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If you built an army entirely out of grots and grot units, (excluding HQ as there is no grot HQ), could you make it a competitive army? You would have to make use of FW models because of the lack of grot units. So you would have these units to choose from: gretchin, killa kans, mek guns, big guns, grot tanks, grot mega tanks.
These units aren't great, so I doubt that a grot army could be very competitive without any non-grot units.

The KMK just received an unexpected points reduction to 42 points. So you should bring at least 18 of those. Unfortunately they are not as inexpensive in real life. You will probably need to sell a kidney.

I think it is very definitely possible. But you will need ork HQ (mainly Big Meks) and Runtherdz. The Runtherd is in fact a fairly decent character on his own.

If I remember correctly you need Big Meks to bring grot tanks.

An army of grots eh? Well. The traditional role of grot units is to take an ork unit''s place when it comes to the important part of battle called; dying. Now if you made up an army of fodder without any orks then I'd say they are guaranteed to succeed at their role.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
An army of grots eh? Well. The traditional role of grot units is to take an ork unit''s place when it comes to the important part of battle called; dying. Now if you made up an army of fodder without any orks then I'd say they are guaranteed to succeed at their role.

Fodder with better ballistic skill

Yes, you do need big mek/s to use grot tanks. I just checked the index and it doesn't seem to require you to use runtherds with grots.

Grot Tanks come to mind, I would look into those if I was you. I think its possible with a patrol detachment. but you will run out of interesting things to field quickly. You'll have to bend here and there on some things I'm sure it will end up being like 80% Grot 20% ork maybe. I would shoot for 500. 750 if your lucky and 350 at worse. Goodluck with the idea sounds pretty fun.

Edit: 2 minutes 2 Late...

 Vallhund wrote:
Yes, you do need big mek/s to use grot tanks. I just checked the index and it doesn't seem to require you to use runtherds with grots.

Gretchin alone is a totally useless unit. With a runtherd or two it is an almost useless unit.

How about including BS4+ vehicles or vehicles that either don't make shooting attacks and modeling them as grot vehicles? There's the Meka-Dread and Kill Tank at BS 4+, but the Meka-Dread might break the illusion since it's good with it's Klaw.

Skorcha? Supa-Skorcha Big Trakk? Battle Wagon with Deff Rolla? Dakkajet firing all its guns at the same target?

What about Squiggoth without guns? Gargantuan Squiggoth has to take guns, so maybe that would ruin the illusion.

A lot of these units aren't that good, and it's probably cheating anyway.

I love the idea of a grot-themed army, and I was planning to model things like buggies with grot drivers rather than orc drivers, and put grots in as many support roles as possible (including the grot battle-wagon! woot!). I haven't actually played anything except the First Strike scenarios though so I can't speak to the viability, but I'll cheerlead! Lets hear it for the Grotz! I was trying to figure out how to put the grot gun-crew guy with the big binoculars with some kommandos...

Out of curiosity, what would you expect the reception to be of things like grot kommandos that are very clearly proxies for ork kommandos?

I run an all-grot army myself, with the exception of a few units:

-Runtherds, I use the frequent "Grot standing on another grot's shoulders" model for these. You need at least a couple hounds and whips to make the base infantry unit do any kind of anything.

-Nob with Waaagh Banner (I use Mabari from RT, the OG ork banna wava) - need it to improve WS most critically of Killa Kanz, your main murderin' unit.

-Warboss and Big Mek (both kustom builds, one a mega armored model with a grot head, the other two grots with wrenches near a shield generator)

Then, my list is 4x grot tanks, grot mega tank, 12x killa kanz with the warboss and waagh banner, 60x foot grots with squig hound and whip guy, several KMKs and lobbas.

the_scotsman wrote:
I run an all-grot army myself, with the exception of a few units:

-Runtherds, I use the frequent "Grot standing on another grot's shoulders" model for these. You need at least a couple hounds and whips to make the base infantry unit do any kind of anything.

