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Made in jp
Incorporating Wet-Blending





Japan

Personally, I find the "blandness"-- universality might be a better word-- to be a feature, not a bug. It's a lot like DBA, in that Blades, for example, perform pretty much the same against contemporary opponents, whether they are samurai, Roman legionaries, or Aztec jaguar warriors. Given that every army exists in the same time period, with roughly the same technology, a few special rules here and there and some variation in the profiles provide enough difference, for me anyway.

Now showing Mantic scarecrows and reapers for Vanguard!




Painting total as of 7/18/2019: 66 plus a wooden bridge and gnoll encampment and 28 pieces of Mantic scatter terrain and three fly holes and three farm buildings and a fire pit.


 
   
Made in si
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I don't find it bland at all, all factions still play differently despite the similarity of statlines. And even in AoS there is no functional difference between 20 goblins and a dragon with 20 wounds, since damage spills over and monsters degrade.


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A Dark Place

Yeah the simple variations without resorting to a book full of special rules is one of the things I enjoy about KoW. By far my favourite game at the moment.
Though I do hope there's a rulebook version without all the lore guff, I couldn't care less about another generic fantasy world.

darefsky wrote:Heck I have had times where I have sat down to paint, gotten everything ready, looked at it and went "nope I'm done."
 
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





Belgium

 lord_blackfang wrote:

And even in AoS there is no functional difference between 20 goblins and a dragon with 20 wounds, since damage spills over and monsters degrade.



That's completely false, since they don't degrade the same way and a goblin with one Wound will die as soon as he takes one. The unit of 20 goblins doesn't take the wounds the same way than a dragon in AoS, and their efficiency greatly varies according to the number of wounds they suffer.

On the opposite, in Kings of War, all units take wounds the exact same way and don't degrade at all nor diminish in unit size as they take them. The only thing that can happen is either prevent them from activating or removing them completely once they fail their Morale Check to a certain degree depending on how good their morale is.

I agree Kings of War's main strength is the reason I would call it "bland", but there are also voices that would like more "character" or variations. For example, chariots - the way they're played actually isn't that satisfying for some players : their unit size is often far too great for their efficiency/damage dealing capacity in game. Some would like to make them "exceptions" to some of the core rules to give them a specific role in their army list (in comparison to cavalry/monstruous cavalry).

Just be aware that if you want more specificity/character, like they do in GW's games, it can be to the price of a harder balance. I don't mind at all, since I believe balance doesn't have to be absolute for a game to be good/interesting, but I know others definitely don't feel the same as me.

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KoW does have army wide special rules, which usually are just a standard USR that all units have. All Elves are Elite, all Dwarves are Headstrong, etc. Tweaking those would be the easiest way to really introduce flavor.

One of the problems is that early in second edition, the strongest lists played strongly against type. For example, undead was best served by relying mostly on Vampire Heavy Cavalry (which was crucially not limited by the usual rules for undead) and vampire heroes, which were highly maneuverable, high defense, and thus could shut down much of an enemy battle line. Ogre armies were built around the heavy crossbowmen, not actual ogres. And dragons and equivalent "heavy fliers" were the bane of all.

KOW is balance precisely because it's a bit bland. As a rule, the most interesting outlier units are the least balanced.

My Painted Armies
: Co. B, 37th Praetorian IG: 11,000pts
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KOW Ogres: 4500 points
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Enigmatic Exalted Daemon





Albany, NY

 Sarouan wrote:
Come on, Kings of War players, get ready to get milked !
I know I'm excited to give Mantic money! Since I very rarely buy their minis I legitimately look forward to supporting their books

BLOODFIRE: KOW SALAMANDER REPORTS 
   
Made in se
Been Around the Block




Looking forward to this, Although I gotta admit i'm a bit disappointed there wont be a KS
   
Made in ie
Longtime Dakkanaut






They can't win do a KS people complain that they don't need to do a KS at this stage don't do a KS and people complain they can't get all the goodies.

I believe "The League" is the focus of the next KS so it was probably either that or KoW3. It's good to see KoW move beyond KS and that they can fund new stuff themselves but that will slow down new releases somewhat.

Very interested to see the Northern Alliance HIPS kit.
   
