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Made in gb
Worthiest of Warlock Engineers






preston

So, given the recent ITS buffs to TAG's what does Dakka make of the iconic 'big' units of Infinity?
For me the Tag is still a bit of a double edged sword. Sure, it can be amazing and ruin my opponents day, but they are usually extremely expensive and take up a big chunk of my list, and if they go down, well....
Compare this to a full Core link team which usually costs a bit more (unless its basic infantry, but then who the hell runs a Fusilier or Alguacile link?) but also comes with major buffs, 5 orders to power it as opposed to one, has a far higher survive-ability (even more so if it is a HI link) and offers far more versatility, as well as (usually) several specialist profiles.

On the other hand TAG's usually cost 80+ points, and are far more limited in their application, as well as requiring other units to propel them. I know that there are some cheaper 'light' TAG's such as the Anaconda or the Gecko, but these are under a similar case. TAG's are vulnerable to MULTI weapons, or high Damage DA/EXP + AP weapons, and can be taken out with a single major hit and many hacking programs can cause the TAG to stop, eject its pilot or even become the enemies puppet. Even worse, units in the Combined Army can take the TAG over with a single hit.
That said the TAG is an impressive model, and something that can really scare the opponent, or provide a tough multi wound specialist to push up the board and take the objective. They can bully or beatstick and typically carry several heavy weapons, and when run correctly can be a nightmare, especially as all their weapons are now at +1 Damage thanks to the new ITS rules. That said, they are still extremely expensive, and one can argue that a well-built Link team is a better choice, or if you must have a heavy hitter then a Super-Heavy Infantry (Like a Kriza, Swiss Guard, etc)

So, what are your opinions on the matter?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/581001.page#6570095don't click this link...
8th of the Keepers of the PDF of that RPG which shall not be named. Look not into that which defies decency.
 Crimson Devil wrote:
7th edition 40k is a lot like BDSM these days. Only play with people you know and develop a safe word for when things get too intense. And It doesn't hurt to be a sadist or masochist as well.

DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
 
   
Made in us
Stubborn Hammerer





I almost always run a TAG (specifically the Seraph, as a Military Orders player, although in season 8 I would run Scarface instead/with it)

I wouldn't personally recommend it, unless you use it as an opportunity to get familiar with the units. Games do not go well for me and almost every single time I wish I hadn't spent 82pts on something that ate 4-5 of my opponent's orders turn 1 (if they possess it, it usually eats 6-7 as they try to turn against my own forces and give up when they realize they aren't even scratching me...)

TAGs have an enormous number of weaknesses which I feel are not compensated for by the ITS8-9 buffs and you'd be better off running a Kriza or Swiss Guard in almost every case (but that's not going to stop me from running them...)
   
Made in gb
Highlord of Terra






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

The answer is sometimes. It adds a lot of variety to us top end units, especially if you know you will be facing them, but not always.

n'oublie jamais

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






You have to build around them and, to some extent, protect them. That said, if you run them well (do not commit to the midline until late in the game, engage targets at long range, protect Total Cover areas within 8" of the tag with other models, and watch its back) they are very very tough. A strong first turn TAG rampage can really set the tone for the game but if you can't get it back to your lines before you run out of orders, you're probably going to lose it.

They play differently than most other units, but they're very powerful. In the new season, I think they play very much "as intended."

Tier 1 is the new Tactical.

My IDF-Themed Guard Army P&M Blog:

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Made in de
Hacking Interventor





Germany

Convince your opponent to field a TAG, possess it and get all the fun for free
Doesn't work with an Avatar though...

   
Made in us
Sniping Hexa





Some small city in nowhere, Illinois,United States

Taking a TAG is a huge investment, since it requires you to have either a hacker or mechanic to take it (and usually you want both to protect you from the Infowar and repair it). Along with that it is usually a third of your list in a 300 point game, so you are putting a heavy investment in taking a TAG.