-Nob with Waaagh Banner (I use Mabari from RT, the OG ork banna wava) - need it to improve WS most critically of Killa Kanz, your main murderin' unit.

-Warboss and Big Mek (both kustom builds, one a mega armored model with a grot head, the other two grots with wrenches near a shield generator)

Then, my list is 4x grot tanks, grot mega tank, 12x killa kanz with the warboss and waagh banner, 60x foot grots with squig hound and whip guy, several KMKs and lobbas.

Do your lobbas do anything worthwhile? I mean, now that KMKs are 42 points and lobbas 30, wouldn't it be stronger to just take KMK's?

pismakron wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I run an all-grot army myself, with the exception of a few units:

-Runtherds, I use the frequent "Grot standing on another grot's shoulders" model for these. You need at least a couple hounds and whips to make the base infantry unit do any kind of anything.

-Nob with Waaagh Banner (I use Mabari from RT, the OG ork banna wava) - need it to improve WS most critically of Killa Kanz, your main murderin' unit.

-Warboss and Big Mek (both kustom builds, one a mega armored model with a grot head, the other two grots with wrenches near a shield generator)

Then, my list is 4x grot tanks, grot mega tank, 12x killa kanz with the warboss and waagh banner, 60x foot grots with squig hound and whip guy, several KMKs and lobbas.

Do your lobbas do anything worthwhile? I mean, now that KMKs are 42 points and lobbas 30, wouldn't it be stronger to just take KMK's?

I haven't played it in the couple days since the leaks, so yeah, most likely. Historically they've done ok. I run rokkits on practically everything, it tends to be hordes I struggle against, and so I used the lobbas to try and grind through them.

One thing that works decently against hordes is in fact the runtherdz themselves. They are kinda like a 4-wound Nob with a 1-Damage big-choppa. Regards

Probably but it would probably not be all that much fun to play, and might revolve around spamming some HQs(big meks, weirdboyz), and ork elites (runt herds, pain boyz). In objective matches having 300 5++, 6+++ save bodies would do ok. But you likely would not kill much

Breng77 wrote:
Probably but it would probably not be all that much fun to play, and might revolve around spamming some HQs(big meks, weirdboyz), and ork elites (runt herds, pain boyz). In objective matches having 300 5++, 6+++ save bodies would do ok. But you likely would not kill much

In practice an all-grot list is vehicle centric (because it's mostly mek gunz, killa kanz, and maybe grot tanks, at least points-wise) but you get the added comedy factor of however many grot bodies you own flooding the board and dying in droves.

the_scotsman wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Probably but it would probably not be all that much fun to play, and might revolve around spamming some HQs(big meks, weirdboyz), and ork elites (runt herds, pain boyz). In objective matches having 300 5++, 6+++ save bodies would do ok. But you likely would not kill much

In practice an all-grot list is vehicle centric (because it's mostly mek gunz, killa kanz, and maybe grot tanks, at least points-wise) but you get the added comedy factor of however many grot bodies you own flooding the board and dying in droves.

Sadly I actually don't think that would be the most competitive all-grot list. Other than Mek Gunz/Big guns, taking things like Kanz and grot tanks actually make your list worse, than it would be spending those points on more grot bodies. I think if you wanted to go the vehicle route you would take minimum to 0 actual grots, and run a kan wall style list, but right now I think those just die too quickly.

Breng77 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Probably but it would probably not be all that much fun to play, and might revolve around spamming some HQs(big meks, weirdboyz), and ork elites (runt herds, pain boyz). In objective matches having 300 5++, 6+++ save bodies would do ok. But you likely would not kill much

In practice an all-grot list is vehicle centric (because it's mostly mek gunz, killa kanz, and maybe grot tanks, at least points-wise) but you get the added comedy factor of however many grot bodies you own flooding the board and dying in droves.

