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2017/11/09 06:25:31
Subject: [1500] - Imperial Guard - Mechanized Company
I've picked Astra Militarum up for 8th edition, having played Guard back in 3e and 4e. I'd always wanted to run an armor-heavy force, and from what I can gather here this is a good thing to run in 8e. I've made this up as a "Patrol", because it is the most like what I was familiar with back in 3/4e. From what I can gather, in an actual game I'd be better off running a "Spearhead", as I could keep the same stuff but actually get +1 Command Point.
Leman Russ Battle Tanks [30 PL, 519pts] . Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolters, Heavy Stubber, Stat Damage (Leman Russ)
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolters, Heavy Stubber, Stat Damage (Leman Russ)
. Leman Russ Exterminator: Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolters, Heavy Stubber, Stat Damage (Leman Russ), Turret-mounted Exterminator Autocannon
Chimera [6 PL, 101pts]: Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolter, 2x Lasgun Arrays, Stat Damage (Chimera), Track guards
Chimera [6 PL, 101pts]: Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolter, 2x Lasgun Arrays, Stat Damage (Chimera), Track guards
++ Total: [84 PL, 1490pts] ++
RATIONALE:
Spoiler:
General I shot for 1500 points because - if points are still relevant in this edition - it seems like it would make a good entry point for getting an army done relatively quickly and set the stage for scaling up to higher point values eventually. Currently not sure what to spend my last 10 points on.
"Armageddon" was selected because it seemed thematically appropriate, but looking back it would appear as if this isn't a great choice. These don't cost anything in points, but not picking one would be passing on a free bonus - which itself is a cost.
HQ I selected a Vanquisher for my Command Tank. This is to give my best BS unit the anti-tank-sniper role, for lack of a better name. This has been upgraded with an Augur array for extra hit probabilities on the eventual "crucial shot", and plasma sponsons for extra pain-bringing. The heavy stubber provides a little more anti-infantry defense, and the HK missile provides just one more AT option at the unit's best BS.
(Originally every vehicle in my original draft on Reddit mounted these to extend their Anti-Tank capability, but it appears much like in the past, the HK missile isn't really worth the points. So I'm told, anyways.)
Fast Attack My fast attack options were added in after I yanked Track Guards and HK missiles off of every other vehicle (except the HQ, which kept their HK for now). These are mobile autocannons focusing on MEQs and medium-toughness vehicles. Nothing special on these - I'd thought to give them HK to extend anti-tank opportunities, but they may not be worth it on such a vehicle. As is these don't have the ability to Deep Strike anymore, nor can they exploit flanking runs because vehicles don't really have flanks anymore.
I ran a bunch of these in my old army from 4e and thought the models were neat, but honestly at this stage I'd rather have taken Salamanders - except from what I can tell that's not something I can take and still get a "regiment" bonus due to Faction...or something like that. Rules I don't yet fully understand, I think. Of the lot, this is the part I'm least married to.
Troops Two squads, each with their own dedicated transport. Missile launcher to better deal with tough targets, and grenade launchers to better handle moderate foes in groups. Squad leader gets a chainsword because apparently you're forced to take one now, and a bolter because they're cooler than just the usual laspistol/sword combo - it costs all of 1 point (!) and extends the squad's firepower a little bit (even if evidently they're lackluster this edition). I'm not really married to even having special and/or heavy weapons, as they're not really fighters, but it felt weird to not have them.
Extra dakka is provided by the Chimeras, which are boltered up because it looks better than the mutli-laser and I'm not allowed auto-cannons because it would break the whole Regiment thing (it's a DKOK thing only, evidently). These keep their track guards because mobility probably does matter more to these IFVs. I originally had HK missiles (and augur arrays) to extend the squad's anti-tank capabilities a bit, but again with them not being worth taking.
Troops in this list are really just there to hold ground and support the tanks (and to fuel up the Chimeras).
Heavy Support Three Russes - two ordinary, one Exterminator. All have Heavy Bolters on the Hull and Sponson (and Stubbers) for moar dakka. Augurs and HK missiles were removed as it has been said they don't carry their points-weight.
I figure I can't really go wrong with two ordinary Lemon Rusts, and the Exterminator not only looks cool but also improves the unit's ability to counter tougher enemies that don't so much warrant a battle cannon to the face just yet. I had considered hull lascannons on the ordinary examples, but without a "weapon destroyed" type option this edition, I'm not sure it would really bring anything extra the cannon doesn't already do for "free".
Flyers I will admit the Thunderbolt is mostly a vanity buy. I've wanted one of these since I was aware ForgeWorld made them, but wasn't ever able to. Now I can, and you best believe I'd want to field it! (Urge to do air-mobile Guard RISING...)