Made in us
Near Golden Daemon Caliber





Affton, MO. USA

If they can do a bundle with a deal like the value people get with a Kickstarter I think people would be happy.

The big problems they have with Kickstarter (in my mind)
1.they get too excited and plan too much but when the numbers aren’t matching their plan they start rolling ahead of the goals and adding everything in to try and get the numbers up. When that doesn’t work they have to change things.
2. As stated in 1, they change stuff post Kickstarter to try and save money they didn’t get. Cheaper (newer materials that they promise will be just as good if not 20x better) plastic/resins.
3. Time table. Too long of a preorder window. Let’s face it, most people see Kickstarter as a preorder system. When people pay ahead and then it takes longer, even longer than the estimate plus Kickstarter delay time, then it instantly sours. They’ve run how many kickstarters and problem should keep popping up.
4. No support post Kickstarter. There are 5FLGS within an hours drive of my house, plus Miniaturemarket’s retail shop and no one carries Mantic to any sort of extent. All this was because they couldn’t get the product cheaper than Kickstarter prices and they got NO support from Mantic. Unless people get a bunch of friends to go in heavy in the Kickstarter then they just won’t have people to play against unless they shell out the money for multiple books and accessories. At which time they could have just bought GW product and had plenty of opponents to play.

LOL, Theo your mind is an amazing place, never change.-camkierhi 9/19/13
I cant believe theo is right.. damn. -comradepanda 9/26/13
None of the strange ideas we had about you involved your sexual orientation..........-Monkeytroll 12/10/13

I'd put you on ignore for that comment, if I could...Alpharius 2/11/14 
   
Made in us
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot





Also interested in the Northern Alliance and would like to see Ophidia too. My thoughts is that while they need to maintain army lists for WHFB refugees (as that is part of KoW's draw), they should be pushing their armies. So bring out NA and Ophidia, and elaborate on Trident Realms, Nightstalkers et al, but other than legacy support for Empire, Skaven etc keep that to a minimum. Little to no profit in supporting another company's defunct product line.

 DaveC wrote:
They can't win do a KS people complain that they don't need to do a KS at this stage don't do a KS and people complain they can't get all the goodies.

I believe "The League" is the focus of the next KS so it was probably either that or KoW3. It's good to see KoW move beyond KS and that they can fund new stuff themselves but that will slow down new releases somewhat.

Very interested to see the Northern Alliance HIPS kit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/06 02:15:52


Kings of War: Abyssal Dwarves, Dwarves, Elves, Undead
Kings of War Historical: Macedonian
Dropzone Commander: PHR
Blood Angels Necron [WiP]

 
   
Made in au
Terrifying Doombull





Melbourne .au

 mattjgilbert wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
Sad that some factions (betting that all those without any Mantic models) are being put on hiatus.
No they aren't. You'll just have to wait about 6 or 7 weeks. There will be 26 armies by the end of the year.


How will this work? Also, what's all this about only partial army lists being provided in the BRB? Unsubstantiated rumours, I hope?

   
Made in us
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North Carolina

 Azazelx wrote:
 mattjgilbert wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
Sad that some factions (betting that all those without any Mantic models) are being put on hiatus.
No they aren't. You'll just have to wait about 6 or 7 weeks. There will be 26 armies by the end of the year.


How will this work? Also, what's all this about only partial army lists being provided in the BRB? Unsubstantiated rumours, I hope?


The Mantic blog post says that the 380 page BRB for KoW 3rdEd will have 14 army factions in it and they will also release a supplement book with an additional 12 faction lists in it for a total of 26 factions. No idea why they would release the supplement two months after the BRB instead of a simultaneous release.

Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
 
   
Made in za
Infiltrating Naga





South Africa

Sarouan wrote:Come on, Kings of War players, get ready to get milked ! Good thing I didn't bother with Clash of Kings 2019, by the way.

Right, selling an inexpensive book that allows you to play with models from other companies is really milking players.
There are 11 armies in the current rulebook, so adding Trident Realm, Night-stalkers and Northern Alliance make 14. That means it's split between Mantic created and/or generic fantasy that Mantic have models for and armies from "somewhere else".