Sadly I actually don't think that would be the most competitive all-grot list. Other than Mek Gunz/Big guns, taking things like Kanz and grot tanks actually make your list worse, than it would be spending those points on more grot bodies. I think if you wanted to go the vehicle route you would take minimum to 0 actual grots, and run a kan wall style list, but right now I think those just die too quickly.

You're making a grot list, you're not trying to be competitive. Also, in my experience the survivability of a killa kan is pretty good in 8th. T5 is just as good as the normal T7 when it comes to high strength dedicated anti armor weaponry, which tends to be S8-9, and if they shoot anti light armor weaponry at them like autocannons they generally get a pretty good save.

Kans are a decent unit in 8th. Better than Deff Dreads, worse than boyz or nobz, but a LOT better than Gretchin infantry. Grots are one of the worst units in 8th edition.

Pure grots? Absolutely not.

You would need either warbossi or, better yet, runtherds to keep your grot screen intact.

Kans are pretty decent.

Grot tanks are........risky. They're ok, but they have grot LD, so they start running quickly, and it's not hard to remove them.

KMKs are good, but you need to screen them like crazy.

Long story short, it could theoretically be done if you had hundreds of grots and dozens of artillery, and plenty of runtherds, but it would probably be more effective to build a grot army that counts as IG.

Which would quickly get you yelled at me for starting dat 'revoulshion' nonsense.

RAW, you also have to be careful to keep your grot tanks away from Squig Hound runtherds, because if they fail a morale test the hound scarfs down D3 tanks.

Forgeworld: Wut R Keyword system?

the_scotsman wrote:
RAW, you also have to be careful to keep your grot tanks away from Squig Hound runtherds, because if they fail a morale test the hound scarfs down D3 tanks.

Forgeworld: Wut R Keyword system?

I pray that this is intentional because the imagery is hilarious.

the_scotsman wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Probably but it would probably not be all that much fun to play, and might revolve around spamming some HQs(big meks, weirdboyz), and ork elites (runt herds, pain boyz). In objective matches having 300 5++, 6+++ save bodies would do ok. But you likely would not kill much

In practice an all-grot list is vehicle centric (because it's mostly mek gunz, killa kanz, and maybe grot tanks, at least points-wise) but you get the added comedy factor of however many grot bodies you own flooding the board and dying in droves.

Sadly I actually don't think that would be the most competitive all-grot list. Other than Mek Gunz/Big guns, taking things like Kanz and grot tanks actually make your list worse, than it would be spending those points on more grot bodies. I think if you wanted to go the vehicle route you would take minimum to 0 actual grots, and run a kan wall style list, but right now I think those just die too quickly.

You're making a grot list, you're not trying to be competitive. Also, in my experience the survivability of a killa kan is pretty good in 8th. T5 is just as good as the normal T7 when it comes to high strength dedicated anti armor weaponry, which tends to be S8-9, and if they shoot anti light armor weaponry at them like autocannons they generally get a pretty good save.

Then what does successful refer to? Can you make an army consisting of primarily grot units, sure. Will it be good? IMO not unless you spam out grots, kan wall can be ok, but they go down quick to dedicated anti-tank fire, and are still subject to some anti-infantry weapons for damage. Especially in close combat where they are poor unless you bring supporting units that get them to being decent. But then you are not playing "all grots"

Maybe he's shooting for something that won't get tabled every game in casual games? For a fun themed army I can see that as a type of success, even though it isn't winning tournaments.

It's not only possible. It is in fact the best way to play orks IMO.

It's obviously better if you throw a few big units of boys in with it but I think you could just remove them for more killia kans or grot tanks or something.

Spend something like 50% of your points on KMK big meck guns. The rest go into kans, grot tanks, gretchen units. Whatever HQ your chose should do fine. Use the grot vehicals to screen your guns.

