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I had seen in a couple of threads some people wondering about a low point-cost alternative to the Chimera. This isn't it, but seeing that and messing around with some Leman Russ kits got me thinking a bit lately about a Russ-based troop transport.

Back in WW2, there was a thing called a "Kangaroo", which was basically a type of troop transport made out of tank hulls that were usually either obsolete or too damaged to take a new turret (or both). Sometimes they were purpose-made. They're basically a tank without the turret, and you stick some infantry in there. There's a good article on them here.

Since the Russ and Chimera kits have the top hull as a separate piece, it got me thinking along those lines. I tossed together this simple profile based heavily off of the Russ:



Basically a turretless Russ that movies slightly faster, and holds between 5 and 10 models (5 seemed too few, 10 seemed like a lot for the size of a Russ hull - maybe a Malkador). Slightly slower, a bit tougher, and worse-armed than the Chimera in basically every real way (though Open Topped has its advantages, I suppose).

Assuming we were writing this up as its own real Dataslate, how would you cost this unit in points and PL? According to the AM Codex, a LRBT hull is 122 points by itself, while the Chimera is only 75. How much transport slots are worth I'm not sure - the closest comparison I have would be - I think - the Salamander and the Chimera, where losing 12 transport slots and gaining Scout Move is worth -20 points. I sort of suspect it is roughly a point per transport, maybe 15 points for the dozen slots. That implies this thing is bound to be way overcosted by my crude reckoning - 145, with hull heavy bolter and a 15 point transport option. PL...I would expect to be the same as the Chimera, at 5 - and that is probably pushing it and predicated entirely on that open topped thing being used...which is probably Bad Design.

Anyways, just something I was playing around with for fun. This isn't anything I would ever plan on taking in a real list - first off, the number of people who'd let me bring homebrew units at all is exactly 0, and I wouldn't blame them. I'd have to go and model it, too, which might actually be kinda fun. This seems like the kind of unit that would show up in set-piece narrative scenarios, rather than balanced clashes.

Thoughts? Opinions? (Both from a in-universe and on-table perspective, I'd say.)

Thanks!

M.

A russ with just it's hull mounted weapon and no side weapons or turret but with troop transport capacity? Interesting thought, if you built it and it wasn't absolute "op" I would let you play with it in narrative games personally.

I would say use the russ's stat line, add 2" to its move, and cost would be, idk, 140pts / 9pl? Finally, maybe set it up so it can't transport ogyrns or something to show capacity may be 10 but still only normal sizes can get in?

Azuza001 wrote:
A russ with just it's hull mounted weapon and no side weapons or turret but with troop transport capacity? Interesting thought, if you built it and it wasn't absolute "op" I would let you play with it in narrative games personally.

Yep, that's it in a nutshell - a Russ with no turret.

I'm not sure exactly who inside the tank fires Sponson weapons - are they their own station with dedicated crew? Is it something the driver handles? I've never had to ask that question! I suppose Sponsons would be added, but if it's a dedicated crew option it would have to be restricted like the Lasgun Array on a Chimera - can only fire when the vehicle is occupied.

Azuza001 wrote:

I would say use the russ's stat line, add 2" to its move, and cost would be, idk, 140pts / 9pl? Finally, maybe set it up so it can't transport ogyrns or something to show capacity may be 10 but still only normal sizes can get in?

I'm not sure about 2", as that puts it on the same foot as the Chimera - then again, maybe that is desirable. Right now it's at 11". At 140 points, though, that's way out - that's more than a fully kitted Chimera!

Thank you for taking a quick look, though - it's something I'd been kicking around in the back of my head for a bit and wanted to get it out.

M.

I think it's fine, though 2 comments:

1) Most Open-Topped vehicles in the game have -1 Toughness relative to their counterparts: see Basilisk/Wyvern/Hydra vs Chimera, or Atlas vs Leman Russ. That said, 1 point of toughness isn't going to make or break the rules for me!

2) I think your points reasons are fine. In fact, without weapons, I'd make it ~100. The Atlas is 98, with a heavy bolter, and while it has no transport capacity, it does have a repair rule. The only difference is that it's T7, being "open topped" kinda.