Smellingsalts wrote:The biggest thing they could do is make it less vanilla. I played the game for a while until I realized that all armies were the same. The special rules attached to units did not feel fluffy. The magic did not have the variance and flavor of WHFB, neither the spells nor the magic items. Basically it came down to getting your Monstrous cav stuck in, and all of them had the same magic item (caterpillar potion). It doesn't help that Mantic models are god-awful (except for maybe some of the new vanguard sculpts). All of the people that I know that play this game use GW models, or models from other companies. In fact, I am often told that the reason that they like this game is that they can use models from any company, I'm sure Mantic loves to hear that! Honestly, you could play this game with appropriately sized movement trays, no models needed. You can also play this game one person at a time, no interaction during a turn required. When I played, we called the other guys turn the "Beer Phase", because you could literally walk off and go have a beer while your opponent took his turn. Let's hope they change the game substantially, otherwise I'll be looking to Conquest to save rank and flank fantasy gaming.

That's a terrible idea. That current fan base likes the game for what it is. The rules tweaks and additions tested in Clash of Kings rolled into the core rules is the good move.
You obviously give KoW much of a look. You sound like one of those people who said AoS is just a big scrum in the middle of the board; that's was only true if you don't play scenarios or try some tactics.

Kings of War is designed to be simple, easy to learn and balanced. Instead of taking on extra rules to entertain you, Mantic made a game where outplaying your opponent gives the game depth. That's why the seemingly small differences between units actually make a noticeable difference, if you know the game well enough. That isn't for everyone, but trying to make a game for everyone leaves you with a mess that no one is really happy with. Mantic know what kind of player enjoys their game and makes it accordingly. I hope that Mantic is sensible enough to make a game for their players instead of trying to appease people who don't like their game or style, like you.

lord_blackfang wrote:I don't find it bland at all, all factions still play differently despite the similarity of statlines. And even in AoS there is no functional difference between 20 goblins and a dragon with 20 wounds, since damage spills over and monsters degrade.

Agreed (onKoW) a small defference like +1 Ne across the board for Varangur make the army noticeably tougher.
Your point on AoS isn't entirely wrong, but a bit overgeneralized. That undermines out point on the small differences and nuance that KoW relies on, by dismissing the not so subtle difference between units and armies in GW games. #justsaying

Boss Salvage wrote:
 Sarouan wrote:
Come on, Kings of War players, get ready to get milked !
I know I'm excited to give Mantic money! Since I very rarely buy their minis I legitimately look forward to supporting their books

Agreed!
I'm busy converting my dwarf army to be all Mantic though.


Resurrectionists
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Belgium

 DarkBlack wrote:
Sarouan wrote:Come on, Kings of War players, get ready to get milked ! Good thing I didn't bother with Clash of Kings 2019, by the way.

Right, selling an inexpensive book that allows you to play with models from other companies is really milking players.


I was being facetious. Besides, let's remind you that Mantic Games could also have provided free rules for CoK 2019 on a PDF on their website, but they instead pushed for a book every year and hunted down any leak that happened on the net when they could. This is a marketing issue, and it was on purpose to force people to buy a book every year. It doesn't make it better if Mantic Games does it.

And it may be inexpensive to you, but it's still money you have to give them for a book, just a book, so that you have all the upgraded rules, especially for tournaments. It's a marketing trick again. It's really funny that when GW sells a new edition, it's milking their fanbase, but when Mantic Games is doing it, no it isn't ? It's the same damn thing, people. You can justify all you want, though. It doesn't change the fact they're doing it.

But it doesn't really matter, to be honest. It's still just a book, right ? And you have 14 army lists inside, so it's not like you have to put too much money into it. I'm more curious about what will be the rule changes (because there will be, otherwise there's no point to bring a third edition after CoK 2019) and I do hope they don't go on the "special rules/exceptions" slope. I believe it's better if they keep KoW simple.



There are 11 armies in the current rulebook, so adding Trident Realm, Night-stalkers and Northern Alliance make 14. That means it's split between Mantic created and/or generic fantasy that Mantic have models for and armies from "somewhere else".


I'm going further and say that Kingdom of Men will be out of the core rules, and they will just put all the armies they sell actually on their webstore plus Northern Alliance for the third edition book - makes 14. That would mean Empire of Dust getting in.