Breng77 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Probably but it would probably not be all that much fun to play, and might revolve around spamming some HQs(big meks, weirdboyz), and ork elites (runt herds, pain boyz). In objective matches having 300 5++, 6+++ save bodies would do ok. But you likely would not kill much

In practice an all-grot list is vehicle centric (because it's mostly mek gunz, killa kanz, and maybe grot tanks, at least points-wise) but you get the added comedy factor of however many grot bodies you own flooding the board and dying in droves.

Sadly I actually don't think that would be the most competitive all-grot list. Other than Mek Gunz/Big guns, taking things like Kanz and grot tanks actually make your list worse, than it would be spending those points on more grot bodies. I think if you wanted to go the vehicle route you would take minimum to 0 actual grots, and run a kan wall style list, but right now I think those just die too quickly.

You're making a grot list, you're not trying to be competitive. Also, in my experience the survivability of a killa kan is pretty good in 8th. T5 is just as good as the normal T7 when it comes to high strength dedicated anti armor weaponry, which tends to be S8-9, and if they shoot anti light armor weaponry at them like autocannons they generally get a pretty good save.

Then what does successful refer to? Can you make an army consisting of primarily grot units, sure. Will it be good? IMO not unless you spam out grots, kan wall can be ok, but they go down quick to dedicated anti-tank fire, and are still subject to some anti-infantry weapons for damage. Especially in close combat where they are poor unless you bring supporting units that get them to being decent. But then you are not playing "all grots"

its true, I do stretch the definition of "All grots" by an extra 3 models beyond my compulsory HQs.

However, I don't think it's completely fair to say that you HAVE to run all grots when you legally can't, and if you're already converting a couple hqs, throwing in a couple extra characters as fun proxies just makes sense.Nobody has yet complained about my Mabari waaagh banner...because he's Mabari. He's the ORIGINAL waaagh banner. Why does he hit like a nob in combat? Because he's mabari and he's amazing, get dunked on son.

Plus, I think people are underestimating just how godawfully terrible grots are. A list that actually tries to lean heavily on grots is going to fall flat on its face every time. Take 60-90 and you'll quite comfortably fill the table with a sea of bodies, but you'll still only be throwing 180 points out the window on terrible terrible grots.

I think it's the one time flashlights get a to wound roll of 3+
Throw in their low leadership with that low toughness and the opponent only needs to shoot half a full mob, switch targets, and at the end of turn let morale sort out the rest.

I will say, if I fought someone using a Grothorde, I would commend them and likely buy them lunch for playing something so distinctive.

M.

I really like Grots, and I've been using them as a screen for my Big Gunz in the games I've been playing just because I think they're cool. It's too bad that 30 Grots are worse than 15 Boyz at just about everything.

Dropping them to 2 points per model would certainly help, but I'm also hoping we see a bunch of Stratagems where we can hilariously sacrifice the poor grots for benefits.

If Grots are within 1" of an enemy unit other Ork units should be able to shoot at the enemy unit, but on hit rolls of 1 a grot is slain. This would be a good stratagem, but I think it should actually just be an ability on the Gretchin data sheet.

If a Big Mek with SAG is within 3" of a unit of grots there should be a stratagem to sacrifice 1d3 grots and do the same amount of mortal wounds to the target. Or maybe the SAG gets to make 2d6 attacks but doubles cause a roll on a 1d3 chart of weird malfunctions.

A good stratagem might be to use Grots as shields for Infantry or Artillery and reassign wounds taken by them to a nearby unit of Grots on successful rolls.

Another one I'd like would be to pick a Runtherd, and for every Big Gun or Mek Gun within 6" roll a d6. On a 4+ the gun gets to shoot twice, but on a 1 a grot gunner is slain. Mek Guns subtract 1 from this roll (shooting twice is a bigger deal for them and they have more gunners to spare). This wouldn't directly help Grots, but since it makes Runtherds better it indirectly helps them.

I was thinking about this recently.



