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Everyone knows the Tau meta - Commander spam

Guess what got buffed, to a whole new level with chapter approved?

Characters did, the new requirement to target a character is much stricter, meaning a single hidden out of los model, will prevent the enemy from targeting characters


That results in commanders spamming rockets at range, while you HAVE to play hide and seek with the drones he has all over the place

Click-bait much? "Insane buff" is a slight buff. For a very specific build which will most probably be changed with the release of the codex in a few short months. So. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

 Hollow wrote:
Click-bait much? "Insane buff" is a slight buff. For a very specific build which will most probably be changed with the release of the codex in a few short months. So. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Well, vs most meta armies, like IG, it is trully insane, since they have few deep strike options and if you're playing a map with quite a lot of terrain, this is huge vs any army

Basically you will have to pick out every single drone before you can target the characters, good luck oing that in cityscape or any other more cluttered terrain


Sure if you play on a plain map, this doesn't change much, but if you have a terrain rich, realistic landscape, this is insane

Ahhhh ... poor Imperial Guard!!! What are THEY going to do.

Besides the fact that few armies have as much powerful and cheap no-need-for-LoS firepower as Imperial Guard anyhow.


Either way, Rhino (or Leman Russ/Chimera)-scoping to circumvent character protection was a far bigger problem than Tau Commanders, so swings and round-abouts. Tau Commanders are something that can easily be fixed specifically in the Tau book. LoS scoping shenanigans affect the game no matter the armies on the table - especially on tables with lots of terrain - and is something well worth addressing in a book like Chapter Approved.

If only, if only IG had access to a pretty good tank that didn't need LoS to shoot.

If, only....

 Dovis wrote:
this is insane

I think you need to look up the meaning of the word 'insane'

 AaronWilson wrote:
If only, if only IG had access to a pretty good tank that didn't need LoS to shoot.

If, only....

So a 133 unit to kill 32 point unit in 2-3 turns, you're great at math bro, that is totally a bargain deal

I thought that all they did was clarify it so you couldn't do nonsense like park a transport in front of your own guys and then claim you can shoot the character because you no longer have LOS to the unit that you would normally have to fire against, which was a blatant abuse of the intent of the rule.

Did someone seriously just imply that the Imperial Guard have No Good Deepstrike Options


What. Are. You. On?

Wayniac wrote:
I thought that all they did was clarify it so you couldn't do nonsense like park a transport in front of your own guys and then claim you can shoot the character because you no longer have LOS to the unit that you would normally have to fire against, which was a blatant abuse of the intent of the rule.

How to prevent that AND make it so that enemy can't hide unit out of LOS and still have character untargeatable?

Either way you have rhino's used to snipe characters or allows enemy to hide characters AND not have to expose hiding unit to enemy shooting. It's just question which is less of two evils.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Did someone seriously just imply that the Imperial Guard have No Good Deepstrike Options


What. Are. You. On?

Few =/= No

For a native speaker you have terrible reading comprehension


Plasma Scions while great, are very fragile and thus not perfect for the task, since they cost more than double what the drones do and would take 2 turns or more (since you land under 2 wounds on average to them) to take out all 4

One more reason to rock a few (dozen) mortar HWTs I guess.

 Dovis wrote:

Few =/= No

For a native speaker you have terrible reading comprehension


Plasma Scions while great, are very fragile and thus not perfect for the task, since they cost more than double what the drones do and would take 2 turns or more (since you land under 2 wounds on average to them) to take out all 4

And so it should be. 2-3 turns to make back a units cost in points sounds about right. A deepstriking unit that can make back its own points in the turn it comes in without a turn or two for the opponent to counter it would be far more obnoxiously broken than the minor, circumstantial Tau advantage you fixate on.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Dovis wrote:

Few =/= No

For a native speaker you have terrible reading comprehension


Plasma Scions while great, are very fragile and thus not perfect for the task, since they cost more than double what the drones do and would take 2 turns or more (since you land under 2 wounds on average to them) to take out all 4

And so it should be. 2-3 turns to make back a units cost in points sounds about right. A deepstriking unit that can make back its own points in the turn it comes in without a turn or two for the opponent to counter it would be far more obnoxiously broken than the minor, circumstantial Tau advantage you fixate on.

Except they would be dead on arrival since you'd overwatch them at full ballistic skill

Also the same Scions can make up for their point cost on turn 1 vs other armies, some times even twice their point cost on turn one

That's why this is neither minor nor circumstantial advantage, it's abusable af

 Dovis wrote:

 AaronWilson wrote:
If only, if only IG had access to a pretty good tank that didn't need LoS to shoot.

If, only....

So a 133 unit to kill 32 point unit in 2-3 turns, you're great at math bro, that is totally a bargain deal

Hahahaha at least you gave me a giggle good sir. The over defensive response isn't needed her, it's only toy soldiers.

 AaronWilson wrote:

 Dovis wrote:

 AaronWilson wrote:
If only, if only IG had access to a pretty good tank that didn't need LoS to shoot.

If, only....

So a 133 unit to kill 32 point unit in 2-3 turns, you're great at math bro, that is totally a bargain deal

Hahahaha at least you gave me a giggle good sir. The over defensive response isn't needed her, it's only toy soldiers.

True that, but since you were sarcastic, I had to be a bit harsher as well


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess the thread is pointless from here on, there is little on topic to discuss

I mean, strictly it's a net-buff for a Tau Commander spam list. I think Insane might be a bit strong, but it's not bad for the list

I presume, then, that out-of-LOS individuals in a unit can still be taken as casualties to direct fire?

M.

So the rules can allow one of two beardy tactics that hurt the game:
-Rhino Sniping (was a thing in 6th, too)
-Hiding meatshields

I think the game suffers less from allowing hidden meatshields, but they both suck.