I don't think Mantic Games has the ressources to pull out a lot of new units/armies for the time third edition comes in. And I believe that, showing what they did with Vanguard, they would think better than giving army lists with no Mantic Games miniature to buy for them. I do believe the times Mantic Games was pushing for other miniatures than their own is getting less and less prevalent as years pass on...because, let's be honest, that's the reason KoW was always behind in sales. You can't just let their people use GW miniatures for their games, it's not profitable for Mantic Games in the end.

Cuteness for the Cute Goddess! 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




UK

 Azazelx wrote:
 mattjgilbert wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
Sad that some factions (betting that all those without any Mantic models) are being put on hiatus.
No they aren't. You'll just have to wait about 6 or 7 weeks. There will be 26 armies by the end of the year.


How will this work? Also, what's all this about only partial army lists being provided in the BRB? Unsubstantiated rumours, I hope?
I've not heard that rumour but it's not true. Can you link to where that is? The main rulebook contains 14 complete army lists.
   
Made in us
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Affton, MO. USA

 mattjgilbert wrote:
 Azazelx wrote:
 mattjgilbert wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
Sad that some factions (betting that all those without any Mantic models) are being put on hiatus.
No they aren't. You'll just have to wait about 6 or 7 weeks. There will be 26 armies by the end of the year.


How will this work? Also, what's all this about only partial army lists being provided in the BRB? Unsubstantiated rumours, I hope?
I've not heard that rumour but it's not true. Can you link to where that is? The main rulebook contains 14 complete army lists.


It was in this thread earlier, I read it too and was about o comment on it. The person has since edited it out of their statement.

LOL, Theo your mind is an amazing place, never change.-camkierhi 9/19/13
I cant believe theo is right.. damn. -comradepanda 9/26/13
None of the strange ideas we had about you involved your sexual orientation..........-Monkeytroll 12/10/13

I'd put you on ignore for that comment, if I could...Alpharius 2/11/14 
   
Made in za
Infiltrating Naga





South Africa

 Sarouan wrote:
 DarkBlack wrote:
Sarouan wrote:Come on, Kings of War players, get ready to get milked ! Good thing I didn't bother with Clash of Kings 2019, by the way.

Right, selling an inexpensive book that allows you to play with models from other companies is really milking players.


I was being facetious.

Sure you were, that's totally convincing. You're not arguing there is no argument form you.

Besides, let's remind you that Mantic Games could also have provided free rules for CoK 2019 on a PDF on their website, but they instead pushed for a book every year and hunted down any leak that happened on the net when they could. This is a marketing issue, and it was on purpose to force people to buy a book every year. It doesn't make it better if Mantic Games does it.

And it may be inexpensive to you, but it's still money you have to give them for a book, just a book, so that you have all the upgraded rules, especially for tournaments. It's a marketing trick again. It's really funny that when GW sells a new edition, it's milking their fanbase, but when Mantic Games is doing it, no it isn't ? It's the same damn thing, people. You can justify all you want, though. It doesn't change the fact they're doing it.

I could and am tempted to get into a Mantic vs GW argument, but that's just troll feeding. It's not really the same thing.


Resurrectionists
Nightstalkers
Dwarfs  
   
Made in gb
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Stonecold Gimster






 mattjgilbert wrote:
 Azazelx wrote:

How will this work? Also, what's all this about only partial army lists being provided in the BRB? Unsubstantiated rumours, I hope?
I've not heard that rumour but it's not true. Can you link to where that is? The main rulebook contains 14 complete army lists.

As long as the rest of the army lists aren't released in piecemeal only if you buy the figures. Mantic ruined Vanguard for me and my gaming buds with the X-wing style release schedule. That was one KS I now wished I'd never gone into (As an undead and Orcs player, I'll have to rebuy loads of models I already have from Mantic just to get the cards, or wait months and print some dodgy ones out from a website)

My Painting Blog: http://gimgamgoo.com/
Currently most played: Silent Death, Beyond the Gates of Antares, Dracula's America, Bolt Action, X-Wing 
   
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Smellingsalts wrote:The biggest thing they could do is make it less vanilla. I played the game for a while until I realized that all armies were the same. The special rules attached to units did not feel fluffy. The magic did not have the variance and flavor of WHFB, neither the spells nor the magic items. Basically it came down to getting your Monstrous cav stuck in, and all of them had the same magic item (caterpillar potion). It doesn't help that Mantic models are god-awful (except for maybe some of the new vanguard sculpts). All of the people that I know that play this game use GW models, or models from other companies. In fact, I am often told that the reason that they like this game is that they can use models from any company, I'm sure Mantic loves to hear that! Honestly, you could play this game with appropriately sized movement trays, no models needed. You can also play this game one person at a time, no interaction during a turn required. When I played, we called the other guys turn the "Beer Phase", because you could literally walk off and go have a beer while your opponent took his turn. Let's hope they change the game substantially, otherwise I'll be looking to Conquest to save rank and flank fantasy gaming.