It's mostly stock, except I elected for bombs because they're lower cost and evidently let me still shoot even after I've dropped them on a move - good weapon of opportunity, in that sense.
I kind of think this might break the whole <Regiment> thing, though
That's the long and short of it. I've considered taking a Basilisk instead of those Sentenels, in order to provide plunging fire on targets that think they can hide from the Emperor. I figure that fighter's going to die sometime...
Extending the list upwards to 2k, I suspect I'd take another tank and some more infantry/Chimeras. Most likely something that can assault and take a position, such as some Veterans; evidently Stormtroopers / Kasarkin are gone, replaced by these "Scion" things...which aren't <Regiment>... And, assuming I haven't already replaced the Sententials with a Basilisk, I'd probably take a Basilisk and/or additional tank if I could.
I'm also told that the Vanquisher and Exterminator are themselves somewhat suspect in value, given current options. That was just one forum post on here by one guy, however, so I can't vouch for that.
I originally thought to do these up with Steel Legion figs, though right now I've just got some plastic Cadian-types. Might do some FW customization with the breathing masks, but we shall see. Might be a project for a future time, since there's so few infantry in the army in the near term (or, really, longterm - gone are the days of a whole PLATOON per troop choice!)
Thank you for reading; I'm open to any feedback you've got. I have much to learn about this new edition, and I suspect the old 3e/4e ways of thinking probably cloud my judgment. Fire away!
M.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/09 06:26:28
Looks fun to play with and against.
Definitely at least take this as a spearhead for a free CP. If you could fit in 2 HQs and another infantry squad, you could take a battalion AND a spearhead for 3 more CP.
3 (Battleforged) + 1 (Spearhead) + 3 Battalion = 7 CP
Scout Sentinels' free pregame move makes them great against deep strike armies. However, I cannot comment on the armored ones being any good. My gut says take the scout sentinels or don't take them at all. It seems like a lot of points lost effectiveness. But that's my gut, you may need to play them out and see how you like them.
You might want to consider a Tallarn or Catachan spearhead for the tanks and sentinels. Tallarns wont lose BS for moving, Catachans reroll all D6 and D3 weapons. That's what I have found to be best for tanks. The cadian tanks staying static all game really weakens them overall.
Depending on what you are against, Battle Cannons and Punisher Cannons seem like the best value overall for Leman Russes. I've tried Exterminators, and I too think that they leave a lot to be desired. If you don't have the model, you can probably pickup the top gun for less than $10 on eBay.
Definitely at least take this as a spearhead for a free CP.
I suspect I would, as I already plan to tick all the boxes for one. Though, what isn't clear to me is exactly when one picks what they're taking. I opted for that "Patrol" mostly since it seemed most generic and familiar.
If you could fit in 2 HQs and another infantry squad, you could take a battalion AND a spearhead for 3 more CP.
3 (Battleforged) + 1 (Spearhead) + 3 Battalion = 7 CP
For 1500 points, I'm not sure I could - though scaling it up to 2k I probably would be able to.
That said, is it normal (and legal?) for someone to take what sounds like two complete armies like that? Wouldn't that lead to everyone always just taking the dead minimum across multiple Detachment types just to milk the CP bonuses?
Scout Sentinels' free pregame move makes them great against deep strike armies. However, I cannot comment on the armored ones being any good. My gut says take the scout sentinels or don't take them at all. It seems like a lot of points lost effectiveness. But that's my gut, you may need to play them out and see how you like them.
You might be right on Scout vs Armored. I hadn't thought about the pre-move as a counter to deep strike - I suppose as a way to get them closer to an unoccupied quarter?
You might want to consider a Tallarn or Catachan spearhead for the tanks and sentinels. Tallarns wont lose BS for moving, Catachans reroll all D6 and D3 weapons. That's what I have found to be best for tanks. The cadian tanks staying static all game really weakens them overall.
You're not the first person to suggest that (and it looks like I deleted the paragraph in my list that mentions it). I originally chose Armageddon because the improved armor ability sounded much more useful than it really did. Also I was thinking about boosting my supporting infantry a little, which in retrospect makes little sense because they're not really expected to do much in the way of fighting at short range. The whole Regiment thing seemed a little lackluster to me in general, really, but you can't not have one.
Depending on what you are against, Battle Cannons and Punisher Cannons seem like the best value overall for Leman Russes. I've tried Exterminators, and I too think that they leave a lot to be desired. If you don't have the model, you can probably pickup the top gun for less than $10 on eBay.
Where do you notice that the Exterminator falls short? I have seen at least one person say they're not worth the take, but as yet no reason why.