But are they necessary? No, not at all. You can absolutely do pretty well at the 300 pts level without a TAG, but they are just a strong fear piece is the best way to look at it. However, take consideration when building your list to take some anti-TAG weaponry in case your opponent does bring one. Along with this, they can suffer possession or being hacked so it may not work out for you.

If you feel the need to try one out, I say do it if your faction has a relatively good TAG. Otherwise your heavy Infantry will be able to do a TAGs role just fine in most respects.

My personal blog. Aimed at the hobby and other things of interest to me

The obligatory non-40K/non-Warmahordes player in the forum.
Hobby Goals and Resolution of 2017: Paint at least 95% of my collection (even if getting new items). Buy small items only at 70% complete.
 
   
Made in gb
Worthiest of Warlock Engineers






preston

So, thankyou for the replies, it has been a little enlightening, but firstly I think I will share my own experiences with TAG's and reasons for this musings.
Firstly, I play Nomads (or Bromads to fellow Bromads) and I do possess a TAG in the form of the Lizard MBT. It is a versatile piece, mounting a MULTI-HMG and either a HGL or a HFT and has the basic TAG statline, as well as a specop SMG wielding pilot. Nice, right?
Well, she comes in at a heft 87 points plus 2-2.5 SWC, depending on secondary weapon choice, and requires (as anakosyke22 mentioned) Hacker and Engineer support, bringing the total cost to 122 points/2.5-3 SWC, and that is assuming that I go for the cheapest Hacker available, althoughmore often then not I will bring a Interventor as they have more of a punch when it comes to Exorcising her, bringing the cost too 130 points. For 130 points, or nearly half my list, I have 3 orders and a powerhouse.
Now lets say I bring a Riot Grrls Link. The standard Spec-op+MULTI rifle+BSG&Tinbot+ML+Spitfire. For 159 points/4SWC I have 5 orders and a specialist all with major bonuses to their shots and actions capable of dealing with a variety of threats.
The Riot Grrls cost more than the TAg itself, but once you factor in the support it needs they only actually cost 29 points more. They have a specialist, can handle all threats and possess more 'wounds' than the TAG. They also have MSV1's and gain +1 Burst and +3 to most skills, and possess a Deflector L2, making them very difficult to hack. They also have 5 orders and pretty much provide their own fire support.

In my experience, out of these two, the TAG tends to be the worst off. Its size makes it a priority target but it struggles to bring enough models with it to effectively position itself for the ARO, which means it relies on killing enough first. If it goes down then the game is pretty much over. In the several games I have used my Lizard it has only really functioned well in two, and in both its role was pretty much reduced too 'glorified turret' with it being sat in cover whilst in Suppressive Fire", something which cold have been performed adequately by the far cheaper Sin Eater or Reaction Zond. in the other games it either performed abysmally or was effectively penned in with multiple threats.

This said, I have seen a TAG used effectively. My regular CA opponent has a Sphinx which really works well as an aggressive piece, primarily due to its ability to wander around in marker state. However, this all said it does seem to me that the only TAG's worth taking are the really cheap ones or the ones possessing enough gimicks to make the useable (such as TO, MSV, etc). Or the underpriced ones like the Maghareba Guard and O-Yoiri.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/581001.page#6570095don't click this link...
8th of the Keepers of the PDF of that RPG which shall not be named. Look not into that which defies decency.
 Crimson Devil wrote:
7th edition 40k is a lot like BDSM these days. Only play with people you know and develop a safe word for when things get too intense. And It doesn't hurt to be a sadist or masochist as well.

DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
 
   
Made in us
Sniping Hexa





Some small city in nowhere, Illinois,United States

 master of ordinance wrote:
So, thankyou for the replies, it has been a little enlightening, but firstly I think I will share my own experiences with TAG's and reasons for this musings.
Firstly, I play Nomads (or Bromads to fellow Bromads) and I do possess a TAG in the form of the Lizard MBT. It is a versatile piece, mounting a MULTI-HMG and either a HGL or a HFT and has the basic TAG statline, as well as a specop SMG wielding pilot. Nice, right?
Well, she comes in at a heft 87 points plus 2-2.5 SWC, depending on secondary weapon choice, and requires (as anakosyke22 mentioned) Hacker and Engineer support, bringing the total cost to 122 points/2.5-3 SWC, and that is assuming that I go for the cheapest Hacker available, althoughmore often then not I will bring a Interventor as they have more of a punch when it comes to Exorcising her, bringing the cost too 130 points. For 130 points, or nearly half my list, I have 3 orders and a powerhouse.
Now lets say I bring a Riot Grrls Link. The standard Spec-op+MULTI rifle+BSG&Tinbot+ML+Spitfire. For 159 points/4SWC I have 5 orders and a specialist all with major bonuses to their shots and actions capable of dealing with a variety of threats.
The Riot Grrls cost more than the TAg itself, but once you factor in the support it needs they only actually cost 29 points more. They have a specialist, can handle all threats and possess more 'wounds' than the TAG. They also have MSV1's and gain +1 Burst and +3 to most skills, and possess a Deflector L2, making them very difficult to hack. They also have 5 orders and pretty much provide their own fire support.

In my experience, out of these two, the TAG tends to be the worst off. Its size makes it a priority target but it struggles to bring enough models with it to effectively position itself for the ARO, which means it relies on killing enough first. If it goes down then the game is pretty much over. In the several games I have used my Lizard it has only really functioned well in two, and in both its role was pretty much reduced too 'glorified turret' with it being sat in cover whilst in Suppressive Fire", something which cold have been performed adequately by the far cheaper Sin Eater or Reaction Zond. in the other games it either performed abysmally or was effectively penned in with multiple threats.

This said, I have seen a TAG used effectively. My regular CA opponent has a Sphinx which really works well as an aggressive piece, primarily due to its ability to wander around in marker state. However, this all said it does seem to me that the only TAG's worth taking are the really cheap ones or the ones possessing enough gimicks to make the useable (such as TO, MSV, etc). Or the underpriced ones like the Maghareba Guard and O-Yoiri.


I am a PanO player, so we tend to be spoiled for choice with some really good TAGs (Jotum, Cutter, Dragoes being one of our favorite choices). But not every PanO player is going to want to take TAGs, and I do not want to give too much of the impression TAGs are complete garbage. 2/3 games Jotum has done wonders for me since I used him as a scare piece while I pushed up for objectives (one of those I was able to bounce back from my Jotum being possessed). But I am pointing out that they need a decent amount of support to work, so it may not be everyones cup of tea (and from what I have heard from Nomad players, they usually want to play board control via hacking and white noise zones). So what it can boil down to a few words is this: YMMV.

My personal blog. Aimed at the hobby and other things of interest to me

The obligatory non-40K/non-Warmahordes player in the forum.
Hobby Goals and Resolution of 2017: Paint at least 95% of my collection (even if getting new items). Buy small items only at 70% complete.
 
   
Made in au
Norn Queen






The main issue with TAGs, as mentioned above, is that after you consider support, you probably would have been better off taking a HI link. More bodies on the table means more individual weapons (which is important in the reactive turn), more orders provided, more wounds you can take, easier access to cover and a lot harder to take head on.

They have the drawback of losing effectiveness as they lose members, but with so many more wounds and the need to pie slice to take them on effectively, they're not going to be lowing so many wounds in a turn to be completely useless as a link. If the link also has a Doctor, they can get themselves back up.

Basically, TAGs are outshone by HI links. This is bad for CB, because they sink a lot of development time, both game development and miniature development, into these centerpiece models that just don't sell as well as their HI link boxes.

I'm fully expecting another buff to TAGs next ITS season. I'm guessing they're going to keep buffing them, season by season, until the competitive community is happy with them and sales improve. Hopefully they still show restraint and don't make them no-brainer choices but just worthwhile next to some of the better links.
   