Deep Black said "That's a terrible idea. That current fan base likes the game for what it is. The rules tweaks and additions tested in Clash of Kings rolled into the core rules is the good move.
You obviously give KoW much of a look. You sound like one of those people who said AoS is just a big scrum in the middle of the board; that's was only true if you don't play scenarios or try some tactics.

Kings of War is designed to be simple, easy to learn and balanced. Instead of taking on extra rules to entertain you, Mantic made a game where outplaying your opponent gives the game depth. That's why the seemingly small differences between units actually make a noticeable difference, if you know the game well enough. That isn't for everyone, but trying to make a game for everyone leaves you with a mess that no one is really happy with. Mantic know what kind of player enjoys their game and makes it accordingly. I hope that Mantic is sensible enough to make a game for their players instead of trying to appease people who don't like their game or style, like you."

Let's be honest. Kings of War and Warhammer Fantasy Battle existed simultaneously for some time. In my area, there were people who tried KOW and went back to WHFB. There were no mass defections to KOW from WHFB. Not until WHFB died did people move over to KOW. So all the talk about "I love vanilla" and "balanced rules" didn't exist until WHFB died. Then all those who liked fantasy rank and flank games had only two places to go KOW and 9th Age. So what that tells me is that people preferred WHFB warts and all because it wasn't vanilla. They were willing to put up with rules issues because the detail to spells, magic items, special rules, background etc. made it superior to KOW. Right now, my hope is that this new game, Conquest, will bring back the magic. If not, in 8 more years or so GW will bring back WHFB in some form and you will have mass defections from KOW to the new version of WHFB.

You are also wrong about me giving KOW a closer look. Two of my very good friends play KOW and I really tried to like it and give it a chance. But the game has been dumbed down from WHFB to the point where I just can't enjoy it. Maybe if I had never played WHFB I could have learned to like it, but knowing that there once was a way better game ruins it for me. Also, I play and enjoy AOS. It's not WHFB, it's a simple skirmish game and it's fine for what it does. But for rank and flank fantasy I am looking forwards to Conquest to scratch that itch.


I'm busy converting my dwarf army to be all Mantic though.
   
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South Africa

Smellingsalts wrote:
Let's be honest. Kings of War and Warhammer Fantasy Battle existed simultaneously for some time. In my area, there were people who tried KOW and went back to WHFB. There were no mass defections to KOW from WHFB. Not until WHFB died did people move over to KOW. So all the talk about "I love vanilla" and "balanced rules" didn't exist until WHFB died. Then all those who liked fantasy rank and flank games had only two places to go KOW and 9th Age. So what that tells me is that people preferred WHFB warts and all because it wasn't vanilla. They were willing to put up with rules issues because the detail to spells, magic items, special rules, background etc. made it superior to KOW. Right now, my hope is that this new game, Conquest, will bring back the magic. If not, in 8 more years or so GW will bring back WHFB in some form and you will have mass defections from KOW to the new version of WHFB.

We could also be honest and consider that WHFB failed and KoW is growing.
I've already gone over how KoW isn't everyone's taste. Someone not liking it is anecdotal evidence that just repeats that point.
You've also ignored that popularity and familiarity also governs which games people decide to play. If someone is all set up and know the rules for one game then they're less likely to switch (even to a better game) unless their current game becomes unbearable somehow. How many people play a game already is also a big part, you play what you can find opponents for.
So if someone has to decide between a new game that they like, but have to convince other people to leave their comfort zones, it's easier to just stick to the good enough thing everyone already knows

Claiming one game is superior is meaningless. Different aspect are important to different people. The one thing we all look for in a game (having fun) is entirely subjective and dependent on the other aspects we prefer.
In terms of extra rules, things to choose from and people already plating it, WHFB was ahead of KoW in it's day.
In terms of clean rules, ease of learning, balance (also suitability for competitive play) and being the kind of game I personally enjoy KoW wins hands down.