That said, is it normal (and legal?) for someone to take what sounds like two complete armies like that? Wouldn't that lead to everyone always just taking the dead minimum across multiple Detachment types just to milk the CP bonuses?
Typically most competitive formats limit how many detachments you can take. RTT-ITC is 2 detachments for 1000pt games, and 3 for 2000pt games. This balances out the cheese.
You might be right on Scout vs Armored. I hadn't thought about the pre-move as a counter to deep strike - I suppose as a way to get them closer to an unoccupied quarter?
Deepstrike has to be more than 9" away (in MOST cases) from the closest enemy unit. You can effectively make your enemy deepstrike 18" from your juicy units. That's why it's good. And you don't need turn 1, because it happens before the battle round begins.
You're not the first person to suggest that (and it looks like I deleted the paragraph in my list that mentions it). I originally chose Armageddon because the improved armor ability sounded much more useful than it really did. Also I was thinking about boosting my supporting infantry a little, which in retrospect makes little sense because they're not really expected to do much in the way of fighting at short range. The whole Regiment thing seemed a little lackluster to me in general, really, but you can't not have one.
Try out Catachan and tallarn. They seem to be my go-to for russes.
Where do you notice that the Exterminator falls short? I have seen at least one person say they're not worth the take, but as yet no reason why.
They're slightly "better" than a battle cannon in one way, minus one more AP. However, you have to overcharge them to make them as good as a battle cannon (S8 and D2). Now you are needlessly taking mortal wounds when you don't need too, in addition to trading a 72" range from a battle cannon for 36" from the plasma.
It's kind of like cutting off your right arm because you grew a smaller one out of your belly button. Just because you have it available doesn't make it better than something that's tried and true.
I've tried all of the guns and sponson combos, and this is what I found. Your mileage may vary:
1) Battle Cannons and Punisher Cannons are your only reliable main guns.
2) Demolisher is pretty (randomly) good, but very expensive.
3) Heavy bolters on vanilla tanks. Nothing more, nothing less.
4) Tank Commanders and Pask can take Las or Multimeltas, but have a plan to screen them to make them useful (Same for the demolisher).
That said, is it normal (and legal?) for someone to take what sounds like two complete armies like that? Wouldn't that lead to everyone always just taking the dead minimum across multiple Detachment types just to milk the CP bonuses?
Typically most competitive formats limit how many detachments you can take. RTT-ITC is 2 detachments for 1000pt games, and 3 for 2000pt games. This balances out the cheese.
Ah, understood.
So I could take, say, a 1k "Catchan Spearhead", a .5k "Tallarn Outrider" and a .5k "Mordian Vanguard" in a single 2k point "Battle Forged" army?
Deepstrike has to be more than 9" away (in MOST cases) from the closest enemy unit. You can effectively make your enemy deepstrike 18" from your juicy units. That's why it's good. And you don't need turn 1, because it happens before the battle round begins.
Ah, so I deploy them somewhat near my forces, then walk 9" away to extend the "buffer" for early DS units.
Where do you notice that the Exterminator falls short? I have seen at least one person say they're not worth the take, but as yet no reason why.
They're slightly "better" than a battle cannon in one way, minus one more AP. However, you have to overcharge them to make them as good as a battle cannon (S8 and D2). Now you are needlessly taking mortal wounds when you don't need too, in addition to trading a 72" range from a battle cannon for 36" from the plasma.
It's kind of like cutting off your right arm because you grew a smaller one out of your belly button. Just because you have it available doesn't make it better than something that's tried and true.
The Exterminator is the Autocannon variant, not the plasma one - you're thinking of the Executioner.
I've tried all of the guns and sponson combos, and this is what I found. Your mileage may vary:
1) Battle Cannons and Punisher Cannons are your only reliable main guns.
2) Demolisher is pretty (randomly) good, but very expensive.
3) Heavy bolters on vanilla tanks. Nothing more, nothing less.
4) Tank Commanders and Pask can take Las or Multimeltas, but have a plan to screen them to make them useful (Same for the demolisher).
What makes the other guns unreliable?
You know, I had wondered why nobody questioned the heavy bolters - what is wrong with the rest of the options? I'd intended to take HBs just to increase dakka, but going forward it would be good to know. Also, by "Vanilla" do you mean just regular Lemon Rusts, or any of the regular ones in the Codex (inc. say Punishers).
Issue with tanking commanders is then I'm tied to that faction! Would have been nice to have a "Generic Tank Master" kind of hero.
So apparently Salamanders ARE <Regiment> and I should be able to take them without any issue. So are a lot of IA units - not sure where I got that idea. I'd rather take those over Sentenals, honestly.
What about the Hellhound, though? One would just about bring me to 1500, and replace most of those Sentenals.
16,000 