Look OUt Sir rolls were kinda janky in 6th and 7th. Not an easy thing to solve for.

You could make more complicated rules like "If all closer units are not in LOS, owning player may volenteer one for being considered in LOS", but is there really a clear, concise rule that would prevent both of the above, while not making things more complilcated.

Eeeer, how is this tau spesific?

Tau spam HQs because mostly everything else sucks.

And they are point-blank. 18" at most. (technically can pack longer range, but overpriced and ineffective)

So, if the enemy manages to have a unit closer than the 18" commander who is also hidden from LoS in a constant matter, perhaps the problem lies in you.

Bharring wrote:
So the rules can allow one of two beardy tactics that hurt the game:
-Rhino Sniping (was a thing in 6th, too)
-Hiding meatshields

I think the game suffers less from allowing hidden meatshields, but they both suck.

Look OUt Sir rolls were kinda janky in 6th and 7th. Not an easy thing to solve for.

You could make more complicated rules like "If all closer units are not in LOS, owning player may volenteer one for being considered in LOS", but is there really a clear, concise rule that would prevent both of the above, while not making things more complilcated.

I would say the opposite, I think hidden meat shields are worse than "Rhino sniping" , if all character/character heavy armies were not a thing I might agree, but given that they are I think the ability to hide a single cheap character closer to the opponent and render your other characters invincible other than snipers is worse than, someone using a vehicle to block LOS to a unit to be able to shoot a character. The later tends to force people to keep meat shields closer to characters, as then they are harder to block.

Bharring wrote:

You could make more complicated rules like "If all closer units are not in LOS, owning player may volenteer one for being considered in LOS", but is there really a clear, concise rule that would prevent both of the above, while not making things more complilcated.

How about:

"You may not target a character if any enemy unit is closer to the firer and in Line of Sight. Disregard friendly models when determining Line of Sight in this case."

I did a lot of sniping with a Fire Prism in 6th by using LOS terrain. Rhino sniping is easier, but not the only way.

It gets a little wonky in that now you have a case where models don't count for LOS. But usually they do. Not too complicated, but I think GW is aiming for not even that complicated.

I'd take that rule over either pre or post CA rules, but it's not perfect. Nothing ever is.

It certainly isn't a Tau-only thing.

On one hand, they do like their Commanders and Drones right now (because so much of their dex is garbage).

On the other hand, those Commanders are typically going to be within 18" when they shoot. Situations where they can hide something closer than that out of LOS, and remain out of LOS after you move, and remain closer than the Commanders after they move?

I was actually thinking Windriders could really save a Warlock with that rule. But be incredibly cheesy.

This can be very easy fixed if a character needs to be 6" or less from a friendly unit to gain this defensie benefit. Boom, no more "hidden meatshields" unless you character is right at their side.

Bharring wrote:
So the rules can allow one of two beardy tactics that hurt the game:
-Rhino Sniping (was a thing in 6th, too)
-Hiding meatshields

I think the game suffers less from allowing hidden meatshields, but they both suck.

Look OUt Sir rolls were kinda janky in 6th and 7th. Not an easy thing to solve for.

You could make more complicated rules like "If all closer units are not in LOS, owning player may volenteer one for being considered in LOS", but is there really a clear, concise rule that would prevent both of the above, while not making things more complilcated.

Realistically, Look Out Sir wasn't too much of an issue in 6th/7th for many armies, and more of an annoyance. At best, you gave a Sergeant a Combi-Weapon or Meltabombs, maybe a Poweraxe for Blobguard. As for heroes, you could either just aim for killing everything around said hero (since LOS could only be allocated to the closest model in the same unit within 6"), or ignoring the character since they were usually pricier and had less wounds.

The real issue of course was the extra roll involved, and the ability for certain armies (*cough* Space Wolves) to do "musical wounds". Of course, I also remember the inverse, watching a Harlequin player one-shot a Genestealer Cult blob with Mirror of the Minds, since he stacked enough ld mods that he couldn't lose the rolloff, and the Genestealer Cultists had "unquestioning loyalty."

Personally, this is one reason I still prefered 2e/7e shooting more, though a middleground may be better. Whether it's "Take up" for special weapons, or a slightly cleaner set of casualty allocation rules, the idea of a character standing in broad daylight going "neenerneener you're not allowed to shoot me" is a killer.

8th Character rules are daft.

They should have just used this in 7th: only one character may join a unit.

Fixed, job done, very simple.

That would stop the 2++ rerollable Archon. But it'd also stop the Farseer from joining a Warlock-led squad.

This thread has the most absurdly stereotypical clickbaitey title I've seen in a while, and has about the same level of completely pointless nothingness I'd expect from such things.

But...the real question is, do Tyranids *HATE* this trick? Click to find out!

/wecandobetterDakka....

zerosignal wrote:
8th Character rules are daft.

They should have just used this in 7th: only one character may join a unit.

Fixed, job done, very simple.

Alternately, "Look Out Sir means you do not allocate wounds to a Character unless there are friendly non-character models from the same unit within 3 inches." The Genestealer Cult "unquestioning loyalty" makes this 6 inches instead.

Alternatively, just use the 8th Edition character rules but say "a character cannot be targeted unless there are no friendly units with at least three of the same keywords within 12" and also keep the 10 wound thingy where they can be targeted over 10 wounds.

This prevents things like Guilliman, who I think shares one keyword with them, from being screened by Conscripts.

It also prevents things like "oh, that character is on the opposite side of the battlefield from this unit, but because this unit is 49" away instead of 50" like the character, even if it's in completely the opposite direction, I can't shoot the character."