You are also wrong about me giving KOW a closer look. Two of my very good friends play KOW and I really tried to like it and give it a chance. But the game has been dumbed down from WHFB to the point where I just can't enjoy it. Maybe if I had never played WHFB I could have learned to like it, but knowing that there once was a way better game ruins it for me. Also, I play and enjoy AOS. It's not WHFB, it's a simple skirmish game and it's fine for what it does. But for rank and flank fantasy I am looking forwards to Conquest to scratch that itch.

You very obviously don't understand KoW, it looks a lot like you're judging it buy things it wasn't designed to do and it's not the kind of game for you. Have fun playing conquest, I sincerely hope you enjoy it.


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Belgium

To be honest, at the time Uncharted Empires was out, there were some army lists that were clearly written for WFB players, so that they could come to KoW with their GW armies.

Sure, Mantic Games could make miniatures for those armies, but as time passed on, it is very obvious they can't spend as many ressources as GW to make that many units for so many army lists at the same time. The result was players buying miniatures elsewhere to play these armies.

When I read Mantic's announcement about their new plan for KoW, it really feels that they will be thinking twice before doing another Uncharted Empires (army lists without miniatures). Would make sense if they instead take their time and release army lists when they have some Mantic Games miniatures ready to be sold for them. Like they did with Vanguard, even if players weren't happy of their change of attitude at that time. Also, they should make more units specific for their miniatures, and not just inspiration from what was in WFB army books. It would certainly suck for the players who still used their GW armies, but that's not them who will bring Mantic Games a lot of money.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/07/04 19:43:24


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 Gimgamgoo wrote:
Mantic ruined Vanguard for me and my gaming buds with the X-wing style release schedule. That was one KS I now wished I'd never gone into (As an undead and Orcs player, I'll have to rebuy loads of models I already have from Mantic just to get the cards, or wait months and print some dodgy ones out from a website)


This got me grumpy at the start of Vanguard too, but because of easyarmy I have gotten over this grumpyness.

"What do you want?"
"I'd like to live just long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price. I'd look up at your lifeless eyes and wave like this. Can you and your associates arrange it for me, Mr. Morden?"
Morden and Vir, In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum 
   
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South Africa

 Sarouan wrote:
To be honest, at the time Uncharted Empires was out, there were some army lists that were clearly written for WFB players, so that they could come to KoW with their GW armies.

Sure, Mantic Games could make miniatures for those armies, but as time passed on, it is very obvious they can't spend as many ressources as GW to make that many units for so many army lists at the same time. The result was players buying miniatures elsewhere to play these armies.

When I read Mantic's announcement about their new plan for KoW, it really feels that they will be thinking twice before doing another Uncharted Empires (army lists without miniatures). Would make sense if they instead take their time and release army lists when they have some Mantic Games miniatures ready to be sold for them. Like they did with Vanguard, even if players weren't happy of their change of attitude at that time. Also, they should make more units specific for their miniatures, and not just inspiration from what was in WFB army books. It would certainly suck for the players who still used their GW armies, but that's not them who will bring Mantic Games a lot of money.

The rules in the book and another book with more lists is most likely another Uncharted Empires.
I does indicate that Mantic can't and/or will not make miniatures for those lists.
You're misjudging the value of people just playing the game though. Removing the option to play those armies will alienate a significant part of the player base. Not doing gak like that is why many fans like Mantic, a move like that will alienate those players even if none of their armies get invalidated.

Having lists to accommodate miniatures from other gaming companies also has value because someone simply playing KoW is good for Mantic, even if they don't spend any money on Mantic products.
The popularity of a wargame makes it more successful, the more people play the more likely people are to start playing. Just having more people playing grows communities and those communities appreciate and support Mantic. Being able to start a community with existing armies helps KoW communities start.

Also keep in mind that Mantic have adopted a value for money approach to making miniatures. Many people like the cheaper miniatures, other people want nicer miniatures. By allowing other companies' miniatures Mantic get the best of both. People who like value for money minis and/or just want to support Mantic still buy from Mantic, players who do not still buy books and add to the community (i.e. grow the customer base). I also takes pressure off Mantic becasue they don't have to develop miniatures for everything.