Made in gb
Worthiest of Warlock Engineers






preston

Tanakosyke22 wrote:

I am a PanO player, so we tend to be spoiled for choice with some really good TAGs (Jotum, Cutter, Dragoes being one of our favorite choices). But not every PanO player is going to want to take TAGs, and I do not want to give too much of the impression TAGs are complete garbage. 2/3 games Jotum has done wonders for me since I used him as a scare piece while I pushed up for objectives (one of those I was able to bounce back from my Jotum being possessed). But I am pointing out that they need a decent amount of support to work, so it may not be everyones cup of tea (and from what I have heard from Nomad players, they usually want to play board control via hacking and white noise zones). So what it can boil down to a few words is this: YMMV.

Pano TAG's (in my experience) are average, but have several notables which really stand out anf unction well. Your Jotums is one such with its obscene levels of armour, but the Cutter with its TO, the Tikbalang with its CCW, Superjump and Minelaying and the Ulhans Camo hunter TAG are all very good examples of what makes a TAG good. They have good stats and decent toys which improve their performance but not so much as to make them extortionately expensive. However most TAG's dont have those, and these are the ones I am on about.
There appear to the three categories of TAG, or at least to me there is: The cheap light ones which are essentially buffed up Heavy Infantry such as Gecko's and Anaconda's, the regular MBT ones such as the Squalos or Lizard and the specialist ones such as the Sphynx, Jotums, Iguana and Uhlans.
Of these the first category tends to be relatively cheap and often used as a kind of bully unit - they usually cost the same as HI, or less in some cases. The third also see use as they are good, capable of surviving well, moving about with ease or using any number of tricks on the enemy, doing something unique, etc. The problem lies within the second category, the generic line TAG's that are, well, just too mundane. They are too expensive, especially with support, to be widely used, but they lack the tricks needed to make them work well. It is these that need buffing.

-Loki- wrote:The main issue with TAGs, as mentioned above, is that after you consider support, you probably would have been better off taking a HI link. More bodies on the table means more individual weapons (which is important in the reactive turn), more orders provided, more wounds you can take, easier access to cover and a lot harder to take head on.

They have the drawback of losing effectiveness as they lose members, but with so many more wounds and the need to pie slice to take them on effectively, they're not going to be lowing so many wounds in a turn to be completely useless as a link. If the link also has a Doctor, they can get themselves back up.

Basically, TAGs are outshone by HI links. This is bad for CB, because they sink a lot of development time, both game development and miniature development, into these centerpiece models that just don't sell as well as their HI link boxes.

I'm fully expecting another buff to TAGs next ITS season. I'm guessing they're going to keep buffing them, season by season, until the competitive community is happy with them and sales improve. Hopefully they still show restraint and don't make them no-brainer choices but just worthwhile next to some of the better links.

Pretty much this. HI links are versatile, can have specialists anyway, can usually take more hits and can survive having chunks shot off them and have more buffs, all the while costing about as much as a TAG + support. Even with Fatality L1 (which is really nice BTW) MBT's do not perform as well as HI links.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/581001.page#6570095don't click this link...
8th of the Keepers of the PDF of that RPG which shall not be named. Look not into that which defies decency.
 Crimson Devil wrote:
7th edition 40k is a lot like BDSM these days. Only play with people you know and develop a safe word for when things get too intense. And It doesn't hurt to be a sadist or masochist as well.

DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
 
   
Made in us
Combat Jumping Rasyat






 -Loki- wrote:
The main issue with TAGs, as mentioned above, is that after you consider support, you probably would have been better off taking a HI link. More bodies on the table means more individual weapons (which is important in the reactive turn), more orders provided, more wounds you can take, easier access to cover and a lot harder to take head on.

They have the drawback of losing effectiveness as they lose members, but with so many more wounds and the need to pie slice to take them on effectively, they're not going to be lowing so many wounds in a turn to be completely useless as a link. If the link also has a Doctor, they can get themselves back up.

Basically, TAGs are outshone by HI links. This is bad for CB, because they sink a lot of development time, both game development and miniature development, into these centerpiece models that just don't sell as well as their HI link boxes.