I feel like Grots have some strengths, and the Rebel grot concept has always been kind of cool - for me; it's always snuck its way into my conversions, and into my army in small ways reflecting a kind of subversive element amongst all grots, and a kind of community between them. Grots are found in dark corners broadcasting on Grot Free Radio, and planting subversive messages on the backs of tanks. My tanks aren't so much vehicles as hives of scrap infested with grots, a rolling Bazaar of bizarre death machines - and that's the way I like it!

There are also a lot of old mini's for Rebel Grots, which are quite cool. Painting, and gaming with metal models can be a pain and several of my metal grots lost limbs, alas. Sometimes you can get some of these vintage models on the cheap, but as time goes on the only supply will become "sealed vintage!" being auctioned off at 20x the original price. So recycle your minis! because opening new boxes is more expensive than you think.

Some might say that 7th ork codex was Codex Lucky Stikk - and a small group amongst those people might even say that makes it a Grot Codex by default....

I remember, way back when I started orks: winning a games workshop store raffle for a free 500pt army, and I basically grabbed up as many metal grots as I could, and the new plastic models are a boon but still basically just built around the same old grot designs from forever. So fielding an army of the little blighters would never be a particularly thrilling prospect to paint and model - even heavy conversion in the core troops choice would leave them looking pretty repetitive, and the scale and structure of goblin mini's or the cost of alternative resin mini's makes it hard to get around this basic problem: it'll only look cool, with a TON of work.

Guns, and Kanz are great, but the army needs characters and it needs a characterful theme. A serious grot character conversion would have to go down: a big mek KFF grot, a Paingrot, potentially on warbikes, and maybe a weirdgrot, and Grotnob with Banna - assuming all these character abilities do indeed apply to grots.
Grots in mega armour would also be cool and characterful.
and if you can make that leap why not replace Ghazghkull with a home grown Grot Revolutionary Leader in a suit of powered, looted Mega Armour.
And if you're creative enough for that you can convert way, way outside the boundaries of the board game itself, or agree upon rules with your opponent to field old models like Rebel Grot Cutters.

The cool thing about this edition is packing units together and getting buffs across many models, and big model swarms can't just get template spammed off the board.
That is a stark contrast to all previous editions where all big hordes deployed as far apart as possible.

Da Grot Rebellion would need some serious firepower to succeed, but it would also need swarms and swarms. 150 grots is only 450 pts, but there is a point of diminishing returns where more troops do not equal victory, because if you don't have heavy infantry to break through heavily fortified positions your waves of garbage infantry will just get hosed faster than they can advance!! a true Grot Army would need another 2 units for troops choices, because that is the way the game works.

This is a problem orks are familiar with, from previous editions, and it feels like we've escaped it for the time being, but try playing a Grot army and you'll feel the pain all over again!

For a casual, cool, converted and characterful army I'm thinking the ability to Da Jump in a big 10 Manz grot revolutionary guard. Followed up by 150 or so grots all milking off 1 paingrot and kff grot, plus some Kanz and Gunz and grot Driven forgeworld options would probably put a lot of players off balance, and one thing 30 grots can do better than 15 boys is fan out - a couple of rear units of grots could basically spread to encompass most of the backfield preventing the opponent from getting in there.

But grots are just such an inflexible unit: no special weapons, limited capabilities, serious weaknesses - that it makes it an uphill battle to want to use them as anything except a screen for arty. Do the math: the best thing about them, their shooting attack is pretty much mediocre at best, and "just pissing them off" at worst.

Maybe 18 KMK's would be amazing, but if you're really *that* competitive about 40k, you've probably taken at least 1 trip to china with an empty suitcase for cheap recasts, or you've taken the route of scratch building but either way you've invested a lot in just one thing that more often than not looks on this side of terrible - and while grots can't be considered good soldiers they aren't terrible and *have* been done in (small) armies so so well!

------------------------ So don't overlook the humble grot, and don't try to jump into something near and dear to the hearts of ork players everywhere if you're not prepared to do it justice ------------------------

The idea of stratagems is a good one. Grots used to be able to run into minefields to clear them - that's saved my bacon big time on more than one occasion. I'm talking about those minefields that kept wounding troops and vehicles and couldn't be cleared by anything else in the game except grots.