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OMG Dark Black, quit telling me I don't understand KOW or that I'm not familiar with it to justify your points. You don't know anything about me. I know KOW very well and I just don't like it, and empirically there are lots of things not to like. But thank you for your well wishes on my playing Conquest. Let's revisit this argument in several years, by then we will know the fate of KOW and Conquest.
   
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 DarkBlack wrote:

You're misjudging the value of people just playing the game though. Removing the option to play those armies will alienate a significant part of the player base. Not doing gak like that is why many fans like Mantic, a move like that will alienate those players even if none of their armies get invalidated.


I'm not misjudging, I'm just saying people using their GW armies to play at KoW doesn't bring much money to Mantic Games. They don't need to buy miniatures on their web store, after all, they already have everything they need to play. Worse, if they want to add more units, they just buy more GW miniatures instead, since there are no Mantic Games miniatures available and it's more coherent for their armies. Sure, they'll buy the annual book, but I don't think that's how Mantic Games manages to avoid Kickstarters for their projects. I believe Vanguard is the reason of their success they're talking on their blog - and the new armies of Nightstalkers and Basilea that came along.

And yes, a move like that would certainly alienate some of their player base, but the question is would it really hurt Mantic Games on long term ? Change always brings unsatisfaction from a part of the fanbase, anyway. As long as the overal gains are greater than the losses, it may be worth it in the end. You can't satisfy everyone all the time.

They can indeed keep the army lists, but I would expect changes in them and I believe Mantic Games wants to release miniatures for all of them in the end. If they plan for 2020 as well, I think that the extension books may come later than we think, when they have something ready to cover the other armies. Meanwhile, it is possible Mantic would put some temporary army lists on their site like they did for Twilight Kin for so long.



Having lists to accommodate miniatures from other gaming companies also has value because someone simply playing KoW is good for Mantic, even if they don't spend any money on Mantic products.
The popularity of a wargame makes it more successful, the more people play the more likely people are to start playing. Just having more people playing grows communities and those communities appreciate and support Mantic. Being able to start a community with existing armies helps KoW communities start.


It's more complicated than that, actually. First, I'm not that sure KoW is that popular worldwide. It sure has a core fanbase in UK, but outside it's very difficult to see. What we know for sure is that retailers are not that fond of Mantic Games products for reasons already explained on this topic before, and it is still an important engine for recruitment of new blood. When new players see you play with beautiful miniatures that aren't from Mantic Games and are taught by these veterans that they can use any miniature they want, do you really think their first move will be to go to Mantic Games to buy their miniatures ? I'm not so sure, especially when the veteran explains them where to get these beautiful other miniatures for a very fair price. It is awesome for gameplay, I don't deny it (I have a full GW goblin army made for KoW with more than 200 miniatures, hard to play them all on a board but they certainly look awesome when put together), but in term of sales for Mantic Games ? I don't think it brings them as much when someone plays full Mantic Games miniatures with army lists specific to them.

It may be sounding harsh, but I would understand if Mantic Games put the army lists that promote their miniatures first in the core book, then wait to have miniatures ready to come for future army lists later (at least, on the plan). They need to be more retailer friendly too, to help promote the game better. So far, it is their fanbase who has to organize themselves to do that most of the time - and it has its limits. Conquest is already doing the right things on that matter.


Also keep in mind that Mantic have adopted a value for money approach to making miniatures. Many people like the cheaper miniatures, other people want nicer miniatures. By allowing other companies' miniatures Mantic get the best of both. People who like value for money minis and/or just want to support Mantic still buy from Mantic, players who do not still buy books and add to the community (i.e. grow the customer base). I also takes pressure off Mantic becasue they don't have to develop miniatures for everything.