I'm fully expecting another buff to TAGs next ITS season. I'm guessing they're going to keep buffing them, season by season, until the competitive community is happy with them and sales improve. Hopefully they still show restraint and don't make them no-brainer choices but just worthwhile next to some of the better links.
Nah depends on the TAG. No fire team can move as quickly and easily through AROs as a Sphinx. It's also putting all your eggs in the basket, had my Sphinx crit glued by a Dactyl in tourney while going for a Lt kill on Hector. At least it took Ajax 4 orders to hammer apart the Sphinx

 master of ordinance wrote:
Tanakosyke22 wrote:

I am a PanO player, so we tend to be spoiled for choice with some really good TAGs (Jotum, Cutter, Dragoes being one of our favorite choices). But not every PanO player is going to want to take TAGs, and I do not want to give too much of the impression TAGs are complete garbage. 2/3 games Jotum has done wonders for me since I used him as a scare piece while I pushed up for objectives (one of those I was able to bounce back from my Jotum being possessed). But I am pointing out that they need a decent amount of support to work, so it may not be everyones cup of tea (and from what I have heard from Nomad players, they usually want to play board control via hacking and white noise zones). So what it can boil down to a few words is this: YMMV.
There appear to the three categories of TAG, or at least to me there is: The cheap light ones which are essentially buffed up Heavy Infantry such as Gecko's and Anaconda's, the regular MBT ones such as the Squalos or Lizard and the specialist ones such as the Sphynx, Jotums, Iguana and Uhlans.
Of these the first category tends to be relatively cheap and often used as a kind of bully unit - they usually cost the same as HI, or less in some cases. The third also see use as they are good, capable of surviving well, moving about with ease or using any number of tricks on the enemy, doing something unique, etc. The problem lies within the second category, the generic line TAG's that are, well, just too mundane. They are too expensive, especially with support, to be widely used, but they lack the tricks needed to make them work well. It is these that need buffing.
Agree completely with the 3 categories/assessment. Nerfing the HGL range band made it worse since it pushed the Lizard and Squalo into the 2nd category.

I wish CB had made them more unique by placing named specialists pilots in them instead of the generic Specialist Operative. Swapping the O-Yoroi Pilot Foward Observer into the Guija and the Szlamandra's Killer Hacker into the Lizard would have at least made them merit more consideration for objectives.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/06 22:30:22


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






You don't need to take a hacker or engineer to bring a TAG. That is incorrect - on the contrary, a TAG or Hacker (or Dozer for Ariadna) allows you to take Remotes.

RE: TAGs vs. HI links - HI links usually only pack one serious ranged weapon, usually a HMG. Once they lose this weapon, their effectiveness is completely cut. On the other hand, those "Category 2" TAGs or MBTs (according to DaBoarder's terminology) pack a Multi-HMG - much more dangerous in ARO, and more powerful in the active turn.

Another benefit to TAGs vs. HI links is maneuverability - TAGs can vault things that S2 models usually have to walk around. They're also generally faster. HI links put half of your order pool in one area of the board, whereas TAGs are highly mobile and the support models allow you to cover other approaches. The HSN3 change to Link Teams (checking coherency after movement) leads people to pack their linked models in more closely, leaving them open to templates (if the controlling player is following the rules). The other issue is that, while HI are generally 4-4, you usually don't get a full 4" of movement out of them per short skill because all fireteam members have to maintain coherency with the leader.


I'm not saying TAGs are better than HI links - rather, they're different. There are some similarities in terms of play style (don't commit to the midfield until late game, for example) but that's where the similarities end.

Tier 1 is the new Tactical.

My IDF-Themed Guard Army P&M Blog:

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Made in gb
Highlord of Terra






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

I disagree.

Hackers are needed for a TAG so you can protect it from hacking.

Engineers are not needed but recommended for more expensive TAG so you can repair them.

Both of the above need not be expensive, and thus can be relegated to 'educated cheerleaders' to fuel the TAG activations.

n'oublie jamais

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Right behind you.

 Orlanth wrote:
I disagree.