All in all, an excellent idea

If someone was going to use a Russ hull to transport troops, they might build up a superstructure to accommodate a full squad. Plus, not having to carry around the bulky ammo for the main gun would save a lot of space. I think you could reasonably say it has a capacity of 10.

The place where there ought to be a disadvantage would be embarking and disembarking. Purpose-built transports have big access doors, usually in the back, whereas the Russ chassis has its engine compartment there. Jumping in and out over the sides would be harder, especially under fire.

Unit1126PLL wrote:I think it's fine, though 2 comments:

1) Most Open-Topped vehicles in the game have -1 Toughness relative to their counterparts: see Basilisk/Wyvern/Hydra vs Chimera, or Atlas vs Leman Russ. That said, 1 point of toughness isn't going to make or break the rules for me!

2) I think your points reasons are fine. In fact, without weapons, I'd make it ~100. The Atlas is 98, with a heavy bolter, and while it has no transport capacity, it does have a repair rule. The only difference is that it's T7, being "open topped" kinda.

All in all, an excellent idea

Thanks! I thought about dropping Toughness, but I checked the Chimera and the Salamander and saw no difference; I may have chalked up the artillery variants having lower T due to all the exposed gun bits.

100 points might be fair. I'm honestly unsure how much tougher a Russ is compared to a Chimera, in real game terms The difference doesn't seem that great, especially in light of the new system (the older one had AV14 to the front, making it a Tough Nut - now, not so sure).

Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:If someone was going to use a Russ hull to transport troops, they might build up a superstructure to accommodate a full squad. Plus, not having to carry around the bulky ammo for the main gun would save a lot of space. I think you could reasonably say it has a capacity of 10.

The place where there ought to be a disadvantage would be embarking and disembarking. Purpose-built transports have big access doors, usually in the back, whereas the Russ chassis has its engine compartment there. Jumping in and out over the sides would be harder, especially under fire.

You know, that's a good point about (dis)embarking. I know you normally exit within 3" (and still have a move - IDHMBWM), so maybe something like:

Hard Clamor: Troops that disembark must be within 3" of the transport, but may not move for the rest of the turn.

Not sure about getting in, though (and I'm not sure how Normal it is for troops to get BACK in a transport once you've exited, in a real game).

M.

If you're keeping Toughness 8, I'd go for like 110 base cost, before weapons. I'd say T7 -> T8 is worth 10 points on its own. It may not seem like it helps much, but it can be the difference between getting blenderized by a whole category of anti-tank weapons: Strength 8. Missile Launchers, Bright Lances, Hellstrike Missiles, all that good stuff.

As for the embarking and disembarking - I wouldn't worry about it. 8th is supposed to be a simple game, and I imagine the troops train with their transports fairly hard, so even if it may be difficult for someone to get out of who is used to the troop ramp of a Chimera, it may just be second nature to these guys.

Yeah my 140pts was after heavy bolter, which I was figuring to be 15pts? Not sure what the actual cost is though, haven't looked at my guard codex in a while Lol. The point would be to not replace the chimera but make it a viable option. We're you thinking about keeping the option to swap heavy bolter with laz cannon?

Azuza001 wrote:
Yeah my 140pts was after heavy bolter, which I was figuring to be 15pts? Not sure what the actual cost is though, haven't looked at my guard codex in a while Lol. The point would be to not replace the chimera but make it a viable option. We're you thinking about keeping the option to swap heavy bolter with laz cannon?

The HB is 8, while the Lascannon is 20. Good catch on that by the way - that should be an option. It should basically have all the Russ options - just no turret, cannon, or roof. Sponsons I guess depends on how you interpret who uses those :p Actually, having a lascannon on the thing would make it very useful as a tank-hunting transport of sorts...

M.

You know, you're getting scarily close to the Dracosan - I have 4 of them.

They are a Horus Heresy transport based on the Malcador chassis, with armour 13/12/11, 20-man capacity with a twin lascannon, and 5 hull points.

They could replace the 20-man capacity and twin lascannon for a 10 man capacity and demolisher cannon, for 30 points.

I still have 4 Dracosans and I love them - it's about time the Malcador had a transport variant. Sadly, not available for 40k armies.