Yes, they have made huge progress so far on their miniatures, and that is very welcome ! I can only dream of them redoing the plastic elves and dwarves to their new standard, really...but I know they certainly can't afford it before some time, given their limited ressources in comparison to GW. What I'm saying is they would sell more if they manage to get specific Mantic Games miniatures for the army lists they provide for third edition. If they do the Uncharted Empire again, they will lose some because some players will already have their armies made with other miniatures the time they get their own on their webstore - and those players will be less likely to buy the Mantic Games ones for the simple reason they don't need them. Of course, there will be always some of them who will buy anyway, or take one unit to complete their collection or any other reason, but that would still be a fraction of what they could have if they had Mantic Games miniatures available at the time the army lists are provided. This was the same effect when GW released army books for WFB with units not having miniatures for months, years or even never - and what happened is that others companies/sculptors made miniatures for these units, and players bought them instead of GW miniatures because it was more convenient. Why do you think GW stopped making rules without having GW miniatures to play them ? That's why, and Mantic Games showed they have some concern as well with what happened with Vanguard.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/05 08:40:23


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 Sarouan wrote:
 DarkBlack wrote:

Having lists to accommodate miniatures from other gaming companies also has value because someone simply playing KoW is good for Mantic, even if they don't spend any money on Mantic products.
The popularity of a wargame makes it more successful, the more people play the more likely people are to start playing. Just having more people playing grows communities and those communities appreciate and support Mantic. Being able to start a community with existing armies helps KoW communities start.


It's more complicated than that, actually. First, I'm not that sure KoW is that popular worldwide.

Which is why Mantic needs to let people play with what they have. Once there is a community, then Mantic and members in the community can encourage and incentives using Mantic miniatures. Like is already happening. The game needs to grow. Even if a fraction of the commuity buys Mantic, the bigger the community the bigger the fraction of it. Plus the positive attitude toward Mantic that they have fostered with fans.

Cutting down on how many people can play and making it harder to get started cuts down the size of the global community. That community is most, if not all, of Mantic's potential and current customers.

As things stand, Mantic have many loyal and pro-Mantic fans (including myself). Trying to force people to play with Mantic miniatures (even if they had the range to allow that) would alienate those fans, exclude a large portion of their future customers. What you ae suggesting will IMO gut Mantic's customer base and destroy the goodwill they have by trying to milk the payerbase that is left.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/05 19:44:06



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 Sarouan wrote:

I'm not misjudging, I'm just saying people using their GW armies to play at KoW doesn't bring much money to Mantic Games. They don't need to buy miniatures on their web store, after all, they already have everything they need to play. Worse, if they want to add more units, they just buy more GW miniatures instead, since there are no Mantic Games miniatures available and it's more coherent for their armies.


Always so negative towards Mantic Sarouan.

I started in KoW with my GW armies like many. But, it will bring in money for Mantic. Most people move to second armies and may get some Mantic stuff - after all, GW have indoctrinated people into thinking you have to get the minis from the game maker.
People will get extra units for their armies from Mantic, even if their army has GW models in it. You are allowed to mix it up you know and GW didn't make all the units in KoW.
If you get other people playing KoW with you, some will spend more cash on Mantic armies.

Also, don't forget lots of the new GW stuff is made so it won't look like it will fit a more generic fantasy game. Less GW sales, more for Mantic.

GW do a great service in getting many people into the mini hobby, but they also indoctrinate them with so many false beliefs about the wider hobby.

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we may be getting off topic.
Speaking of topic, how do we get the title changed? Vanguard is not new news anymore.


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I definitely feel that Mantic need to push their more unique armys, such as the forces of the abyss, trident realms and hopefully the forth coming northern alliance. But will happily pay for a second book which contains the lists for my old Warhammer armies.

I'd also like to see them do a range of generic monsters. The giant that can be used by a bunch of armies is great, image if they also did hydra's, griffons, pegasus etc which half a dozen armies could all include.

If they are going to make any big changes to the rules, the one thing I'd like to change is characters. I hate it when a single guy holds up an entire regiment single handed. I would prefer it if they came in small units, as in the general with elite bodyguard. A troop size base with regiment + stats to portray that these guys are the best of the best. but then that would be a major change to how they game plays.

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 DarkBlack wrote:
we may be getting off topic.
Speaking of topic, how do we get the title changed? Vanguard is not new news anymore.


PM a Mod and ask for title change none of them really frequent this thread so your post may go unnoticed.

It might be worth retiring this thread with KoW3 coming and having someone that's willing to keep to the OP and title up to date start a new one as Cyporiean doesn't seem to be around here anymore.
   
 
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