine, Azrael is more op"
Im a Dark Ángel player and this is BS. Both should be nerfed.

zerosignal wrote:
Auto-lose if he dies, and he has to be your warlord.

Fixed!

I could see him giving out some vp when he drops like old tau ethereals.

The funny thing about everyone arguing that Az is just as broken as Girly...

Doesn't realize that they are arguing that Az is just as... OVERPOWERED as Girly, and he should be NERFED like Girly...