Hackers are needed for a TAG so you can protect it from hacking.

Engineers are not needed but recommended for more expensive TAG so you can repair them.

Both of the above need not be expensive, and thus can be relegated to 'educated cheerleaders' to fuel the TAG activations.

Engineers absolutely, 100% are needed--not just because of being able to repair them but for being able to remove certain status effects like Adhesive Launchers glue-gunning your robodeathmachine down.

This is one of the big reasons why PanO players complain so much about having to rely strictly on the exceedingly lackluster Machinist.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/13 00:50:34


 
   
Made in gb
Worthiest of Warlock Engineers






preston

Both are needed and that is where the major problem comes in as they bump the already expensive pricetag of the TAG up even further, to the point that you might as well have taken that HI link team instead.

On a side note, how come the Maghariba Guard is only 70ish points when every other Category 2 TAG is 89+ points? Its got the same loadout and stats as the others and it has a Paramedic pilot (as id Haqq needed any more doctors).

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/581001.page#6570095don't click this link...
8th of the Keepers of the PDF of that RPG which shall not be named. Look not into that which defies decency.
 Crimson Devil wrote:
7th edition 40k is a lot like BDSM these days. Only play with people you know and develop a safe word for when things get too intense. And It doesn't hurt to be a sadist or masochist as well.

DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
 
   
Made in gb
Highlord of Terra






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

 Kanluwen wrote:
 Orlanth wrote:
I disagree.

Hackers are needed for a TAG so you can protect it from hacking.

Engineers are not needed but recommended for more expensive TAG so you can repair them.

Both of the above need not be expensive, and thus can be relegated to 'educated cheerleaders' to fuel the TAG activations.

Engineers absolutely, 100% are needed--not just because of being able to repair them but for being able to remove certain status effects like Adhesive Launchers glue-gunning your robodeathmachine down.

This is one of the big reasons why PanO players complain so much about having to rely strictly on the exceedingly lackluster Machinist.


I broadly concur, but consider the engineer recommended rather than essential because you can mitigate the status effects in play with your TAG. Hackers however bypass LOS, do the same or worse and require a defensive hacker on the job to counter.
Even IMM-2 which is pretty scary is hard to pull off, if it can target the TAG the TAG can target it, special ammo units with glue rounds etc would be at the top of the list of those things needing to die. Not foolproof but workable, and if you lose your engineer (who has to get in base contact with your TAG) or never had one to begin with you can mitigate with maneuver play. A decent combat hacker on the other hand can hide and still threaten most of the board through relays, Fast Pandas etc and you must have a hacker, must hide him but allow him to keep his activation to himself if the threat is real.

I cannot say always take an engineer because its a crutch, engineers need to be exposed and are easy to lose, you MUST plan on the assumption that if your TAG can be immobilised it will be, and any engineer sent to rescue will be shot. Then you realise you need to play your TAG as if you had no engineer, and consider it a bonus if you do.

n'oublie jamais

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
 
   
Made in us
Combat Jumping Rasyat






 master of ordinance wrote:
On a side note, how come the Maghariba Guard is only 70ish points when every other Category 2 TAG is 89+ points? Its got the same loadout and stats as the others and it has a Paramedic pilot (as id Haqq needed any more doctors).
Larger silhouette makes it harder to obtain partial or total cover.
   
Made in gb
Worthiest of Warlock Engineers






preston

avantgarde wrote:
 master of ordinance wrote:
On a side note, how come the Maghariba Guard is only 70ish points when every other Category 2 TAG is 89+ points? Its got the same loadout and stats as the others and it has a Paramedic pilot (as id Haqq needed any more doctors).
Larger silhouette makes it harder to obtain partial or total cover.

That.... That sort of makes sense, but at the same time it does still feel like Haqq getting things that are blatantly better than their other Human counterparts purely because they are Haqq.