But we can't play the game with what we want the rules to be, only what they are - and you've got to decide what you really want to do, how you want to balance the fluff and possibility for conversion with how the models play in the game. If you want to buy 10 boxes of grots from GW, glue them on bases, spray them green and play with them - by all means; hard to say how many games it'll lose but hordes are good this edition so give it a go, but I think that misses the point. Competitive play is just not kind when you're core infantry is made up the-sh!tiest warriors in the galaxy!
I think that makes any victory pretty sweet.

If you want to convert, and apply the stat lines to the models you create: that's cool too, but at a certain point you've got to wonder, what can't you make a grot version of? You could make grot versions of anything you want, and really all you're effectively saying is: "Ork Army: No Boyz", as if making a promise to tie a hand behind your back will be honourable and win you battles. You could make grots riding all boys, and make the boys look sort of lobotomized, and use those models as the Boyz of the army... although that seems a bit despotic and dark for freed grots to enslave and experiment on the orks that ruled them.

Other players won't pull their punches, in competitive play, they will bring their best stuff. Why should orks ignore their greatest strength this edition: Hordes of Boyz are amazing again. Huzzah!
We're living in an era not seen since the release of third. GW wants to sell those kits that always contain boys, and they want to sell kits of boys, and yeah they want to sell kits of grots, but the grot kit has so many limitations and goblin kits don't scale or mesh particularly well...

Warhammer is not a complicated game: it's strategy has always favoured the player with the greatest selection of models. Theoretically if you have 10 of every model/unit type you can bring an army to challenge any opponent and play in any environment. If you know what your opponent has, you've got it, and if you don't you will still just spam best possible unit configurations of 2-3 units, taking advantage of the best rules of the hour.

Because with each rule revision or rule release the meta favours one outcome..... As sure as the sun rises. In the next edition Lootas will be cheaper, and stormboyz will suck. You might not believe me, since stormboyz have been great for a while, but there was a time in 4th or maybe 5th when they sucked. And as for Lootas, well let me tell you gits: I still have orks with sniper rifles on my shelves. So if you're going to have any kind of "Grot Revolution" You better be prepared to bring back the looted tank, and bring it back HARD.
GW forces players to shelve some units and favour others, but then they switch it up on us, and ultimately it's just a sales scheme. Their models have gotten a lot better over the years so give them credit, and the game stays consistently similar in its attempts to address the core problems of "rules" that must also be flexible to change - release new armies and new mini's to excite existing gamers into making more purchases, and expand the game world in general so it has more depth.

If you want to be competitive buy every model you can, have every option you can, magnetize everything you can, and don't limit yourself to fluff in any way shape or form. Opening a hobby store or a franchise location probably the fastest route.

In my experience GW heavily punishes the player that invests heavily in just one unit. The person that buys 18 KMKs this edition, glues them all together and says "aha, I've got the best army forever!", will find out that they absolutely suck in 9th. Many, MANY units have had their spot in the sun, and have also had a time to suck.
From an investment/model perspective players that buy a diverse range of kits are least impacted by the change in edition, at least in terms of how their army operates and how "good" it is.

Invest highly in the models themselves, convert them, paint them, and enjoy them, and they retain value well and stay playable a long time.
If you've got 3-4 armies already, if you don't blink at the thought of spending several hundred dollars all in one go and then months of time developing one clear idea, or if you can make us all proud with your custom resin moulds and or wire and putty modelling skills, then yeah a grot army can be cool and could turn a lot of heads. But if its your first or second army and you don't have the patience or technique to paint 500+ models with a high density converting: you're going to get bogged down real quick and end up with a half finished set of models, collecting dust on the shelf.

But there is a legend... of a Great Grot Head Honcho who would emerge in a time of great peril to lead Da Grot Revolution to freedom!
Maybe 8th edition will be the time of his coming?