Orlanth wrote:
I broadly concur, but consider the engineer recommended rather than essential because you can mitigate the status effects in play with your TAG. Hackers however bypass LOS, do the same or worse and require a defensive hacker on the job to counter.
Even IMM-2 which is pretty scary is hard to pull off, if it can target the TAG the TAG can target it, special ammo units with glue rounds etc would be at the top of the list of those things needing to die. Not foolproof but workable, and if you lose your engineer (who has to get in base contact with your TAG) or never had one to begin with you can mitigate with maneuver play. A decent combat hacker on the other hand can hide and still threaten most of the board through relays, Fast Pandas etc and you must have a hacker, must hide him but allow him to keep his activation to himself if the threat is real.

I cannot say always take an engineer because its a crutch, engineers need to be exposed and are easy to lose, you MUST plan on the assumption that if your TAG can be immobilised it will be, and any engineer sent to rescue will be shot. Then you realise you need to play your TAG as if you had no engineer, and consider it a bonus if you do.

In my general experience the Engineer is absolutely essential. Your TAG is going to take damage, it is going to be hacked and put into IMMx, it is going to be glued. All it takes is a couple of lucky criticals or bad saves and you can remove that TAG from the board, along with nearly a third of your army. The TAG is your list and without it your chances drop rapidly.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/581001.page#6570095don't click this link...
8th of the Keepers of the PDF of that RPG which shall not be named. Look not into that which defies decency.
 Crimson Devil wrote:
7th edition 40k is a lot like BDSM these days. Only play with people you know and develop a safe word for when things get too intense. And It doesn't hurt to be a sadist or masochist as well.

DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Orlanth wrote:
I disagree.

Hackers are needed for a TAG so you can protect it from hacking.

Engineers are not needed but recommended for more expensive TAG so you can repair them.

Both of the above need not be expensive, and thus can be relegated to 'educated cheerleaders' to fuel the TAG activations.


You are using the word "needed" incorrectly. I was responding to a post that incorrectly cited a rule (that you must take A in order to take B) to provide clarification. Useful? Yes. Required? No.

Typically I take an Engineer but the Hacker is more situational. You can reset out of Immobilized state from hacking attacks whereas you can't break the effect of Adhesive ammo without an Engineer. As for points, I'd rather protect my TAG with 20 points worth of Ghazis than one 20 point Hacker (and usually do).

If people are building TAG lists that require survival of the TAG in order to work, those lists are too brittle and skewed. You should have at least 3 sources of strong offensive threat at 300 points. Last time I ran a TAG, I lost it and Tarik first turn to a nasty alpha strike and still won.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/17 20:27:08


Tier 1 is the new Tactical.

My IDF-Themed Guard Army P&M Blog:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/355940.page 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




The Hacker Engineer argument is a bit weird. Sure you might not be taking an Engineer before but a few points over a standard LI isn't a massive issue especially to keep your beat stick running. You should be taking a Hacker most of the time anyway IMO, so not really a TAG tax at all.

Ultimately in the right hands TAGs can be very devastating.

Gaming in Kent
hydragamingclub.freeforums.org
twitter - bobmanRN - wargames rambling 
   
Made in us
Painting Within the Lines






I am always surprised how well my Marut list performs. I obviously have tons of support for it (Smoke, engineers, killer hackers for protection, etc). Plus Strategos Lvl3 is amazing.


 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Mallax Untain






Svalarheima, MA

I'd like to see that Marut list, please!

Also, I'd like to see a good 300 point Jotum based list for "today's Infinity", as I'm a rookie AND out of touch with the current state of the game...

Nil nos tremefacit.
 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Right behind you.

 Alpharius wrote:
I'd like to see that Marut list, please!

Also, I'd like to see a good 300 point Jotum based list for "today's Infinity", as I'm a rookie AND out of touch with the current state of the game...

Do you want it to be a vanilla list or "Svalarheima lite"?

Because this is a "Svalarheima Lite" list I keep saved:
PanOceania
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

10
JOTUM Lieutenant MULTI HMG + Heavy Flamethrower, D.E.P. / . (3 | 103)
CRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. ()
NISSE Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 38)
NISSE MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 34)
FUSILIER (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
FUSILIER Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
FUSILIER HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 18)
MACHINIST Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
PEACEMAKER Heavy Shotgun + AUXBOT_3 / Electric Pulse. (0 | 21)
AUXBOT_3 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4)
BULLETEER Heavy Shotgun / Electric Pulse. (0 | 17)

6 SWC | 280 Points

Open in Infinity Army

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/18 19:53:56


 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Mallax Untain






Svalarheima, MA

What's the Crabbot do now?

And yeah, Svalarheima-Lite is preferred - but not necessary!

Nil nos tremefacit.
 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Right behind you.

 Alpharius wrote:
What's the Crabbot do now?

And yeah, Svalarheima-Lite is preferred - but not necessary!

Crabbots are the PanO equivalent of a Pilot.
They have Specialist Operative and Remote Pilot.
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Mallax Untain






Svalarheima, MA

TAG Line's changes are...lost on me.

I have no regular Infinity group and I've fallen behind on keeping up with new rules...

Nil nos tremefacit.
 
   
Made in us
Combat Jumping Ragik






Beyond the Beltway

Given CB's current propensity to release new rules, that's not hard to do, fall behind. "TAG-line" was last year's ITS. This year it is "Treason". You'll need to know the new Fatality (level 1) skill for this year's ITS. All TAGs have it now in ITS.

REQUIREMENTS
This Special Skill can only be used if the user has declared a BS Attack using the BS Attribute.
EFFECTS
This Special Skill applies a MOD of +1 to the Damage value of the BS Weapon of its user.

The ITS packet has 4 pre-generated Svalarheim lists that include Jotums. I get the impression that Hospitaller Knights will be in the sectorial, so a quick change to the list Kan posted...

PanOceania
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

10
JOTUM Lieutenant MULTI HMG + Heavy Flamethrower, D.E.P. / . (3 | 103)
CRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. ()
NISSE Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 38)
NISSE MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 34)
FUSILIER (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
FUSILIER Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
FUSILIER HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 18)
FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
MACHINIST Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 37)
BULLETEER Heavy Shotgun / Electric Pulse. (0 | 17)

6 SWC | 299 Points

Open in Infinity Army

I dropped the Peacemaker. In my experience with the unit, in ASA, it needs a few friends, like the Montesa and a Naga, to work well. OTOH, The Bulleteer heavy shotgun is always a boss.

I think I'll give this list a try some time. I don't play vanilla Pan-O, so I have no idea how well a Hospitaller Knight plays.


 
   
Made in us
Painting Within the Lines






 Alpharius wrote:
I'd like to see that Marut list, please!

Also, I'd like to see a good 300 point Jotum based list for "today's Infinity", as I'm a rookie AND out of touch with the current state of the game...


I have never seen a Jotum on the table. I would love to face one someday.

Here's my Marut list I ran at a local ITS event.

One group with 11 orders thanks to Strategos Lvl3

My local Warcor almost always allows SpecOps in our tournaments.

300 Pt GT List#1
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

10
MARUT Lieutenant (Strategos L3) MULTI HMG, Heavy Flamethrower, Nanopulser / AP CCW. (3 | 120)
KARKATA Flash Pulse / Knife. (0 | 0)
DANAVAS Hacker (Hacking Device Plus. UPGRADE: Maestro) Combi Rifle + Pitcher / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 25)
ZAYIN Rebot HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 26)
NAGA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30)
PROXY Mk.1 Engineer Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
PROXY Mk.2 MULTI Sniper Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 24)
PROXY Mk.5 (Forward Observer) 2 Submachine Guns, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
CHANDRA Spec-Ops (12 XP) (Engineer, Chain of Command, Minelayer) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
LAMEDH Rebot Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
MYRMIDON Chain Rifle, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 16)
THORAKITES (Forward Observer, 360º Visor) Submachine gun, Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
NETROD . (0 | 4)

6 SWC | 300 Points

Open in Infinity Army

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/19 14:17:37



 
   
 
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